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Old 11-25-2014, 09:21 PM   #81
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I particularly like the fact that with active fins, my martini doesn't slop out of the glass.

I'd have them on my 27' Owens if I could. What's not to like about technology that reduces needless alcohol waste.
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Old 11-25-2014, 09:47 PM   #82
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I have Wesmar stabilizers on my new to me boat and they where one of the reasons I bought this boat. I absolutely love them. The only way I know they are on is to look at the lights on the control panel. No noise, just silently doing the job. I totally ignore boat wakes now, just go straight ahead even with ferry wakes.


With the previous boat, my wife would insist on tacking across any hint of beam seas. She even let me cross the Strait of Juan de Fuca this summer. First time since we owned a sailboat.
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Old 11-25-2014, 11:45 PM   #83
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Delfin View Post
I've noticed that the only people who have an adverse opinion of active stabilizers are those that don't have them. Everyone else wouldn't leave home without them. Expensive, yep. Noisy, no. Complicated, not really, or at least no more so that supporting passive fin stabilizers.

I particularly like the fact that with active fins, my martini doesn't slop out of the glass.
For that reason alone my next one really will have active

our friends Viking is just amazing no martini or coffee spills
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Old 11-28-2014, 02:53 AM   #84
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Another big plus vote for active fins. The PO told me that I needed to lay down the salon coffee table before leaving the dock. Well, not any more. And no more spilt drinks either. Performance far better than paravanes, which aren't all that cheap to fit either, are ugly and can be a hassle using and retrieving.

Active fin critics included the latest edition of Beebe's classic book - obviously by someone really out of date and lacking in knowledge of how well active fins perform and how little noise or maintenance there is with a good install of modern units.
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Old 11-28-2014, 06:54 AM   #85
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Bay Pelican has active stabilizers and I am a big fan. However, for crossing oceans I question their reliability. As the 2004 Nordhavn rally showed the active stabilizers then on the market were not engineered to operate for ten consecutive days without stopping. Since 2004 the manufacturers have beefed up their units.

Have not heard of any problems using the paravanes for passages.
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Old 11-28-2014, 08:22 AM   #86
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I can only echo what ya'll said, they're AWESOME!
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Old 11-28-2014, 10:02 AM   #87
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Originally Posted by Bay Pelican View Post
Bay Pelican has active stabilizers and I am a big fan. However, for crossing oceans I question their reliability. As the 2004 Nordhavn rally showed the active stabilizers then on the market were not engineered to operate for ten consecutive days without stopping. Since 2004 the manufacturers have beefed up their units.

Have not heard of any problems using the paravanes for passages.
Exactly.

In researching for what we needed, before I even heard of Krogen, what stood out to me was the above.

Not one Nordy was able to run their hydraulic stabilizers 24/7 without a breakdown before arrival.

For us, that settled that issue.

Even Sprague on his annoying NW Passage account, had multiple problems.
But, he had the typical Nordy backup system, just have the the parts airlifted to a small arctic village.

Works for some; just not me.
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Old 11-28-2014, 11:11 AM   #88
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Richard, I seem to recall your para vanes had issues.

For discussions about stabilizers, it is as noted previously, an issue of the haves vs have nots. I could regale you with my personal experiences of thousands of ABT or Wesmars trouble free miles but why. I'll let the pros do it. Read setsail or the Nordhavn websites. And if one is fortunate, talk with Mr Dashew or the Leishmans about why they embrace actives.

A good friend of mine has actives on his KK42, happy as a clam with 7000 hours and climbing. Even worse he doesn't have a Lehman!
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Old 11-28-2014, 01:48 PM   #89
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A well designed Scotch Whisky glass does not need stabilization.

Martinis most definitely do. In my hands anyway.
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Old 11-28-2014, 04:29 PM   #90
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Good posts above. Important points are that the Nordy 2004 rally issues were ten years ago. That's a really long time in regard to engineering. It may have been what triggered the big improvements.

Nordy's are tall, top-heavy boats. Could it be that the ones that had issues had active fins that were too small for the job. Undersize and overload anything and failures will occur.

Also, Richard had a issues with his paravanes - bent pole for starters. But the killer is that they just don't work anywhere near as well. Perhaps not a complete waste of money, but definitely a poor second choice.
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Old 11-28-2014, 04:47 PM   #91
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Could it be that the ones that had issues had active fins that were too small for the job. Undersize and overload anything and failures will occur
I think that's the lesson leaned from the 2004 NAR. Most Nordhavn's since then are equipped with ABTs which in general are a beefier design, and failures at sea are rare. Everyone needs to set the NAR experience aside and ask someone who has been operating with stabilizers in the past 5 years. I don't think it's a stretch to say that every day there is a Nordhavn crossing an ocean somewhere. It's just not an issue.
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Old 11-28-2014, 04:48 PM   #92
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Good posts above. Important points are that the Nordy 2004 rally issues were ten years ago. That's a really long time in regard to engineering. It may have been what triggered the big improvements.

Nordy's are tall, top-heavy boats. Could it be that the ones that had issues had active fins that were too small for the job. Undersize and overload anything and failures will occur.

Also, Richard had a issues with his paravanes - bent pole for starters. But the killer is that they just don't work anywhere near as well. Perhaps not a complete waste of money, but definitely a poor second choice.
And, ever since my wife saw "The Perfect Storm", she has refused to climb out on the poles anymore when something goes wrong. This forced the issue for us. Keeping the martini in the glass is a mere side benefit.
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Old 11-28-2014, 05:32 PM   #93
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Good posts above. Important points are that the Nordy 2004 rally issues were ten years ago. That's a really long time in regard to engineering. It may have been what triggered the big improvements.

Nordy's are tall, top-heavy boats. Could it be that the ones that had issues had active fins that were too small for the job. Undersize and overload anything and failures will occur.

Also, Richard had a issues with his paravanes - bent pole for starters. But the killer is that they just don't work anywhere near as well. Perhaps not a complete waste of money, but definitely a poor second choice.
You bring a good point that design is important. The Nordy rally showed that design was the problem. I think the issues that Richard had were design also. But paravanes a poor second choice?
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Old 11-28-2014, 06:48 PM   #94
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You bring a good point that design is important. The Nordy rally showed that design was the problem. I think the issues that Richard had were design also. But paravanes a poor second choice?
The electronics could certainly be an issue, but then again, so can the electronics controlling the typical common rail diesel. I believe that cooling of the hydraulic oil is also a potential issue, especially when the fins are working hard for extended periods of time. These are all design questions that needn't be an issue. In looking at my ABTs, I have a hard time coming up with a failure point outside the control box.
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Old 11-28-2014, 08:44 PM   #95
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You bring a good point that design is important. The Nordy rally showed that design was the problem. I think the issues that Richard had were design also. But paravanes a poor second choice?
Ok, I should have said "distant" second choice rather than "poor". Fact is, active fins installed in the last few years are just brilliant.
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Old 11-28-2014, 10:04 PM   #96
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[QUOTE=Insequent;287370
Also, Richard had a issues with his paravanes - bent pole for starters. But the killer is that they just don't work anywhere near as well. Perhaps not a complete waste of money, but definitely a poor second choice.[/QUOTE]

Ouch...
Both systems have thier plusses and minuses.

I have been to sea with both and honestly like both for different reasons.

If it simplicity of use active stabilizer's are the ticket

Active don't do much at anchor but passive can.

A friend I am assisting with the purchase of a passagemaker actually wants a passive stabilized boat not a active one..he wants a boat with less intensive systems.

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Old 11-28-2014, 11:11 PM   #97
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Were I to do another major refit I might well go with a Seakeeper gyro. Assuming I was able to find the room for it. They are good at anchor, although you need to run a genny for them. I might rate active fins as a close second behind the Seakeeper units although would like to get some first hand experience of gyro's first. Cost is broadly similar. Granted, for smaller pleasure trawlers both are a pretty big ticket item alongside other costs of ownership.

But for a Passagemaker (and this thread is 'ideal passagemaker'), the comfort is priceless. IIRC Idlewild had a pretty rough leg from South Africa to Perth. To the extent that cooking was quite difficult and limited to one attempt per day. Subsequently they fitted paravanes. Fair enough, the crew has to eat! And paravanes suited the whole philosophy of that boat. But my impression is that they just made things tolerable, not comfortable. High levels of comfort and no spilt drinks is another philosophy entirely, and one that is mandatory for some partners and crew to be willing to actually join you. That puts the comparatively high cost of active fins or gyros into practical perspective. Not saying that they can magically counter-act really rough conditions either....
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Old 11-29-2014, 11:02 PM   #98
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Well said, again.
Dauntless' First Mate would certainly agree.

Early in my learning curve, I thought steel was superior, mostly because of ease of repairs. That's still sort of true, but if I had a 25 year old steel boat, I'd have to be on it at this moment, chipping away, instead of sitting in Queens eating Korean chicken wings and drinking soju and beer :-)


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Old 11-30-2014, 12:03 AM   #99
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Hi Guys/Gals,,,

Just catching up with a fix of 'Trawler-Forum' . Regarding the Stabilizer topic here, we have just made a Pacific Crossing of 2330 miles (San Diego - Oahu, Hawaii with our 2001 ABT (TRAC) active stabilizers running 24/7 for 13 days,,, with no issues what-so-ever.

Before this transit, I worried they may be a failure point. Julie and I took the TRAC course in San Fran before heading out, and I must say we were thoroughly impressed with the company, and their equipment.

From BC to Mexico to Hawaii, our vessel has travelled 7600 miles in our ownership, and 40,000 miles in the previous ownerships - all with the active stabs working their arses off, and they just eat-it-up. Personally, I'm sold, and I'm impressed.

Paradoxically, I love the simplicity of bilge keels & even lofty anti-roll tanks, but the TRAC stabs have proved their merit, caliber, & excellence. Just writing this down now (glass of red in hand), I realize that my ideal 'passage-maker' would indeed employ ABT active stabs. [they also help keep the main engine loaded a bit ]
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Old 12-14-2014, 01:26 PM   #100
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The ideal passagemaker is many things to many people. If cost is not a concern, then there are plenty of options out there.

Being somewhat of a tightwad, and traditionalist, I came across this ad today, and thought - this is a lot of bang for the buck. Appears to be well engineered and beautifully finished.
Sails & paravanes for stabilization.

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