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Old 11-15-2014, 05:25 PM   #21
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The problem with most of the long skinny "passage makers" is that most are good for only that.. they make lousy liveaboards once you get to that far off destination.
I think that might depend on what somebody considers minumum requirements for comfort, and the primary function of the boat.

As a backpacker, sea kayaking felt like car camping because you could bring so much stuff, and now our 30' boat has way more storage space than we have things to fill it with.

If your needs are frugal and the boat is basically a moving base camp for further adventures ashore, or a mothership for a smaller craft to explore up rivers or along exposed shorelines, then one of them skinny boats might be just the ticket.
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Old 11-15-2014, 06:05 PM   #22
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The problem with most of the long skinny "passage makers" is that most are good for only that.. they make lousy liveaboards once you get to that far off destination. I have been on a number of Diesel Ducks and most have lousy decks to spend time on.. sure they are one of the most fuel efficient voyagers out there but no above deck comfort whatsoever. One I was aboard had those cheap white plastic walmart chairs.. that was it. Some of the best boats, in my opinion allow the occupants to sit on deck either under cover or in the open to enjoy the view of the places you spent so much time and money to get to see.

We have two or three Ducks here in our local marinas and they are well put together and impressive boats.. but still above deck comfort is a distant after thought. I also like the catamaran idea as they are the most roll friendly designs available and do not need any roll control.
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The older Duck have pretty bad aft deck sitting areas. Heck, lets be real, they have no aft deck sitting areas. But the latest Seahorse Ducks have a very nice covered cockpit aft of the pilot house. One guy fell asleep stretched across the cock pit on a short trip we did last spring which impressed me since the guy is about 6'2".

The Ducks with a fly bridge have even more outside sitting areas but some owners do not want the fly bridge for a variety of reasons. Personally, I would want the fly bridge since it makes using the boat in shallow water safer and it gives you yet more time to be outside the boat to enjoy good weather.

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Old 11-15-2014, 08:26 PM   #23
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Leopard dropped the stick and are having great success with their 51. Over 17 delivered and next available production slot is Spring 2015.
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But they have now lost the plot a bit. Originally they came with Cummins or JD 4 cyl engines of around 150 HP. More than enough power really. One charterer cruised on just 1 Cummins at 2000rpm for 9.5kn. Now with the Yanmar 370HP V8's as the standard option they can go faster (25 Kn?) but with small fuel tankage they wont go very far at that speed. No doubt market driven. Personally I would want the small engines and be very happy cruising in the 'teens. I would not have the 4 heads/4 double charter GA either. Although the 'owners' or 3 double cabin version would be pretty nice. But frankly, 2 heads/showers are enough.

But similar issues to long and skinny as far as marina's are concerned - hard to find a suitable berth, and it will cost you eg 2 x mono berths next to each other.

To me they are ugly, but I think I could learn to live with it.

What I would really like to do is take a PH trawler and put some cat hulls underneath, but retain the trawler sheerline. The droopy bows on many cats, and straight and blocky hull lines, give a poor aesthetic. In contrast cats then get overdone on curves for the house. I like curves, but very few cats can get the balance right.
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Old 11-15-2014, 09:04 PM   #24
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In the original article, it seems to me that the author's definition of the perfect passagemaker is actually the most fuel efficient passagemaker. All of his tradeoffs favored speed and efficiency.

I think for most of us, that's one of many things that matter. Several people have brought up space and comfort. I can relate to that.
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Old 11-15-2014, 09:16 PM   #25
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Can't afford (financially, emotionally, or physically) a passagemaker. So I take a 900+foot ship for $50 to $100 a day. Most appreciate the piano bar.
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Old 11-15-2014, 11:14 PM   #26
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Most if not all the discussions about the perfect or best boat even when restricted to a specific use pattern such as a passage maker usually come down to balancing physical design criteria one against another. What ends up pleasing one person will not suffice for another. Production or spec. builders will choose what they perceive as the most marketable compromise to reach a market with the dollars to spend. It is in the highly custom one off boats where you can find considerable divergence toward an individuals taste or implementation of previous experience with boats. I find these one off boats the most interesting to study. One individual may put great emphasis on fuel burn and tankage another on a fly bridge another on a sumptuous master suite or sea keeping it pretty much gets personal. In the end there is obviously no perfect boat and when you think you have found one just let a little time pass and you may change your mind. So many perfect or almost perfect boats get sold in order to buy the next perfect boat.
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Old 11-15-2014, 11:45 PM   #27
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Most if not all the discussions about the perfect or best boat even when restricted to a specific use pattern such as a passage maker usually come down to balancing physical design criteria one against another. What ends up pleasing one person will not suffice for another. Production or spec. builders will choose what they perceive as the most marketable compromise to reach a market with the dollars to spend. It is in the highly custom one off boats where you can find considerable divergence toward an individuals taste or implementation of previous experience with boats. I find these one off boats the most interesting to study. One individual may put great emphasis on fuel burn and tankage another on a fly bridge another on a sumptuous master suite or sea keeping it pretty much gets personal. In the end there is obviously no perfect boat and when you think you have found one just let a little time pass and you may change your mind. So many perfect or almost perfect boats get sold in order to buy the next perfect boat.
Well put.
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Old 11-16-2014, 02:58 AM   #28
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It is in the highly custom one off boats where you can find considerable divergence toward an individuals taste or implementation of previous experience with boats. I find these one off boats the most interesting to study.
A classic George Buehler example of a successful custom design;

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Old 11-16-2014, 07:03 AM   #29
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I have long thought the ideal distance cruiser is a ticket and a boat that can be shipped inside a Sea Land 40 ft cargo box.

Sure its going to be cozy inside with a 7.6 ft beam , but to visit inshore for a couple of moths the jaccuzi and bowling alley wont be missed.

Ideal for a couple but (UGH) 6 total could be carried .

The vessel would use the Atkin Sea Bright box keel and reverse deadrise hull shape.

With no Sea Tow in most of the world a boat that is built to take the beach would be a big help in areas where paper charts are hard to come by.

Built in Aluminum . Poland perhaps , the cost would not be outrageous .KISS would dominate.

The best is flying somewhere and shipping the boat would probably cost much less than motoring to the destination.

With the world economy tottering , shipping a box is CHEAP!!
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Old 11-16-2014, 10:55 AM   #30
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Container shipping rates dropped 20% this past week for the busiest container routes in the world. Asian ports to Northern Europe dropped to below $1000 per TEU (20' box). The break even point for the large shippers is acknowleged to be $1000. Over capacity and weakening demand is apparently the culprit.
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Old 11-16-2014, 08:41 PM   #31
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I have long thought the ideal distance cruiser is a ticket and a boat that can be shipped inside a Sea Land 40 ft cargo box.
With the world economy tottering , shipping a box is CHEAP!!
Well, then I guess the ultimate Passagemaker would look something like this.
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Old 11-16-2014, 09:39 PM   #32
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Well, then I guess the ultimate Passagemaker would look something like this.
Yikes! Yacht design by commitee, overseen by a board, all with an eye on maximizing profit and keeping heartless, uncaring shareholders happy

Here's one of Buehler's that Eric would lust over...a tad large at 71 feet, but look at that ass end!!!

Ellemaid page 9 the Launch
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Old 11-16-2014, 11:52 PM   #33
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Yikes! Yacht design by commitee, overseen by a board, all with an eye on maximizing profit and keeping heartless, uncaring shareholders happy

Here's one of Buehler's that Eric would lust over...a tad large at 71 feet, but look at that ass end!!!

Ellemaid page 9 the Launch
Probably fuel efficient but what about the cost of changing all those zincs? Look at launch pictures and count zincs on one side then multiply by two. My divers would probably charge several hundred to change those out and hauling a boat like that cant be cheap. I think George lost a fair amount his efficiency with the zincs.
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Old 11-17-2014, 05:49 AM   #34
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Would not the ideal passagemaker be a long, narrow and low lying boat much like a 60 foot ocean going sailboat without a mast. The smaller the deck house would be the better for heavy weather. Small windows, think portholes, so that they are not caved in by the waves, and perhaps paravanes for stabilization.

The compromises needed for the ideal passagemaker would narrow the market to just someone interested in the boat only because of the passage making ability.

I keep envisioning a sailboat and then I wonder why not use a sailboat.
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Old 11-17-2014, 06:12 AM   #35
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You have pretty much described what Steve Dashew was thinking when he designed his FPB's. Except that he used active fin stabilizers instead of paravanes. But he then loaded up the boat with complex systems, with backups of most stuff, and as a result ended up with something rather high-end in terms of cost. The boats work quite well for their intended purpose although they have a few cons for many people.
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Old 11-17-2014, 06:31 AM   #36
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Old 11-17-2014, 12:38 PM   #37
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Would not the ideal passagemaker be a long, narrow and low lying boat much like a 60 foot ocean going sailboat without a mast. The smaller the deck house would be the better for heavy weather. Small windows, think portholes, so that they are not caved in by the waves, and perhaps paravanes for stabilization.

The compromises needed for the ideal passagemaker would narrow the market to just someone interested in the boat only because of the passage making ability.

I keep envisioning a sailboat and then I wonder why not use a sailboat.
Well the few times I posted the conclusion on motor boat oriented sites, that the modern light well powered sailboat is a much better long distance boat than a motor vessel I got jumped big time. Yes I agree that the attempt to make more ocean friendly power boats such as long lean and low is taking a page from sail boat design. There is one little thing that throws a wrench in the process and that to me is the roll. A mast with sail even while motor sailing is much more comfortable than a narrow boat without stabilization. Of course one can add all types of mechanical stabilization, but I say why ,when the sail rig will do it and also provide excellent long distance axillary propulsion. The fact that there are probably many more sailing vessels going long distance than motor attests to this. It is only on the motor boat sites I get heat for suggesting a sail boat as a better boat for distance travel. The ICW excluded unless the mast folds easily.
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Old 11-17-2014, 01:07 PM   #38
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Well the few times I posted the conclusion on motor boat oriented sites, that the modern light well powered sailboat is a much better long distance boat than a motor vessel I got jumped big time. Yes I agree that the attempt to make more ocean friendly power boats such as long lean and low is taking a page from sail boat design. There is one little thing that throws a wrench in the process and that to me is the roll. A mast with sail even while motor sailing is much more comfortable than a narrow boat without stabilization. Of course one can add all types of mechanical stabilization, but I say why ,when the sail rig will do it and also provide excellent long distance axillary propulsion. The fact that there are probably many more sailing vessels going long distance than motor attests to this. It is only on the motor boat sites I get heat for suggesting a sail boat as a better boat for distance travel. The ICW excluded unless the mast folds easily.
Yup - I'll agree with you on this one.

I'd go almost anywhere is this passage maker.
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Old 11-17-2014, 01:12 PM   #39
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Would not the ideal passagemaker be a long, narrow and low lying boat much like a 60 foot ocean going sailboat without a mast. The smaller the deck house would be the better for heavy weather. Small windows, think portholes, so that they are not caved in by the waves, and perhaps paravanes for stabilization.

The compromises needed for the ideal passagemaker would narrow the market to just someone interested in the boat only because of the passage making ability.

I keep envisioning a sailboat and then I wonder why not use a sailboat.
You basically have described a Diesel Duck or Dashew FPB.

The problem with sailboats is getting wet, work effort to sail the boat, and initial and long term cost of rigging. Ducks can have/should have a limited sail rig for stabilization, range extension and as a get home method if the engine fails. The temptation is to put in a more extensive sail rig for better sailing but that increases both initial and long term costs. Danged boats are always a compromise.

The Diesel Duck pilot house models are the only boat I know being actively built that has relatively small topsides. Every other non custom trawler model I see is a sedan with the galley up, which I can't stand, but I am a minority in that regard. The market seems to prefer galley up vs galley down. But lets be real, the market for passage makers is pretty limited, especially for boats with limited topside structure.

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Old 11-17-2014, 01:18 PM   #40
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For those who mentioned the ability to put a boat in a shipping container and meet it in far off places, Bob Perry designed one that is called the Farr Harbour 39 (and its a motor sailor): CONTAINER YACHTS

Not sure how many have been sold, but I have seen avertisements in the past in Cruising World magazine.
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