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Old 09-13-2014, 04:21 PM   #21
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Rusty Barge

Check out a Krogen. It's pretty much set up as you describe only no day tank.

Everyone needs to keep in mind that in spite of the water in fuel, the sea state, blah, blah, blah
The system acted as it was designed.

To many folks continually seek perfect solutions.

Including our President. Thinking and doing must be balanced, otherwise it's just mental masturbation (an old AF term)
I used to fly a single engined aircraft over the Irish Sea; two magnetos, mechanical lift pump and electrical boost pump, two separate switchable tanks: but the most important feature was fuel drains in the bottom of the tanks. Before every flight you drain off the water into a clear bottle to see how much is in the tank. If the engine quits you are as good as dead after 30 mins in the water, that's if you survive the belly flop landing into the sea.

At least In a boat you don't die of thirst for several days....
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Old 09-13-2014, 04:41 PM   #22
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Richard,

Do your Racor (primary) filters have water sensors.. and did they go off when you had water in them ( I know the pic was from the secondary on the engine ) ?

I know Racor's as designed will hold a fair amount of water before parring it down stream to the engine.
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Old 09-13-2014, 06:05 PM   #23
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Originally Posted by Wxx3 View Post
Rusty Barge

Check out a Krogen. It's pretty much set up as you describe only no day tank.

Everyone needs to keep in mind that in spite of the water in fuel, the sea state, blah, blah, blah
The system acted as it was designed.

To many folks continually seek perfect solutions.
It's not about seeking perfection. Far from it. It's about using common sense.

And common sense should tell you that you change ALL your fuel filters before heading out on any long trip unless you've just changed them very recently. Especially if you're crossing an ocean. And even more so if you're running a single screw vessel. That is cruising/mechanics 101 in my book.

Since you didn't change those filters before you crossed you have no idea how much or how long that water was in those filters when you started. And if that water had gotten past those final filters, things would have gotten very interesting very fast. Old school Lehman or not.
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Old 09-13-2014, 06:26 PM   #24
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I have two 25 gallon feed tanks (1 for each engine) in my trawler. They are under seats in the mid saloon. Gravity feed to each engine, valved to supply both from either one, but designed to be completely separate. two 400 gallon "bulk tanks" feed two 125 gallon "holding" tanks. The bulk tanks are the only tanks that get new fuel. Its filtered and passed to the holding tanks and filtered again on its way to the "burn" tanks. I can clean 250 gallons to have on the ready. Every tank has large access plates into each chamber and are easy to clean. I dont like Racor filters, not the filter itself but the filter canisters, its a very poor design in my opinion. I prefer the Davco filter setup. Its far superior to even the Racor 1000. I have 3 sets of SeaPro dual filter units, One for each engine (after the burn tank) and one befor the transfer pumps (12 volt and 120 volt gear rotor type). The 120 pump is mostly used for circulating/moving/cleaning fuel. It seems complicated but is basically simple. It does take up a lot of space. But like sail inventory on a sailboat, if thats what moves you then you need to make room for it.
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Old 09-13-2014, 06:31 PM   #25
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I'm a full time crusier, my boat is my home, currently sitting in New England with winter coming on soon. I have been stressing and worrying about the trip down the ICW to Florida alone. Thank you, Dauntless for putting in words what I have been thinking.

"The number one being that I did not have to worry about someone else, whether it was their safety, their happiness or just having the desire to land here versus there.

I've always known that in this case, this is my weakness, catering to others, far beyond what is reasonable or even expected.

So that's what I was trying to get across.

I love my Lehman AND the Krogen.
They both got me here and they would have done the same for all of YOU."


I have a Lehman and will only be a mostly few hundred feet from land on the ICW and can toss the hook each night, not crossing the Atlantic.
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Old 09-13-2014, 06:37 PM   #26
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I have two 25 gallon feed tanks (1 for each engine) in my trawler. They are under seats in the mid saloon. Gravity feed to each engine, valved to supply both from either one, but designed to be completely separate. two 400 gallon "bulk tanks" feed two 125 gallon "holding" tanks. The bulk tanks are the only tanks that get new fuel. Its filtered and passed to the holding tanks and filtered again on its way to the "burn" tanks. I can clean 250 gallons to have on the ready. Every tank has large access plates into each chamber and are easy to clean. I dont like Racor filters, not the filter itself but the filter canisters, its a very poor design in my opinion. I prefer the Davco filter setup. Its far superior to even the Racor 1000. I have 3 sets of SeaPro dual filter units, One for each engine (after the burn tank) and one befor the transfer pumps (12 volt and 120 volt gear rotor type). The 120 pump is mostly used for circulating/moving/cleaning fuel. It seems complicated but is basically simple. It does take up a lot of space. But like sail inventory on a sailboat, if thats what moves you then you need to make room for it.
Sounds like a sensible set up.
sucking dirty fuel from main tank directly to the engine through filters that can block sounds dangerous on a sea passage with only one engine.

Even a mini-day tank with say 4 gals would give you a couple of hours running, enough time to unblock the system and change the filters without stopping the engine.

It's not rocket science having a separate clean fuel tank.
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Old 09-13-2014, 06:52 PM   #27
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Or just have two tanks that have a proper sump so nothing can grow in them. That is my strategy. After 2000hrs, look down into bottom of tank and still shiny aluminum.
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Old 09-13-2014, 08:28 PM   #28
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A bad load of fuel will still shut you down. It will happen at the worst possible time, in the worst weather, on a lee shore, with huge rocks and bigger breakers. A small tank above the engine full of positively clean fuel is worth it weight in (you pick) at that time. Single handed and single engined makes it even more important. I do agree with the old saying "better lucky than good" and the better I prepare the luckier I get !!!!
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Old 09-13-2014, 09:48 PM   #29
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Richard,

Do your Racor (primary) filters have water sensors.. and did they go off when you had water in them ( I know the pic was from the secondary on the engine ) ?

I know Racor's as designed will hold a fair amount of water before parring it down stream to the engine.
HOLLYWOOD
The water probes and alarms are money well spent in my opinion. And more worth whiled than the vacuum gauges as well.

Based on what was found in the secondaries, those Racors had at some point gone passed there water retaining capacity and let water get through to the engine filters. As this case shows, anytime you a find significant amount of water in your first set of filters you have to suspect it's gotten down stream and act accordingly. Which in this case would have been to drain fuel out of the bottom of the engine filters into a clear glass or plastic jar / tub while the engine was running.

It would be interesting to know if the water in the fuel is fresh or salt. It may have been coming in from the deck fittings or vent lines in the rough weather and the fuel bought in Horta was uncontaminated. All you have to do is let it settle out and then taste it to tell in most cases.
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Old 09-14-2014, 08:40 AM   #30
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Thanks all,

I'm not disagreeing with you, but I think you are also not listening very well.

I will add water sensors to the Racors. They have the hole for them and I would have caught it sooner.

It was salt water. I tasted it.

Probably won't do anything else.

Again, EVERYTHING on the boat could be better, newer, have more redundancy. In fact, why not just hire a crew to do it all.
Wait, why not just go on someone else's boat?

Dauntless has gone over 11,000 miles, 2000 engine hours and 4,000 gallons of fuel, without the engine ever stopping without human intervention.
Think what that means.

For better or for worse, this is the system I like and can afford.

Nuff said
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Old 09-14-2014, 08:45 AM   #31
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Thanks all,

I'm not disagreeing with you, but I think you are also not listening very well.

I will add water sensors to the Racors. They have the hole for them and I would have caught it sooner.

It was salt water. I tasted it.

Probably won't do anything else.

Again, EVERYTHING on the boat could be better, newer, have more redundancy. In fact, why not just hire a crew to do it all.
Wait, why not just go on someone else's boat?

Dauntless has gone over 11,000 miles, 2000 engine hours and 4,000 gallons of fuel, without the engine ever stopping without human intervention.
Think what that means.

For better or for worse, this is the system I like and can afford.

Nuff said
What ever about the integrity of the fuel system, if the engine does stop and you are unable to restart after a few goes, what are you going to do with a flat battery?

You need one these, definitely: Spring starters Simms, Lucas, CAV mechanical starter motors from Kineteco Home Page.

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Old 09-14-2014, 09:59 AM   #32
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Again, EVERYTHING on the boat could be better, newer, have more redundancy. In fact, why not just hire a crew to do it all.
Wait, why not just go on someone else's boat?

....

For better or for worse, this is the system I like and can afford.
Whenever I see hardware redundancy mentioned, 5 things pop into my mind:
1. Space
2. Weight
3. Power
4. $$$ (and even mucho $$$)
5. Complexity

There is just so much you can safely pack into a 42' boot even if you have an unlimited budget. Redundancy is over rated.
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Old 09-14-2014, 10:15 AM   #33
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I don't think redundancy can ever be overrated...but I agree it isn't always practical.

Like many things... it should be a goal only till it is more burden than benefit.
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Old 09-14-2014, 11:00 AM   #34
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Wow all the armchair experts are out in force on this one!

HE MADE THE CROSSING WITH HIS SYSTEM AS INSTALLED!
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Old 09-14-2014, 11:18 AM   #35
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What ever about the integrity of the fuel system, if the engine does stop and you are unable to restart after a few goes, what are you going to do with a flat battery?

You need one these, definitely: Spring starters Simms, Lucas, CAV mechanical starter motors from Kineteco Home Page.


he has a genset.. why does he need to worry about the starting bank going flat?
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Old 09-14-2014, 11:20 AM   #36
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Richard, to think they were selling that crap. What was the cost per gallon in Horta for this stuff. Glad it all worked out and to me there was nothing wrong with your system. It did what it should. I always am the culprit creating an issue that really isn't one without my help.
I can't imagine doing this in those conditions and not making an oh crap.
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Old 09-14-2014, 11:24 AM   #37
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It's possible to get crap fuel anywhere...

I'm going to add to my list of pre-departure for offshore .....fuel polishing...either internally or by a company doing the service.

Well at least I'll think about it a lot more and weight the plusses/minuses.
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Old 09-14-2014, 11:26 AM   #38
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he has a genset.. why does he need to worry about the starting bank going flat?
HOLLYWOOD
He doesn't really. I'd have been more worried about water F-ing up the injection pump and/or injectors.

Hopefully he will find the source of the salt water intrusion and seal it off for future rouge water passages. It could be as simple as replacing the O-ring on the fuel fill cap.
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Old 09-14-2014, 11:31 AM   #39
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Capt Bill11,
hmm, good point. I was thinking the water was in the fuel when he bought it but given the conditions you have a really good point.
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Old 09-14-2014, 11:35 AM   #40
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he has a genset.. why does he need to worry about the starting bank going flat?
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Genset will stop too with dirty fuel.
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