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Old 09-16-2014, 01:05 PM   #81
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And common sense should tell you that you change ALL your fuel filters before heading out on any long trip unless you've just changed them very recently. Especially if you're crossing an ocean. And even more so if you're running a single screw vessel. That is cruising/mechanics 101 in my book.
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Having a single engine boat is a red herring in this case. If fuel quality was going to kill one engine, it would have killed both engines. I know of a boat where the owner killed his engine by using Raycor's that were filtering too much. He thought filtering the fuel from the day tank should be at the same filtration amount as the engine filters. His engine died twice if I remember right before he figured out the problem.

By died I mean he needed a new fuel pump, and I think, new injectors. He ran into other problems as well. At first, he thought it was bad fuel from dirty fuel tanks but it turned out the Raycor's starved the fuel pump and killed the engine. Dead. Thankfully, the trawler had sail capability which got her back to port.

If the boat had had twin engines, he would have killed both of them. And he did kill those engines. Twins would have just cost him more money to buy, run, and in his case, repair.

My two cents regarding redundant propulsion is to have a sail rig not another engine.

I once got water in the fuel to my tractor. I am not sure if the fuel was sabotaged, no I am not being paranoid there was, shall I say, a situation going on, but that is a long story, or if the water was sucked into the tank at start up. The fuel fill area on the tractor has a "dam" and a drain to allow spilled fuel to drain off the tractor in a specific way. The tractor was rained on, the drain hole was blocked with leaves and the "dam" fill up with water. The tractor engine stopped after start up due to water in the fuel. I don't know if someone put water in the tank or if the water was sucked into the fuel tank from the dammed up dam.

I kinda doubt the water in the dam idea because I would not have thought the water would have quickly gotten into the engine. I had to drain the fuel tank, fuel filter housing and replace the filter. PITA but it did not take too long.

Later,
Dan
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Old 09-16-2014, 01:22 PM   #82
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I will ONLY use and install the Davco Detroit Diesel type of filter units. Why the "yacht" industry still uses the POS racor escapes me. Why anyone would keep the racor unit on a boat for any length of time after purchase is beyond my abilty to understand. At anytime a like new Davco 382 can be had on ebay for less than $200. They can be bought at a big truck salvage for even less. Filters can be bought by the case for less than 1 racor 1000 filter. The filter is visible and as FF said, you know exactly when it needs changed. You cant see the water/sludge with the 382, but, Davco makes another canister type filter unit with an identical clear "bowl" that attatches to the bottom (just like the one on top but no filter) with a drain valve so you can see any acumulation and drain it. On the 382 you just open the valve and let it drain until no more crap comes out. Parts/filters are available at any good truck stop in just about any developed country. And they dont leak air, unlike racors.
I have never heard of Davco but I just looked them up. Very interesting. They have a marine version, DAVCO Technology, LLC but I could not find a price.

They look like the fuel filter setup on my tractor except the fuel filter is on upside down. The tractor filter has a ring that will float in water so it is easy to see if there is a contamination issue.

One buy building a steel trawler is a heavy equipment owner. He installed a manually powered fuel pump in the engine room to back up his powered fuel pump. The manual pump is used on farms and by contractors and is very reliable and it will build up your muscles as you pump fuel! BTDT.

His installation was so danged obvious, I was wondering why I had never seen or heard about it before!

Later,
Dan
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Old 09-16-2014, 01:29 PM   #83
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Sometimes it's all about marketing.
Haven't I said that already?

I agree with the above, but did I tell you about marketing?

Oh well.
moving on

I got 202 liters (53 gal) of fuel today.
Went into the tank that I'd cleaned with the bucket head!

Started polishing it and in two hours filter went from 4" to 10" Hg.
Changed filter, and in the next three hours it stayed at 3.8"

So, I'm now polishing the other tank.

I also changed the Racor that's been used for two hours of running time.

We'll see.
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Old 09-16-2014, 02:03 PM   #84
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I've not heard of anyone "killing" an engine due to being over filtered, or even starved for fuel. You just dont starve a diesel engine to death. If that were the case plugged filters would have killed most older engines by now, hasnt happend. On the issue of stopping both engines on a twin engined boat, if that happens its just poor engineering on the owners part. Why would anyone have a backup plan with a common achilles heel. You certainly dont have just one start battery, even if it would work 99% of the time. Its simple to design 2 stand alone fuel systems into a twin (or even single for that matter) engine boat.
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Old 09-16-2014, 02:42 PM   #85
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I've not heard of anyone "killing" an engine due to being over filtered, or even starved for fuel. You just dont starve a diesel engine to death. If that were the case plugged filters would have killed most older engines by now, hasnt happend. On the issue of stopping both engines on a twin engined boat, if that happens its just poor engineering on the owners part. Why would anyone have a backup plan with a common achilles heel. You certainly dont have just one start battery, even if it would work 99% of the time. Its simple to design 2 stand alone fuel systems into a twin (or even single for that matter) engine boat.
I had not either. I could have seen myself doing what the owner in question had done.

When I was looking at the filter system you mentioned I found this,
Baldwin Filters | Tech Tips

Quote:
It is important to use the correct fuel filters in every application. Use of fuel filters that are not designed for the specific application may cause the engine to run poorly or may damage sensitive fuel system components.

Use of a fuel filter that is more efficient at removing contaminant than what is specified by the original equipment (OE) manufacturer may lead to premature plugging, thus shortening service life. Plugged filters may also cause the flow of fuel to be restricted as it passes through the filter media.
I think the owner used 10 micron Racors instead of 30 microns specified by the engine company. 10 microns are specified for the on engine filters so the owner figured it would be good to use 10 microns to filter the fuel going to the engines. I could see myself thinking the same way.

How do you have two engines running without using the same fuel and fuel filter system? In the case I just mentioned, even if one had two day tanks, do any boats have two day tanks, the owner would have installed the wrong filters on both systems resulting in two dead engines.

In a situation like Dauntless experienced, if the water contamination got bad enough the engine(s) would have had problems. I dont' see how twins are more reliable than singles when fuel quality is the most likely problem for a diesel.

The only way to minimize fuel quality issues is to have completely separate fuel tank systems supplying each engine and having enough fuel storage that allows you to fill up one tank system but not the other at a fuel stop. I don't see how that is possible when one is making a passage that is going to consume most of the fuel on board. In a trip across the Atlantic, many boats would have to/want to fill/top off at Bermuda and/or the Azores.

The common failure point on a motorized boat is the fuel. Course sail boats can have sails fail, the wind fail, and bad fuel.

Later,
Dan
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Old 09-16-2014, 03:22 PM   #86
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A dirty filter is nothing more than a more "efficient" filter. It will not damage the engine. Eventually it will reduce power output to the point of not running, but will not harm the engine. Countless millions of diesel engines have and continue to experience just this. No harm done. Over filtration could cause a loss in power but switching from a 30 to a 10 micron filter and loosing power would seem to me to be a filter mesh area issue, just not enough filter area for the required amount of fuel. Most ocean capable boats have at least 2 large fuel tanks. Mine does. It would be possible to add 2 day tanks in most boats. My trawler has two 125 gallon mid tanks that get cleaned fuel from the bulk tanks. Fuel is moved from them into the day tanks, all of which is totally seperate. It would be difficult to retrofit this into an existing design. But I would think a pair of day tanks could be fitted somehow. In my system I can clean the fuel in the bulk tanks by recirculating it thru an RCI 1000 "filter" which is really just a water/crap seperator. It will remove water and rocks, but is very good at removing water, not so much at finer solids. A centrifuge would have a very difficult job to do on a moving boat. Mostly wouldnt work to good, if at all. I have a pair of big Davcos befor the transfer into the mid tanks so any fuel going there is "probably" very clean. Another set from there to the day tanks so that fuel is absolutely "probably" very clean, and another set of Davcos between the day tanks and each engine. I'm "almost positive" that by the time my engines get there fuel, its clean. And totally seperate between engines, because I'm not "absolutely positive".
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Old 09-16-2014, 05:12 PM   #87
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They made it very clear that the new engines require air, fuel and POWER to run. No power and the engine will not run.
Did you ask them if they will run on water?
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Old 09-16-2014, 05:25 PM   #88
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Having a single engine boat is a red herring in this case. If fuel quality was going to kill one engine, it would have killed both engines.
It's not a red herring at all. And bad fuel doesn't kill both engines at the exact same time in many cases. Many times one acts up first.

But if you only have one engine, bad fuel is always going to effect you main engine first.

But I'm not debating the twins or single view point. In fact I'm pro single engine. What I'm saying is if you're going to cross oceans, having clean fuel, knowing how to keep it clean and knowing how to monitor it's condition is critical to say the least.
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Old 09-16-2014, 05:32 PM   #89
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Whatever about the crew, you are seriously screwed if you engine stops; you'll only get a few chances at a restart before your battery is dead.

So....

I'd make sure the diesel had a mechanical fuel cutoff so the engine will keep on running even without power.

I'd keep fully filtered fuel in a separate tank which is not connected directly to the main tank; this fuel will not need further filtering to keep the engine running.

I would have a totally separate main tanks, then you can polish it and filter it, strain it through muslin if necessary to get it clean in an emergency if the you've loaded on contaminated diesel.

...otherwise your filters may get blocked and STOP your engine!!!

NB: there's no filter between the day tank and the engine.

Why no filter between the day tank and the main tank.... The MOST important placement of filters is between the day tank and the main. The post day tank filters seem important too but nothing like pre?
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