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Old 03-18-2016, 11:43 AM   #21
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Can anyone answer this question? Aany experience with this??? If you tie you boat up with multiple lines, (8 to 16 lines) to as many locations as possible and your boat breaks loose during a storm are you liable for the damage that it causes? Who's insurance covers in this case?
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Old 03-18-2016, 12:18 PM   #22
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I've only scanned this thread, but I encourage anyone to put the whole issue of being coy with the insurance company aside, and having a practical Plan A and plan B that you can really execute. Hurricanes do not adhere to everyone's life schedule. You can be traveling (as happened to me once), you could be ill or incapacitated, or have other obligations. The boat could be having work done on the propulsion system. The storm doesn't care about this and it doesn't care what some humans and their computers have predicted its course and strength will be.

And of course, boats have different value and meaning to different people. For a couple of storms, our boat was still our only home. Changes the "plan" a bit.

There are some interesting and useful storm surge predictors the government has put together which are worth using in your planning. Don't have the link off hand.
I think there are two issues. First is your submission to your insurer. However, the other is what plans you have.

You mention the government information and storm surge predictors. I'd encourage people not to listen to what areas insurers deem safe or not, to not follow the conventional wisdom, to not listen to their neighbor, but to go through the process of educating themselves based on location and boats.

All the things Caltex mentions and many more can happen. Go through the "what ifs" and "worst case". But also gain knowledge of different areas, of your home, of available hurricane resources. There are a lot of beliefs floating around that just aren't well supported.

A few:

Putting a boat on land isn't always better than leaving it in the water. What is the land situation. How well elevated? How protected from the wind? How well tied down? What about the water? Is it old fixed wooden piers or are these modern day floating docks designed to accommodate a huge surge?

Safe hurricane areas. There is no 100% safe coastal or near coastal area. As to which are safer, there's a lot of data available. We live on the ICW in Fort Lauderdale. Sounds dangerous doesn't it? But look at the hurricane history of Fort Lauderdale. Then look at the surge and flood history of our lot. There has never been a surge that would bring water into our home. Look at your own specifics. Boat in a 150 mph safe concrete shed over the water? Safe? Well what about six foot surge and top of flybridge only 5' from the ceiling?

Reasonable possibility is huge. In our area, there's a general assumption to move the boat inland is a good idea. Well, if everyone is doing that might become problematic. Also, if it requires someone staying on the boat, that throws a huge additional factor into the equation. I also hear one body of water repeatedly touted as a hurricane hole, but it's history isn't as pristine as one might think. Shipyards fill too and reach their storage quota. They also have a cutoff point in order to get their people to safety.

What are the evacuation areas and instructions? Well, for us, they're different living on the west bank of the ICW than if we lived on the east bank. Two entirely different levels. When to evacuate too if you're going to? You wait too long and you end up in the most dangerous place you can be, on the road.

Accuracy of forecast. Look at them all and composites. A lot of them will be wrong. You can find yourself making a move from safety into danger. Where are hurricanes most likely? Recent years say NY and NJ and NC and TX and not so much South Florida. They say Long Island, Bahamas and not Nassau. One can't assume. What do you do if you live in Miami and 70% of the forecasts say it's coming there and south of there while 30% say it will hit further north up the coast?

All hurricanes are not created equal. Sounds obvious but we immediately think of Category. Well, Sandy wasn't a high wind powerful hurricane, just a huge slow one. Is it a hurricane with high winds or one likely to have very high surge? A category 2 might have more surge than a Cat 4. So how does the nature of the storm impact your plan.

Time is a huge consideration. I hear it discussed how much warning you have. However, you can't react the same to every tropical storm. When do you know it's a storm requiring major action and how much time does that give you. If I tried, I could move a boat to NC every time a storm forms in the Atlantic. That's not practical. So once I know it's a major storm, do I have time to take it to NC? This is assuming for some reason I've decided on land in NC is better than home.

Then it's all your priorities and responsibilities. The boat concern isn't in isolation from others. You have boat, home, family, cars, storage, business, employees, potentially all these and more to think about. You may even have events planned. Can you do it all? Sometimes, yes. Sometimes, no.

Caltex's point is that it doesn't happen like it appears on a piece of paper or like you were thinking perhaps in planning. The facts change, so your actions do. Even with the most perfect plan and perfect execution it may not work out as expected.
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Old 03-18-2016, 01:03 PM   #23
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Unless yours is the one boat missed for some reason. However, it's easy enough for you to make it clear with one sentence that it's your plan, just no guarantees. Interesting word "plan". The way I define "plan" it isn't a commitment. I use the Webster definition of "a set of actions that have been thought of as a way to do or achieve something." I don't use it as "a detailed agreement". It may seem like semantics. However, insurers go to great depths to define the words they use. I'm just suggesting we define those we use in the document we submit.

Perhaps something like this.

Hurricane plan: This consists of various actions that we have thought of as ways of proceeding in the event of an impending hurricane to attempt to protect the boat. However, they are not a commitment nor an agreement that we will, in fact, do all or any of them. That decision is at our sole discretion for any or whatever reason and not subject to use as a denial or reduction of claim. We assume no liability for carrying out the plan or failure to do so.
And if they decline you or double your named storm deductible, then what will you write?
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Old 03-18-2016, 01:26 PM   #24
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And if they decline you or double your named storm deductible, then what will you write?
The truth. Just to a different insurer. However, they haven't declined and they haven't raised the rates. We have no restrictions on where our boats are other than war torn, pirate heavy areas which are clearly defined and for which we can pay to get them included if we are fool enough to want to travel there. We have no requirements for action in the event of a named storm. They know we'll do what we can and try to follow a plan if reasonable. Just the deductible provides incentive. The insurers know you can't promise and guarantee.

Oh and our home insurance, especially flood insurance, dropped dramatically in 2013-14 when our area was reclassified based on actual history of the area and not assumption that it must be risky.
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Old 03-18-2016, 01:35 PM   #25
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What insurance company?
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Old 03-18-2016, 01:48 PM   #26
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What insurance company?
We were torn between Lloyd's and Pantaenius. Ultimately went with Lloyd's. There are other fine boat insurers though who have been mentioned often on this site. I'd recommend that anyone find a good multi-line marine broker who will work on their behalf.
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Old 03-19-2016, 10:25 AM   #27
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To Rogerh... regarding liability, insurance companies will try to go after whoever is at fault. 10 years ago, I was on my mooring. We had a storm system come through in October, with gusts to 60+ knot for over 2 days. The Hunter Legend sailboat on the mooring in front of me had weak pendants, with no chafe gear, and broke loose. Boat came down on my boat, and I sustained about $12,000 in damages from the Hunter's anchor as it came by (holed bow at anchor guard, scratched green accent stripe, damaged salon window, holed inside transom). The sailboat's anchor was actually impaled into my transom and hung there until boatyard crew came out and tied it off on my 2 transom cleats. Picture below is the Hunter riding out the storm tied off my transom. It was there for a couple of days. Speaks to my strong mooring, pendants, chafe gear, and, oh yes, the strong little Nordic Tug.

I had all repairs done quickly, and my insurance company paid my claim immediately. My insurance went after the Hunter's insurance company, claiming the owner did not properly secure the sailboat on its mooring. and they were able to successfully collect from the Hunter's insurer.
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Old 03-19-2016, 03:22 PM   #28
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If the insurance companies are asking YOU for a plan and not specifying what they want done then it occurs to me that they are doing this to just make folk think about it..... No one has mentioned that the insurance company refused their plan or asked for amendments....

If they ask the question then it makes people who had given it no thought before, consider a plan of action to protect against their loss.
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Old 03-19-2016, 03:32 PM   #29
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If the insurance companies are asking YOU for a plan and not specifying what they want done then it occurs to me that they are doing this to just make folk think about it..... No one has mentioned that the insurance company refused their plan or asked for amendments....

If they ask the question then it makes people who had given it no thought before, consider a plan of action to protect against their loss.
You hit it. We've submitted with all our disclaimers and never had an issue. What they know from ours is that we've thought carefully about all the options, and they also know us to be responsible owners, who have a lot at stake as well, so they know we will give it reasonable thought at the time and make what we think is the best decision then. They also know we will not risk lives to save boats.
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Old 03-19-2016, 04:13 PM   #30
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Can anyone answer this question? Aany experience with this??? If you tie you boat up with multiple lines, (8 to 16 lines) to as many locations as possible and your boat breaks loose during a storm are you liable for the damage that it causes? Who's insurance covers in this case?
You are responsible and your insurance pays.
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Old 03-19-2016, 04:20 PM   #31
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As has been mentioned above, everyone's plan will be somewhat different based upon their individual needs and conditions. If it is a major storm there are some further considerations to influence your decisions. What to do after the storm when power, water, and other utilities are not available.
Well, in that case being on the boat with self contained water, power, refrigeration, and ability to float during a surge are certainly items to think about. After Katrina numerous homeless employees in the New Orleans area were provided living space on the ACL towboats and fleet boats in N.O. on the river.
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Old 03-19-2016, 05:40 PM   #32
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Hurricane plans

I'm not in a hurricane area and my insurance company hasn't asked. But if they did, I'd march across the street to my neighbour who specializes in insurance law and claims, about the ramifications of the question. I'd do that before I said anything to the insurer. In other words if you're looking for advice, I'd get it from someone who knows the legal ramifications.


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Old 03-19-2016, 06:17 PM   #33
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I suggest asking the insurance company to be more specific about the requested hurricane plan. Surely they have asked the same of other customers.

My marina requires a hurricane plan. The options are:

1) They haul and block the boat (for a fee).

2) Get the boat out of the marina. It doesn't matter to us where you take it but you can't leave it here.
In Florida, it is illegal for a marina to force you to evacuate for a hurricane. Some other states have similar laws.
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Old 03-19-2016, 06:31 PM   #34
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In Florida, it is illegal for a marina to force you to evacuate for a hurricane. Some other states have similar laws.
Even with floating docks? After the disasters a few years ago at places like Ft Pierce that surprises me. NC marinas have the right to eject you, I know that.
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Old 03-19-2016, 06:45 PM   #35
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Even with floating docks? After the disasters a few years ago at places like Ft Pierce that surprises me. NC marinas have the right to eject you, I know that.
Yes. And floating docks are such a mixed bag. Those built recently and correctly for hurricanes, do a great job. The older ones with inadequate tie down and posts, float away.

Two reasons for the law. 1-They don't want people endangering their own lives in the process of moving a boat. 2-There are just far more boats than there are places to go.
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Old 03-19-2016, 09:40 PM   #36
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Yes. And floating docks are such a mixed bag. Those built recently and correctly for hurricanes, do a great job. The older ones with inadequate tie down and posts, float away.

Two reasons for the law. 1-They don't want people endangering their own lives in the process of moving a boat. 2-There are just far more boats than there are places to go.
Ummm, not exactly....

Hurricanes and Florida Law and marinas| Hurricane information for boaters
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Old 03-19-2016, 10:41 PM   #37
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Yes, I will correct. It's illegal to make them move but if you have storage, you may move them and charge the owner, if the contract calls for it. So, the situation presented is legal in Florida. However, at least in South Florida, a marina moving the vessel would be highly unlikely. They have no where to store the boats or to move them to.

The clause just requiring the owner to evacuate the boat isn't allowed.
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Old 03-20-2016, 07:27 AM   #38
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If they did move your boat and it subsequently got damaged, I would assume there would probably be some liability issues as well......
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Old 03-20-2016, 07:45 AM   #39
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"Even with floating docks?"

The pilings on most floating docks can not handle a local 12 to 15 ft storm surge.

Even hauled 12 -15 Ft of water may float the boats in the boat yard.

That's why folks go to a Hurricane Hole midstate or get out of the hurricane area .

It is not the marinas responsibility to have pilings long enough for a storm surge.
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Old 03-20-2016, 07:57 AM   #40
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Reading the clause, and more importantly the intent...

The marina can have Sea Tow tow you to another marina, have you hauled and blocked and charge you for it....as long as it is reasonable.

It ALSO holds the marina NOT liable...being leaving the boat wherever was was juust as big a liability and the marina was acting in good faith. As usual, negligence is not an excuse or a defense and therefore could justify a suit.
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