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Old 11-02-2014, 06:55 PM   #21
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hi my name is nathan. recently got into the trawler world this summer. total newbie but willing to learn. Our boat has a ford lehman 120. i went to change the injector pump oil and noticed there was no drain plug, like your boat ours ran with no injector pump oil likely for the last 100 hrs. sad face. anyway it ran fine with no hiccups. we got new drain plug and filled. thinking about running it as is. Just wonder how you made out or did you rebuild your pump?
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Old 11-02-2014, 07:35 PM   #22
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Greetings,
Welcome aboard.
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Old 11-03-2014, 08:31 AM   #23
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I have a Ford/Sabre 120 and it has a return line and the pump uses the engine oil thus requiring no separate oil changes.

That said I did remove the pump and sent it out for an overhaul (.7 boat units +-) this was due to a bit of a fuel leak at one of the HP fittings that was not fixable. WOW what a difference the rebuild made, better running, faster starts and smoother with less fuel consumption.

I was told the pumps should be rebuilt around 2500-3000 hours.

If you do remove the pump do not allow the engine to move as the pump will be returned in exactly the same position and therefor the timing will be the same.

Send it to a company that works on farming and industrial equiptment not a marine company unless you want to pay more.
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Old 12-20-2015, 08:56 PM   #24
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I have twin FL 120s on a 1979 GB. I purchased the vessel last year. I ran it for about 30 hours with no issue. When starting the engines a couple of weeks ago the starboard enginet missed slightly for 30 seconds or so on start up so I decided to change the injector pump oil. When changing the oil on the starboard engine, I noticed a hose from the breather/overflow plug to the return fuel line. The port engine does not have this set up. The oil was more like diesel viscosity when it was removed. I have not heard of this set up, does this sound correct? I do not know the last time the oil was changed. The model is the Minemic -Cav England. I ran the engines after the oil change and it started great, no missing. I will check it again after 20-30 hours to see how the oil looks. Any suggestions.

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Old 12-20-2015, 09:36 PM   #25
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Charlie-- The setup you describe sounds very strange and I cannot fathom why anyone would do that.

Many years ago Bob Smith of American Diesel suggested to me a way to eliminate the problem of the injection pump blowing oul out the side-mounted breather bolt and down the breather tube into the engin's drip pan by blanking off the breather altogether. He explained the proper procedure to follow and I followed his instructions.

The pump case still has to breathe, of couse, and he said to accomplish this by drilling a small hole through the filler bolt in the middle of the screw slot. When I removed the filler bolt from each engine's pump to do this I was surprised to find someone had already drilled this hole in both bolts.

The lube oil in the pump is there to lube the drive mechanism in the lower part of the pump. The injection plungers running up and down in their bores are lubed by the fuel they are pumping, which is why fuel lubricity is very important in these old jerk-injection diesels.

Over time the plungers and the walls of the bores they run in wear and this allows more and more leak-down; a bit of fuel gets past the plungers and drops into the lube oil down below. This gradually thins out the lube oil which over time can reduce its effectiveness as a lubricant. This is the reason for the 50 hour oil change interval for the pump's lube oil; even with some leak-down occurring the interval ensures the pump's lube oil will do a proper job of lubing the drive mechanism.

Eventually-- it's the nature of the beast-- the leak-down and oil dilution will become severe enough to require the pump to be overhauled.

So why anyone would want to accelerate the dilution of the pump's lube oil by connecting the breather to the engine's fuel retun line makes no sense to me at all.

First photo is the pump on our port engine with the breather blanked off per Bob's instructions (it's not just a bolt in the hole). Second photo is the fill plug for one of our injection pumps shwing the breather hole I didn't have to drill myself.

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Old 12-20-2015, 09:45 PM   #26
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Two observations on the above based on the October 1978 Lehman Operators Manual and Parts Identification Book.
1. (P16) "An overflow tube is provided on the sump of some injection pumps to prevent overfilling......a...container can be used to catch the overflow oil until level in sump is balanced". Nothing is said about connecting it to drain elsewhere. Perhaps experiences after 1978 led to changed advice.
2. (P24) (In relation to the Simms fuel pump) "Oil should be changed after initial 15 hours operation and at 200 hour intervals thereafter". [Query, is this the same pump, pic looks like it]
The Book also advises engine oil changes at 200 hours(I`m sure changing at 100 hours is common and no bad thing to do).
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Old 12-20-2015, 09:54 PM   #27
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Thank you Marin. I had seen some of your earlier post on this and I could not understand it either. The hose is definitely plumbed into the return fuel line. I do have a small pin hole dilled into the fill plug. I am going to check to see for certain that it is the breather overflow plug. It looks to be slightly off from your picture, but the only port/plug on the bottom left side, below the two bolts on the above plate. I suppose I should find a plug and remove the hose. Thank you very much for your quick reply. Live and learn. Charlie
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Old 12-20-2015, 09:57 PM   #28
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Here is the relevant section of our FL120 operator's manual. Note the oil change interval.
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Old 12-20-2015, 10:13 PM   #29
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Marin, it may help to establish whether "50" was published before "200", or vice versa, as the injector pump oil hours change period. Mine is dated on the bottom left corner of the cover as "4C61-E Oct. 1978"
Scanning the page is beyond my skills, but that`s definitely the date. I also spotted a reference to pre 1977 engine ID plate location(p7), which suggests the book gets updated periodically.
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Old 12-20-2015, 10:24 PM   #30
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Bruce, thank you for responding. My manual also stars 50 hours. I do not know the published date. As to the earlier question, my pump looks the same in the picture, but named minemec - Cav England.
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Old 12-20-2015, 10:48 PM   #31
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Hi TL, A reason I suspect 200 hours could be an update on 50, is that your boat and Marin`s predate my 1981 boat. It could also be an updated pump with longer change intervals, though the Manual does not mention that, but does mention ID plate location. What date is your Manual?
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Old 12-20-2015, 11:19 PM   #32
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Our boat and manuals are from 1973 but the manual I scanned the page from off the Grand Banks owners forum is dated 1986.
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Old 12-21-2015, 01:31 AM   #33
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Originally Posted by Texas Lady View Post
Thank you Marin. I had seen some of your earlier post on this and I could not understand it either. The hose is definitely plumbed into the return fuel line. I do have a small pin hole dilled into the fill plug. I am going to check to see for certain that it is the breather overflow plug. It looks to be slightly off from your picture, but the only port/plug on the bottom left side, below the two bolts on the above plate. I suppose I should find a plug and remove the hose. Thank you very much for your quick reply. Live and learn. Charlie
Can you post a picture of your pump?
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Old 12-21-2015, 02:35 AM   #34
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It looks to be slightly off from your picture, but the only port/plug on the bottom left side, below the two bolts on the above plate.
The Ford of England Dorset diesel (base engine for the Ford Lehman 120 and a number of other marinized versions by other companies), was used in a wide variety of machines both in England and in the US. Initially trucks and then generators, cranes, pumps, agricultural equipment (some old-timers in England still refer to this particular engine as the "Ford combine engine") and other industrial applications. The Minemec/CAV/Simms injection pump was in production for many years and undoubtedly experienced a number of minor changes as these companies bought each other out, merged, changed ownership, etc.

So plugs or other details in different positions are not too suprising.

However the basic function remains the same, so it still seems very odd to want to make a connection of any kind between the body of the pump and the engine's fuel return line which normally goes to a fuel tank. You want to keep fuel out of the pump's lube oil, not put it in.

As a point of interest the in-line injection pump on the later Ford Dover diesel, the base engine for the FL135, does not have an isolated lube oil supply but instead is lubed from the engine's oil sump. So the oil dilution issue does not have the same significance as on the FL120 since any fuel leak-down is going into three gallons of oil, not a half a quart or so.

It is possible to plumb the FL120s injection pump to be lubed from the engine but according to the people on the Grand Banks owners forum who have seen or inherited engines set up this way, it's a bit of a Rube Goldberg setup and most of them recommend against it. The ones I have corresponded with in England changed their pumps back to being self-contained.
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Old 12-21-2015, 10:57 AM   #35
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I just took Bob Smith's seminar on the FL. He recommended 50 hour oil changes. He said that over time if the oil still is undiluted at 50 hours, then you could stretch the oil change out a little bit, but each engine is a little different and you need to establish the hours before the oil is diluted with diesel.
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Old 12-21-2015, 11:06 AM   #36
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I just took Bob Smith's seminar on the FL. He recommended 50 hour oil changes. He said that over time if the oil still is undiluted at 50 hours, then you could stretch the oil change out a little bit, but each engine is a little different and you need to establish the hours before the oil is diluted with diesel.
And for that reason I have stretched my change interval to 100 hours.
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Old 12-21-2015, 12:59 PM   #37
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And for that reason I have stretched my change interval to 100 hours.


a simple blotter test will show if fuel if starting to accumulate in the oil...I am not sure my nose isn't good enough.

Poor Man's Oil Analysis - The Motor Oil Evaluator

one of many explanations.
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Old 12-21-2015, 01:59 PM   #38
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Thanks to all of you for the comments. I spoke with Bryan at American Diesel. He was as confused about this as the rest of us. I will take a picture and send to him and post here. It sounds like I need to add the plug and drop the hose an ensure the fill cap has a hole drilled in it. The good news was that after the oil change the engine started, did not miss and ran great.


Maybe someone theorized any excess fluids would be diesel and it would not hurt to return it. Who knows.
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Old 12-21-2015, 02:08 PM   #39
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Thanks to all of you for the comments. I spoke with Bryan at American Diesel. He was as confused about this as the rest of us. I will take a picture and send to him and post here. It sounds like I need to add the plug and drop the hose an ensure the fill cap has a hole drilled in it. The good news was that after the oil change the engine started, did not miss and ran great.


Maybe someone theorized any excess fluids would be diesel and it would not hurt to return it. Who knows.
Heck if it was just venting a little oil from excess or expansion....the dang thing only holds 15 OZ so better to the fuel tank than in the bilge...unless you were capturing it to see if there was enough excess overflow to signal too much diesel dilution.
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Old 12-21-2015, 02:17 PM   #40
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The leak down fuel from the plungers in their bores mixes with and dilutes the lube oil underneath. It doesn't float on top of it or anything. I would be more concerned with a connection from the pump breather to the engine's fuel return line putting fuel into the injection pump's lube oil. It's not going to carry any fuel away from the pump.

All in all, it seems like a very poorly thought through armchair theory to me. And the fact it was not done on the stock engine--- the fuel return and in-line injection pump are of course components of the base Ford engine, they are not part of the marinization kit-- would indicate that this is not a beneficial modification. Otherwise Ford would have designed it into the engine in the first place.
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