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Old 04-19-2016, 08:27 PM   #161
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Wx you asked the question in post # 131.

I thought it was a good question as is the single v/s twin question.
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Old 04-25-2016, 01:34 AM   #162
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Selene 49' crossed the Atlantic in 2014. Not sure if others have done so since that time. This is on my short list of trawlers.
http://selene-yachts.eu/images/press...s_Nov2014_.pdf
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Old 04-25-2016, 11:20 AM   #163
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ideal ocean crossing trawler yacht

Question for all you experienced ocean crossers, or multiple day blue water crossers:

What does a slowish 6-8 knot powerboat do when it encounters a big storm with 20-30' waves? A sailboat can heave to and ride it out as I understand it (but never done it!), but what about the powerboat?

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I'm reading this book now and the boats that hove to survived to sail another day, but the ones that tried lying ahull with bare poles got knocked down and rolled, dismasted, etc.

They chose to stop and try these maneuvers because they were surfing down the waves so fast and uncontrollably (even with warps, sea anchors, etc) they were worried about broaching. But what can a powerboat do? Seems like it would be at even more danger of broaching since most powerboat sterns are flatter than most sailboats.

Not that I want to try any of this mind you, but was just wondering!
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Old 04-25-2016, 11:31 AM   #164
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Just seaanchors or drouges and protect the windows if possible.
Getting slamed around inside could be a another huge problem. I once thought about a helms seat seatbelt. But never went there.

Most powerboats don't have stern shapes or rudders for that kind of service not to mention keels.
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Old 04-25-2016, 11:53 AM   #165
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Cardude,

Until you get out there its hard to say how your boat will respond to any particular storm. Worst weather I saw was force 10 in a sailboat. Big seas. We didn't heave to wasn't bad enough for that, but had barely any sail up and were pointing high. It wasn't too bad. Going down wind or barepoles would scare the heck out of me. Contemplating my next boat, (possibly a trawler) this question has crossed my mind too. My gut is the first thing I would try would be enough throttle to make headway pointing into it or just off it depending where I need to go. Running with it would scare me (broaching). Curious what trawler owners have to say.
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Old 04-25-2016, 12:06 PM   #166
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Question for all you experienced ocean crossers, or multiple day blue water crossers:

What does a slowish 6-8 knot powerboat do when it encounters a big storm with 20-30' waves? A sailboat can heave to and ride it out as I understand it (but never done it!), but what about the powerboat?

I'm reading this book now and the boats that hove to survived to sail another day, but the ones that tried lying ahull with bare poles got knocked down and rolled, dismasted, etc.

They chose to stop and try these maneuvers because they were surfing down the waves so fast and uncontrollably (even with warps, sea anchors, etc) they were worried about broaching. But what can a powerboat do? Seems like it would be at even more danger of broaching since most powerboat sterns are flatter than most sailboats.

Not that I want to try any of this mind you, but was just wondering!
I personally have not been in 20'+ seas. 15' is the most I've encountered and it was swells with fairly long periods. The largest with short periods is 12'. However, I've discussed it a lot with those who have encountered bigger.

You can heave to in a power boat as well.

The biggest challenge to a power boat is fuel and having enough surplus to be able to handle the sudden worse conditions. You need to be able to cover 24 hours cruising with no progress made. In the worst conditions you are more concerned with making it through the storm than with making progress.

Obviously, you try to avoid such conditions and I know people who have crossed the Atlantic many times, never to see 20'.

In the worst seas, boat length does become a factor with the larger/longer boat being less punishing to those aboard.

In planning, one thing we've tried to consider is the ability to turn back. Let's say we're going 10-12 knots. Picking a long leg of 2000 nm then you have an 8 day trip. Weather forecasts are generally pretty accurate three days out. So, let's say you're half across when the forecast ahead turns bad, but conditions behind you say you can return to where you started in four days. But what happens is if you're 5 days out and suddenly the 48 hour forecast has put a storm targeting the Azores. You can't make it there before the storm. Can you head back to Bermuda? That's where the fuel becomes an issue and you need a reserve. At 6 to 8 knots it's more of a challenge. Most larger boats do it at 10 to 12 but most trawler size boats, 60' and under are 6 to 8 knot boats. At 6 knots it's a 14 day trip. You're talking two week forecasts. You could get 10 days into the trip and need to turn around but that would require you having 20 days worth of fuel. Also, you might not be able to get out of the path of the storm even reversing course.

Even on 6 knot boats, I can't recall any that have encountered 20-30' waves. Our forecast of major systems is good enough it tends to prevent that issue. I think a key is not only to stay on top of the weather in the direction you're headed but also where you've come from since your only escape may be to turn back.

Back to the heave to issue though any passagemaking boat can do it. Some better than others.
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Old 04-25-2016, 12:10 PM   #167
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...

What does a slowish 6-8 knot powerboat do when it encounters a big storm with 20-30' waves? A sailboat can heave to and ride it out as I understand it (but never done it!), but what about the powerboat?
...
The Dashew's wrote a book on the subject that is now free to download.
http://www.setsail.com/sts.pdf

The book is mostly about sail boats but there are sections for power boats. If a trawler has a sail rig, as some do, the sailing sections of the book can be applicable.

It all boils down to power bow first into the sea, running off, using a sea anchor or a drogue.

The Dashew's also have a book on marine weather that is now a free download.
http://www.setsail.com/mwh.pdf

They did a a real good thing releasing these books for free.

Later,
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Old 04-25-2016, 12:13 PM   #168
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Way out of my league here, but this is why I'd prefer a longer/leaner boat...with enough of a weather warning you could punch it up to 9 or 10 knots for a couple days to skedaddle out of the way.

Plan B would be to slowly motor into it. Plan C would be to lie to a drouge. Plan D would be a sea anchor.
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Old 04-25-2016, 12:13 PM   #169
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Cardude,

Until you get out there its hard to say how your boat will respond to any particular storm. Worst weather I saw was force 10 in a sailboat. Big seas. We didn't heave to wasn't bad enough for that, but had barely any sail up and were pointing high. It wasn't too bad. Going down wind or barepoles would scare the heck out of me. Contemplating my next boat, (possibly a trawler) this question has crossed my mind too. My gut is the first thing I would try would be enough throttle to make headway pointing into it or just off it depending where I need to go. Running with it would scare me (broaching). Curious what trawler owners have to say.
My first choice would be running into it rather than with it, while it played out, even if that didn't head me in the desired direction.

Your point of the force 10 is good too, that even 20' seas come in many different shapes.
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Old 04-25-2016, 12:17 PM   #170
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Cardude,

Until you get out there its hard to say how your boat will respond to any particular storm. Worst weather I saw was force 10 in a sailboat. Big seas. We didn't heave to wasn't bad enough for that, but had barely any sail up and were pointing high. It wasn't too bad. Going down wind or barepoles would scare the heck out of me. Contemplating my next boat, (possibly a trawler) this question has crossed my mind too. My gut is the first thing I would try would be enough throttle to make headway pointing into it or just off it depending where I need to go. Running with it would scare me (broaching). Curious what trawler owners have to say.
IMO - If you are going to go out where there may be close duration big storm waves with white top breakers at waves peak then be sure to have boat with sharp entry and well flared bow design to ride up onto wave and pierce through the breakers on its top. Don't breach, go broadside, to the big ones. That can become a big mistake. Make sure your boat has ample power to handle items as required and nimble steering too. I do not recommend going in direction that creates following sea.

Always remember that if the boat is well designed to take storms and it is in good condition that the boat will take the rough stuff... probably rougher than you want to handle!


Also - boat should have low-spaced CofG so it's vertical axis returns quickly to upright position.
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Old 04-25-2016, 12:30 PM   #171
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IMO - If you are going to go out where there may be close tolerance big storm waves with white top breakers at waves peak then be sure to have boat with sharp entry and well flared bow design to ride up onto wave and pierce through the breakers on its top. Don't breach, go broadside, to the big ones. That can become a big mistake. Make sure your boat has ample power to handle items as required and nimble steering too. I do not recommend going in direction that creates following sea.

Always remember that if the boat is well designed to take storms and it is in good condition that the boat will take the rough stuff... probably rougher than you want to handle!


Also - boat should have low-spaced CofG so it's vertical axis returns quickly to upright position.
Art,

You make a good point with the breaking waves. If the waves are not breaking I can see attempting to point into the waves in a power boat, but when they start breaking is that still possible?

I assume this could come to play in an inlet also--steep waves that are breaking where you have no choice but to run with the waves. Wouldn't a 6-8 knot boat be in jeopardy of broaching in this scenario? I can't imagine trying to power out of an inlet with breaking waves (why would you be going out?), but I guess it could happen.

In the book I'm reading they are all sailboats, and they are always running downwind in huge seas. The guy who seemed to be the best sailor, Bernard Moitessier, finally figured out that his boat did best not going straight down the 20-30' waves (because he would bury the bow in the trough), but instead he would turn a bit to port or starboard and surf sideways a bit and the wave would usually run under him easier and he could control his speed.

These guys were insane if you ask me...
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Old 04-25-2016, 12:36 PM   #172
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Art,

You make a good point with the breaking waves. If the waves are not breaking I can see attempting to point into the waves in a power boat, but when they start breaking is that still possible?

I assume this could come to play in an inlet also--steep waves that are breaking where you have no choice but to run with the waves. Wouldn't a 6-8 knot boat be in jeopardy of broaching in this scenario? I can't imagine trying to power out of an inlet with breaking waves (why would you be going out?), but I guess it could happen.

In the book I'm reading they are all sailboats, and they are always running downwind in huge seas. The guy who seemed to be the best sailor, Bernard Moitessier, finally figured out that his boat did best not going straight down the 20-30' waves (because he would bury the bow in the trough), but instead he would turn a bit to port or starboard and surf sideways a bit and the wave would usually run under him easier and he could control his speed.

These guys were insane if you ask me...
Personally I like twin screw planing hull (or at least SD hull) boats with minimum of 14 knots WOT speed. Like the planing ones best with ready access to well above 20 knots at WOT. - Ride Em Captain!
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Old 04-25-2016, 12:48 PM   #173
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Second thought is, just ante up for that Watson 72, then you probably can just keep watch as usual during a storm. WHen your watch relief comes they say "oh , it's raining again is it?" I jest, but I just clicked that link again and that sure does look like one stout ship.

The inlets are another whole game. Youtube search New Zealand and Australia inlets. You have hours of videos to watch and educate yourself on. A full evening for sure. Very intriguing and yes, as a pleasure boater, why would you? As a fisherman, they do it everyday.
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Old 04-25-2016, 01:04 PM   #174
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The Dashew's wrote a book on the subject that is now free to download.
http://www.setsail.com/sts.pdf

The book is mostly about sail boats but there are sections for power boats. If a trawler has a sail rig, as some do, the sailing sections of the book can be applicable.

It all boils down to power bow first into the sea, running off, using a sea anchor or a drogue.

The Dashew's also have a book on marine weather that is now a free download.
http://www.setsail.com/mwh.pdf

They did a a real good thing releasing these books for free.

Later,
Dan
The powerboat section around page 400 is very interesting. I'm not sure my slow 7 knot boat would be able to perform any of those maneuvers however.

I once got caught in some short steep waves in an inlet I should not have been in, and while they were not breaking I really had to lean on the rudder to keep things under control. These waves were maybe 6'. I did not like the feeling, but it was my first time, so maybe with practice I would get more comfortable. My boat does have a big rudder but I'm not sure how well the hull will surf.
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Old 04-25-2016, 01:05 PM   #175
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Always remember that if the boat is well designed to take storms and it is in good condition that the boat will take the rough stuff... probably rougher than you want to handle!
.
The capabilities of a boat were one of the many important things our training captains taught us. We had to learn in some rough conditions. I remember the first day in 6-8' and then some 8'-10' in the Gulf and we were in a sport boat, we were both amazed at how well it could handle those conditions and the task was bringing us up to the capabilities of the boat. It was not in a passagemaker, oceangoing type boat, but it was definitely seaworthy. At the end of that day, we were both exhausted, mentally and physically. However, it was a great lesson.
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Old 04-25-2016, 02:32 PM   #176
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Way out of my league here, but this is why I'd prefer a longer/leaner boat...with enough of a weather warning you could punch it up to 9 or 10 knots for a couple days to skedaddle out of the way.

Plan B would be to slowly motor into it. Plan C would be to lie to a drouge. Plan D would be a sea anchor.
My Plan A is change course if necessary to power into the seas. Plan B is to deploy the sea anchor. I have never been in seas big enough to scare me, though I have taken green water over the bow at night. My concern with plan B, should it ever become necessary, is whether I will be able to get to the bow to deploy the sea anchor. In big seas, the swing in g-forces on my bow swing wildly as the boat pitches (possibly +2 to -1.5) , could easily fling a person off.
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Old 04-25-2016, 02:55 PM   #177
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I did 20'+ seas in a light 28' OB boat (Dixon Entrance near Ketchikan) even ran abeam some of the time. The ability to slide (plane) sideways kept me off the tops of the breakers.

A benefit to bucking into the seas is that if you're headed toward land a lee shore awaits you and you're probably putting distance between you and the dreaded windward shore.
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Old 04-25-2016, 04:44 PM   #178
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My Plan A is change course if necessary to power into the seas. Plan B is to deploy the sea anchor. I have never been in seas big enough to scare me, though I have taken green water over the bow at night. My concern with plan B, should it ever become necessary, is whether I will be able to get to the bow to deploy the sea anchor. In big seas, the swing in g-forces on my bow swing wildly as the boat pitches (possibly +2 to -1.5) , could easily fling a person off.
Could you not rig it 'just in case' if seas got bad (but before they got as you described) thru the bow , back around to pilot house door so you could deploy it by only stepping out the pilot house? It would be nice if you could cleat it off there too. So that if you decide you don't like it, you can undo the cleat and let it go. The only person I know who tried the sea anchor abandoned it after about an hour after being scarier than beating into it. For me the sea anchor would be a last resort like if I lost power. I'd keep on motoring until I ran out of diesel or that PERFECT STORM wave showed up
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Old 04-25-2016, 05:14 PM   #179
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...For me the sea anchor would be a last resort like if I lost power. I'd keep on motoring until I ran out of diesel or that PERFECT STORM wave showed up
I agree but are sea anchors really made or suggested for large power boats? A properly sized sea anchor for Hobo would be ~18' in diameter. Holy crap! How big a sea anchor would MYTraveler need? I would like to think, I'd deploy a drogue or equivalent to at least keep Hobo perpendicular to the seas if we were dead in the water in the open ocean.
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Old 04-25-2016, 05:27 PM   #180
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Could you not rig it 'just in case' if seas got bad (but before they got as you described) thru the bow , back around to pilot house door so you could deploy it by only stepping out the pilot house? It would be nice if you could cleat it off there too. So that if you decide you don't like it, you can undo the cleat and let it go. The only person I know who tried the sea anchor abandoned it after about an hour after being scarier than beating into it. For me the sea anchor would be a last resort like if I lost power. I'd keep on motoring until I ran out of diesel or that PERFECT STORM wave showed up
Yes, I could rig it in advance, and that has always been my intention if it ever looked necessary. I still worry about it getting tangled in the stabilizer fins, or worse in the props. If I am making forward progress, I worry that might run over it, while if I stop forward progress maybe the boat will turn beam to. Since I have never been in really big seas, it is hard to imagine. On the other hand, for me it is probably entirely hypothetical -- I have no intention or desire to cross oceans. I need only travel 400 - 600 nm on a leg, so I should be able to pick decent weather windows. And on a few occasions I have gone 1200 nm without any weather issue. The worst I can imagine is fishing Guadalupe Island (about 175 nm out of Ensenada) for a few days and getting stuck there for a week, which wouldn't be too bad.

I do use the sea anchor frequently when fishing overnight offshore, which is oftentimes in snotty weather. The ride is definitely better than when heading into the seas. The difference is remarkable -- analogous to turning on the stabilizers in a rough beam sea. Other than the actual deployment (and being able to keep an eye on it so that I can make sure it isn't chaffing), I have perhaps too much confidence in the sea anchor. But I do feel like I could ride out anything that isn't breaking over my Portuguese bridge.
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