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Old 03-08-2014, 08:41 PM   #21
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For what it's worth, I think their builds are first rate. The build quality is outstanding, and all the equipment choices are top shelf. We have been very pleased with ours which is a 2009 model.

It's just one consideration, but take a look at the weight of a Grand Banks compared to a similarly sized Marlow or Horizon or other. The difference is all in the mass of the structure.
I also agree they are a well built boat.
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Old 03-08-2014, 09:42 PM   #22
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You just hit the other leading one on our list. The Grand Banks Aleutian 59. The only concern I have on Grand Banks is the health of the company itself.
Hopefully unrelated, but the Grand Banks website has been down for many hours that I am aware of, maybe more.
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Old 03-08-2014, 10:06 PM   #23
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The only concern I have on Grand Banks is the health of the company itself.
I haven't looked into it at all really, but are any of the boat builders doing anything other than just barely holding on? Is GB really in any different shape than the others under discussion? As a public company the ugliness is laid out for all to see, where most of the other companies under discussion are private and disclose nothing but happy thoughts.

They are not a fit for what you are looking for, but I can say that Nordhavn is heating up. I've been to the yard in China twice now and both times there have been at least 10 boats in build. It's nothing compared to the go-go days, but I think better than many,
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Old 03-08-2014, 11:20 PM   #24
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Hopefully unrelated, but the Grand Banks website has been down for many hours that I am aware of, maybe more.
I noticed that earlier. Probably coincidence in all ways as it appears to be a server issue. They are hosted by Zerigo.
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Old 03-08-2014, 11:40 PM   #25
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I haven't looked into it at all really, but are any of the boat builders doing anything other than just barely holding on? Is GB really in any different shape than the others under discussion? As a public company the ugliness is laid out for all to see, where most of the other companies under discussion are private and disclose nothing but happy thoughts.

They are not a fit for what you are looking for, but I can say that Nordhavn is heating up. I've been to the yard in China twice now and both times there have been at least 10 boats in build. It's nothing compared to the go-go days, but I think better than many,
Actually many are doing ok today. Most have made some progress since hitting bottom. Also, many have fewer internal battles being waged over control. Leading shareholder and CEO trying to sell, board turns down offer, he is fired. He recently got himself back on the board.

Now, that's not to say they are alone. Several builders have been sold. I know at least four in the US for sale today. There are a couple of US builders who seem to be nearly all commercial now. Nordhavn has openly written about the challenge when the market dropped and getting through it, a very open disclosure that I found refreshing. Meanwhile investors have purchased some companies and it's to be determined how that works out.

Now one thing GB has been successful in doing to this point is selling more stock when they must to raise money. How many times you can do that I don't know. But as a result, they are not short of cash today as many companies find themselves. While they have cut a lot of expenses, raised money by selling their Singapore plant, and made other moves, their costs of manufacturing still appear high to me. Going through a dealer network as they do also puts margins under pressure.

I follow closely some of the brands that have so much heritage. I want to see Hatteras succeed as I do Grand Banks. I'd hate to see Burger disappear. I would hate to see a brand like Nordhavn in trouble. Or Fleming or Kadey Krogen. While there are Chris Craft and Donzi today they aren't the ones that once were. No more loyal groups than the old Chris Craft and Post fans. And when one does die, I don't accept blaming the economy alone because others did something better or different that kept them going. Glastron and Larson were once bigger than Bayliner and Sea Ray.
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Old 03-09-2014, 08:49 AM   #26
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The quality and reputation of Fleming are great. The 55' a bit on the small side and the 65' with the 71 LOA a bit large, but not out of reason. The new 58' interesting. The one place the Fleming comes up a little short of what we'd like is the speed. However, I notice on the 58' they are offering optional MAN 800 HP's over the Cummins 500's. We had looked at Fleming but didn't realize they had the 58 now. Definitely worthy of consideration.

58 Moves to one or our current top 3 under consideration.

I had forgotten about the new 58' -- so if you go that route, take delivery here and all the dealer's underwater pre-delivery work will happen at the marina we're in... and I'll help you with the christening ceremony!

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Old 03-09-2014, 04:47 PM   #27
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I had forgotten about the new 58' -- so if you go that route, take delivery here and all the dealer's underwater pre-delivery work will happen at the marina we're in... and I'll help you with the christening ceremony!

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Well, that's very kind of you. Now have to warn you, we don't break champagne bottles over our boats. Prefer to drink the champagne. Hope that works for you.
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Old 03-09-2014, 04:55 PM   #28
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Well, that's very kind of you. Now have to warn you, we don't break champagne bottles over our boats. Prefer to drink the champagne. Hope that works for you.
You don't need to break a bottle. Just pour Neptune/Poseidon a serving.

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Old 03-09-2014, 05:25 PM   #29
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You don't need to break a bottle. Just pour Neptune/Poseidon a serving.

Wifey B: Well, we can't say here how we really christen our boats.....let's just say the tribute isn't to Neptune but to Venus, Aphrodite and a bit to Eros, Cupid, Himeros, Pothos, Peitho, Philotes, Hera, and Suadela. And those are just the Greek and Roman.....hehe

Since I don't know the superstitions of christening and you say pouring works, is it the same if you drink it and then......you know what......into the water? I'm guessing not.

Actually I do know much of the tradition. As it originated with ships I believe it is really to take place when the boat is first launched or floated. The logic was the extra stress hitting the water the first time put on a ship.

Am I correct that to appease Neptune, you pour the champagne on the bow and also place green leaves to insure safe return?

I do know how superstitious many are over name changes and retain names on boats that have absolutely no meaning to them. Things like names of kids or something related to occupation.

We do express our thanks that we are fortunate enough to have a boat and our hopes that no harm falls to anyone with it's use. Just really reminders to ourselves to take appropriate precautions and use it wisely.

Guess now I've taken this even further off topic but since it's my hubby's thread, it will be ok....
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Old 03-10-2014, 06:27 AM   #30
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Well, that's very kind of you. Now have to warn you, we don't break champagne bottles over our boats. Prefer to drink the champagne. Hope that works for you.

Absolutely! Gotta have priorities!

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Old 03-10-2014, 07:04 AM   #31
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You just hit the other leading one on our list. The Grand Banks Aleutian 59. The only concern I have on Grand Banks is the health of the company itself.
Isn't Hatteras done too? I thought they closed up shop a couple of months ago in New Bern and sold off assets to a company that was going to hack them up. I know Brunswick sold them last year and they laid off 150-ish people. I hope I am wrong.
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Old 03-10-2014, 07:36 AM   #32
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Isn't Hatteras done too? I thought they closed up shop a couple of months ago in New Bern and sold off assets to a company that was going to hack them up. I know Brunswick sold them last year and they laid off 150-ish people. I hope I am wrong.
Fortunately, you are wrong. Hatteras and Cabo were sold to an investment firm, Versa. It's a bit early to know how the changes will go. Brunswick had reduced to just a passive custodian and stripped the lines of both builders. There are definitely some new designs under way. A 70 MY is one I'm aware of and probably the first that will hit. Hatteras has also made some dealer network changes. I would think short term all will be ok. I would think the long term picture is to be determined. Versa could revitalize them. They could make no changes in which case things would continue to slide. Or they could do something disruptive. You never know with an acquisition. But certainly they bought intending to move the company forward. The word I've gotten from the streets, people who know and have talked to friends who work there, so far is very good and they feel upbeat. I hope that all continues.

It would be a shame to see Hatteras and Cabo fade. There is zero reason they can't be successful. We have successful US yacht builders and successful US sports fishing builders. If they are properly financed and get their act together, they should be.
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Old 03-10-2014, 11:35 AM   #33
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Any further thoughts on the Fleming 58? Having been on F55s and 65s, the build quality and attention to detail was quite evident. If the new 58 hull design and improvements such as the mid cabin master and larger ER are appealing to you, it seems quite the vessel.

I saw one of the first GB 59s and felt the build quality less as compared to the Flemings. This was on the heels of walking away from the purchase of a used EU for similar reasons.

Don't overlook a one or two year old vessel. They do come along as buyer's remorse sets in. In many cases they are superior to a new vessel as the commissioning process has wrung out the gremlins and after factory equipment has been installed. Not to mention a savings of 30 to 40%.
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Old 03-10-2014, 01:09 PM   #34
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Hatteras is doing more than OK. At the Miami show alone they closed on two more of their new 100' motor yachts (introduced last year, now up to hull #4) plus an 80MY and a 60 MY. They are introducing new modes such as the 70MY and the 70GT sport fisher. Among other boats at the FTL show they sold three of the 77' convertibles into the middle east. Dubai and that area have become such a good market they are at the Dubai boat show.

Viking is another make doing quite well, they dominate the production SF market now, admittedly a lot of that at Hatteras' expense but also Bertram. Three new Vikings became berthed at our marina in the past 18 months, 30 scant miles from the Hatteras plant. You go by the Viking facility in New Gretna and they are jamming. Reportedly they are getting back into the motor yacht building business themselves, having previously teamed with Princess in the recent past for MYs.


I know less about Marlowe, but by all appearances are thriving and expanding. Like wise, Lazzara. The larger custom builders in North Carolina such as Jarrett Bay, Spencer and Bayliss have backlogs. So it appears, at least, that the guys catering to the "top 5%" are doing ok.
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Old 03-10-2014, 04:23 PM   #35
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Any further thoughts on the Fleming 58? Having been on F55s and 65s, the build quality and attention to detail was quite evident. If the new 58 hull design and improvements such as the mid cabin master and larger ER are appealing to you, it seems quite the vessel.

I saw one of the first GB 59s and felt the build quality less as compared to the Flemings. This was on the heels of walking away from the purchase of a used EU for similar reasons.

Don't overlook a one or two year old vessel. They do come along as buyer's remorse sets in. In many cases they are superior to a new vessel as the commissioning process has wrung out the gremlins and after factory equipment has been installed. Not to mention a savings of 30 to 40%.
Our leaning right now is toward the Hatteras. However, we haven't researched or looked at the Fleming as much as we need to in order to finalize any decision. Simply the 58 didn't exist when we started looking. The Grand Banks Aleutian 59 is third, based more on uncertainty about the company than anything. Those are also they type issues that often end up reflected in quality.
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Old 03-10-2014, 04:35 PM   #36
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Hatteras is doing more than OK. At the Miami show alone they closed on two more of their new 100' motor yachts (introduced last year, now up to hull #4) plus an 80MY and a 60 MY. They are introducing new modes such as the 70MY and the 70GT sport fisher. Among other boats at the FTL show they sold three of the 77' convertibles into the middle east. Dubai and that area have become such a good market they are at the Dubai boat show.

Viking is another make doing quite well, they dominate the production SF market now, admittedly a lot of that at Hatteras' expense but also Bertram. Three new Vikings became berthed at our marina in the past 18 months, 30 scant miles from the Hatteras plant. You go by the Viking facility in New Gretna and they are jamming. Reportedly they are getting back into the motor yacht building business themselves, having previously teamed with Princess in the recent past for MYs.


I know less about Marlowe, but by all appearances are thriving and expanding. Like wise, Lazzara. The larger custom builders in North Carolina such as Jarrett Bay, Spencer and Bayliss have backlogs. So it appears, at least, that the guys catering to the "top 5%" are doing ok.
Viking has introduced a 75' MY. I think their only problem is so much going on with the SF, hard to prioritize MY's. They built MY's until 2001.

Marlow seems to be concentrating more on the Mainship and Hunter lines than the larger Marlow's from what I have seen recently. They have made some revisions in their own line however, reducing the line, going to the E models only. I would think the reduction would be good. Just one of the things they are most proud of is always changing, each boat improved over the previous, I find somewhat disturbing as it keeps the target moving. But I haven't seen much activity in their boats.

As to Hatteras and the 100's, I think they have to prove they can deliver in a reasonable time. That's the problem when you have so many cutbacks, it's hard to gear back up. The first 100 took ages. Now that's not uncommon. Have you seen any update on #2?
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Old 03-10-2014, 04:44 PM   #37
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B&B-I have followed the travails of Hatteras for many years. I lived in NC for a long time (the "TH" in my usename is for "Tarheel"). I knew members of the Slane family a long time ago and as a young guy spent a month as a mate on the original Hatterascal fished then by Wills Slane's son. They have always been very, very good boats and leaders in technology. One thing I really miss though on the new boats is the classic Jack Hargrave sheerline, both on SF's and MYs. You used to see a boat a half mile off and you could tell it was a Hatt. There is a 57' MY docked across from me and I still think the lines on it are beautiful as I walk down the dock.

Having been in the private investment business, I am never optimistic for a business when acquired by a private equity firm. Their MO just isn't operating businesses at a profit over an extended period of time (other than Buffet, Warren not Jimmy). I sincerely hope that Versa wants to own a successful and classic boatbuilder, not just hold an asset until it can "realize value from its investment". After the last 20 years, what Hatteras needs most is stability and consistency in management and operations.
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Old 03-10-2014, 04:48 PM   #38
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I can ask someone there about the second 100. I am not sure what "ages" means, they introduced the new model about a year maybe two or so of the first one being launched and commissioned last summer. Some brave soul first had to buy one from the drawings. Then they customize it to his specs, then set about the huge task of building it. 100's aren't going to pop off the assembly line like donuts...
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Old 03-10-2014, 05:08 PM   #39
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B&B-I have followed the travails of Hatteras for many years. I lived in NC for a long time (the "TH" in my usename is for "Tarheel"). I knew members of the Slane family a long time ago and as a young guy spent a month as a mate on the original Hatterascal fished then by Wills Slane's son. They have always been very, very good boats and leaders in technology. One thing I really miss though on the new boats is the classic Jack Hargrave sheerline, both on SF's and MYs. You used to see a boat a half mile off and you could tell it was a Hatt. There is a 57' MY docked across from me and I still think the lines on it are beautiful as I walk down the dock.

Having been in the private investment business, I am never optimistic for a business when acquired by a private equity firm. Their MO just isn't operating businesses at a profit over an extended period of time (other than Buffet, Warren not Jimmy). I sincerely hope that Versa wants to own a successful and classic boatbuilder, not just hold an asset until it can "realize value from its investment". After the last 20 years, what Hatteras needs most is stability and consistency in management and operations.
Yeah, those classic Hatts are beauties, aren't they? They didn't build a 57, so you must mean the fairest of them all, the 56!

They do seem to be making an attempt to be more distinctive and "classic" in the new models, witness the 100 and the new 70. I spent some time one afternoon circling around the new 100 on my Whaler when they took it on a sea trail to Cape Lookout, then got invited on board after chatting with the crew, one of whom had come out and knew me from my 56 he recognized anchored a little ways off. Pretty fabulous though I wasn't allowed to take interior pix. I thought the yacht looked good from almost all angles, albeit in a pretty modernistic way, but far from some of the hideous looking stuff that was built under Brunswick and GenMar ownership.

No it was NOT going uphill, I took this from the Whaler. They told me the tender on the swim platform was a temporary thing BTW.



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Old 03-10-2014, 05:21 PM   #40
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B&B-I have followed the travails of Hatteras for many years. I lived in NC for a long time (the "TH" in my usename is for "Tarheel"). I knew members of the Slane family a long time ago and as a young guy spent a month as a mate on the original Hatterascal fished then by Wills Slane's son. They have always been very, very good boats and leaders in technology. One thing I really miss though on the new boats is the classic Jack Hargrave sheerline, both on SF's and MYs. You used to see a boat a half mile off and you could tell it was a Hatt. There is a 57' MY docked across from me and I still think the lines on it are beautiful as I walk down the dock.

Having been in the private investment business, I am never optimistic for a business when acquired by a private equity firm. Their MO just isn't operating businesses at a profit over an extended period of time (other than Buffet, Warren not Jimmy). I sincerely hope that Versa wants to own a successful and classic boatbuilder, not just hold an asset until it can "realize value from its investment". After the last 20 years, what Hatteras needs most is stability and consistency in management and operations.
I lived in NC for the first 41 1/2 years of my life, although not near the coast. But use to go deep sea fishing occasionally as we called it when a kid. Hatteras everywhere. Most of the charters were Hatteras. The gulf stream is so far off the NC coast and they often wanted to go there. I know people coming south are surprised how close it is in South Florida.

My observations of private equity firms are similar but right now they own quite a few boat builders and I expect that number to increase. However, I do not know how Versa works and what to expect. At least so far, the news from New Bern appears to be good. If it's an Invest/Grow/Sell then that's ok. It's the ones who Buy but don't invest that are not so good.

The one thing Hatteras does have going for them is the rather captive labor pool. A lot of skilled boat craftsmen in the New Bern area.
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