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Old 07-18-2012, 05:45 AM   #21
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"I will leave and let them move it for me"

Should it end up impaled by a piling , their insurance co will claim you were negligent.

Your insurance co may do the same!

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Old 07-18-2012, 08:03 AM   #22
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I just find it sad that someone would sign a contract with no intention of abiding by the terms of the contract.
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Old 07-18-2012, 08:06 AM   #23
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"I just find it sad that someone would sign a contract with no intention of abiding by the terms of the contract."

Even worse when some clown would swear to up hold the US Constitution and then ignore what is written.

Lack of respect for contracts might be better discussed elsewhere tho.
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Old 07-18-2012, 08:20 AM   #24
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I just find it sad that someone would sign a contract with no intention of abiding by the terms of the contract.
Yes you are correct. I wish there were some feasible alternatives. Some may say there are and if I had a week to prepare perhaps so, but in talking initially with the marina supervisor he said he understood when I told him I have no plans on moving the boat if the marina tells me to do so. He also mentioned others in the marina have said the same thing.

The marina does have a fork lift capable of lifting my boat out of the water and placing it on their concrete parking lot. I'm concerned the fork lift would do damage to my boat but if there is room and that option is available I may do that at a cost of $2000. But in the end the money would be wasted because the storm surge would float the boat off the parking lot anyway and perhaps do far more damage. It is predicted that a cat 1 hurricane has a storm surge of 8 ft. Far above the parking lot pad.

Contracts are broken all the time with no consequences. I'm not saying it's right but it happens. I lost my define benefit retirement plan because my company broke the retirement contract. I'm fortunate that the govt allows me to work until age 65 past the previous mandatory age of 60, or my retirement would look very different.
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Old 07-18-2012, 08:29 AM   #25
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Our last insurance company required that we submit a hurricane plan with our application. I would bet if we did not follow the plan and had a claim, the insurance company could deny payment. The picture was in preparation for Hurricane Jimena, 2009, Santa Rosalia, MX.

Hurricane Plan for the m/v Hobo

Larry M....
August 2011

If we are in an area that is prone to hurricanes or cyclones:

We obtain our weather information from NOAA, Buoyweather (a fee subscription weather service), and local sources. NOAA and Buoyweather data are accessed daily using the SSB radio and pactor modem or via the internet. We also obtain local forecasts daily via various cruiser SSB nets. We plot storm tracks onto onionskin overlays on local charts.

If we are unable to run and/or avoid a storm, vessel preparations would vary with location and would include (in order of preference): 1) Haul out in a secure boat yard and remove all exterior canvas and attachments. 2) Go far up a river and secure the boat with anchors and lines to shore. 3) Secure the boat in the most protected harbor or marina we can find.
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Old 07-18-2012, 09:04 AM   #26
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The problem with hurricanes is we all start worrying when we see one coming...even far away. We all know that the 7-10 day forecast is only a notion for a specific landfall...but we start thinking. At day 5 is when most of us start wringing hands....close enough to be accurate.

Acting before day 5, EVERY hurricane, gets old fast (in the USCG we had to take action sometimes with the hurricane still 1000 miles away...and in 23 years I wasted a lot of energy and emotion for nothing).

Wait till day 2-3 and you have a better idea where it is gonna hit...but now you are down to the "better get going NOW!" point. Unfortunately lots of jobs don't allow for that or the 3 days being gone till the cane passes.

So unless your marina is a truly full service one with the ability to start getting ready (in water or not) and finish before they evacuate...you are at the mercy of random chance which includes what your and the marina's insurance companies will actually do.
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Old 07-18-2012, 09:09 AM   #27
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My insurance company allows me to cruise to any destination on my endorsement year round. They DO require a hurricane haul out and I am required to haul out at that named marina. Not sure how I will proceed if I am seperated by tyranny of distance.
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Old 07-18-2012, 09:22 AM   #28
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Our marina has a move clause in the lease as well, but many (read: most) ignore it. That said, however, NC state law says that they cannot require you to move. You lease that spot from them and can stay if you want. BUT, that does mean you are liable for damages to the marina AND it's likely you won't be asked to stay when your lease is up.

When Irene came thru, at best only about half the boats left (we were among them... we hauled in a boatyard). There was very little, if any, damage to boats. Granted that every storm is different. There is a 6-story hotel that block the wind from the north for us. We will probably stay put next time if the storm is a Cat 2 or less.

I would much rather be in a marina with pilings, people, and emergency services than deep up some river or in a "hole" that's miles away from civilization and not people around to help should something happen. Nor would I abandon my boat in a place like that and would never tie to a tree during a hurricane. Trees fall and it can drag you down and around with it should you not be there or could not get loose from it at the height of a storm.
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Old 07-18-2012, 09:46 AM   #29
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I would much rather be in a marina with pilings, people, and emergency services than deep up some river or in a "hole" that's miles away from civilization and not people around to help should something happen.

The problem is storm surge.

As noted CAT 1 can easily be 6 ft , a CAT 3 can be 15ft in many areas CAT 5 ?!!!!!.

Most pilings in marinas do not stand 20+ ft above the normal water level, so the the docks floating off with the boats attached is the hassle.

The marinas want your boat gone so they have a chance at hanging on to their docks . The electric wires rip out as the pack leaves , sometimes interesting if the town power is still on.

Anchoring properly in a protected waterway is not tieing on to a tree.
It is a procedure you can do if properly prepaired.

The biggest hassle with a well chosen hurricane hole is most bridges have wind speed limits , so you have to go early if at all.
After an Evac is called , most bridges wont open , regardless of wind speed.

A boat is ALWAYS the skippers responsibility, not some boat yards.

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Old 07-18-2012, 09:52 AM   #30
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Wow - hurricanes, divers every three weeks to clean growth (separate thread), and then there's that big hot ball up in the sky that bakes everything.

Up here in the PNW we just have to power-wash off the moss every few years...
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Old 07-18-2012, 10:05 AM   #31
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I've agonized over this issue for years. The first year I lived in FL, the State had eight strikes in various areas including one that took our roof here in Key Biscayne. We're fortunate to have a canal front property with a good dock, but if something over a number two hit us, I'm sure that our damage would come from other boats that were improperly secured. Ultimately, I'd prefer to have a chained perimeter around a couple outer pilings, and a set of Tide Minders on each piling to allow the boat to rise with the surge.

The last hurricane that hit up there in NC, one of my boat buddies stayed aboard while docked up a river about 30 miles from the coast. The surge took his Tide Minders right to the top of the posts, and when the storm passed, the surge reversed and left him wallowing in the mud. I guess that must have been at least 10-12 ft. of difference.

I get anxious about what would be "enough" planning and such, but let's face it.......keeping your boat safe would require you to control the storm and whatever stupid thing other boat owners do in reaction to it. Our Insurance Company says that an "attended boat at the residence" is historically the least damaged during named storms. They say the second least damage comes from a haul-out. I argued that a haul-out would subject to boat to damage from the domino effect of other boats falling on other boats, and they agreed, BUT the damage was still less than water intrusion from leaving the boat in the water during named storms. Frankly, I think a boat's best chance is either tethered to a huge, quick resetting anchor (ALONE) in the middle of a protected inland waterway, or between four solid pilings with Tide Minders or some other tide compensation device attached at four corners.
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Old 07-18-2012, 11:12 AM   #32
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For you Florida boaters, a marina cannot require you to move your boat, HOWEVER they can pay to have someone move it for them/you and charge you. I'm going to contact my marine and ask them who they've contacted to do this work if any and where they plan on storing the boat.
327.59 - - 2011 Florida Statutes - The Florida Senate
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Old 07-18-2012, 02:50 PM   #33
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There are no obvious "right" answers and nobody knows exactly where and when a hurricane will strike and what damage it may cause.

However, if your marina lease requires you to move your boat (or have someone move it for you) and you choose to ignore this clause, at the very least, you have violated the terms of the lease and (depending on the terms of the lease) the marina can terminate the lease and evict you. You may still owe rent for the rest of the lease, especially if you have paid in advance.

At the other end of the spectrum, if you refuse to vacate the slip and there is damage to the marina because of your boat, you could be held liable for millions of dollars in damages, far more than your insurance coverage. You might lose not only your boat, but your car, your house, and your savings.
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Old 07-18-2012, 06:29 PM   #34
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There are no obvious "right" answers and nobody knows exactly where and when a hurricane will strike and what damage it may cause.

However, if your marina lease requires you to move your boat (or have someone move it for you) and you choose to ignore this clause, at the very least, you have violated the terms of the lease and (depending on the terms of the lease) the marina can terminate the lease and evict you. You may still owe rent for the rest of the lease, especially if you have paid in advance.

At the other end of the spectrum, if you refuse to vacate the slip and there is damage to the marina because of your boat, you could be held liable for millions of dollars in damages, far more than your insurance coverage. You might lose not only your boat, but your car, your house, and your savings.
Boy, am I glad I am not in a marina situation but on a private mooring in a protected harbor where it is required that every mooring be annually inspected. Granted, inspection is not a guarantee as to the ability of one's own mooring or those of others to withstand a hurricane, but I would rather take my chances on a hefty mooring of known, inspected ground tackle where my boat can swing to the weather than in a slip in a marina.
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Old 07-18-2012, 07:14 PM   #35
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A recent news item--- I think from Florida--- was about a beach lifeguard who saw someone in serious trouble in the water and ran down from his station and brought them in to safety. He was subsequently fired by the company he worked for. Why? Because he left his station to help someone who was not in his "area of coverage" thus, in the opinion of his employer, exposing the company to a lawsuit if someone else in his area of coverage had gotten in trouble while he was over assisting the first person.

With this kind of mentality rampant in today's "lawyered up" society I think it is folly to think that a marina will look the other way if a boater knowingly (or even unknowingly) violates one of the marina's stated and written policies--- like you have to get your boat out of the marina if a named storm comes strolling by.

It is doubtful that they will move your boat for you because that will expose them to all sorts of legal penalites if something happens to your boat. You can claim it's their fault because they moved it. So I would imagine they would do one of a couple of things. One, get law enforcement to make you move the boat. At that point it's out of their hands and becomes an issue strictly between you and the police, National Guard, USCG, or whoever gets assigned the job of making your boat go away.

Two, leave your boat where it is and hold you financially and possibly even criminally responsible for any damage, however minor or even implausible, that your boat's presence might have caused. What the accusations and damages sought will be will depend on how much the lawyers think they can get away with. And if past performance is any indicator, it will be a lot. You could conceivably lose a lot more than your boat.

So in my opinion, as unfair and illogical as some of these marina policies may seem to be or are, the fact is that they have the law on their side and you don't. If you don't like their policies you are free to terminate your moorage contract (if there is one) and go somewhere else. In other words, it's your problem, not theirs.

Were we in the same situation with our own boat we would be looking for the most viable means of complying with the marina policies. And perhaps at the same time trying to persuade the marina to either change the policy or make an exception. But we wouldn't bank much on that happening.

I guess the flip answer is if you want to boat in that part of the country you have to be willing to accept the downside along with the upside. Obviously yours is not the only boat in the marina. So what does everyone else do with regards to the marina's "get out" policy when a storm comes along? If they all comply then it would seem that there's not much of a case for your not complying. And if you don't, you will be making yourself an easy target for all those sharpshooters in the insurance and legal offices who have long since learned that it's people like you who make it possible for them to make their Porsche payments.
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Old 07-18-2012, 07:51 PM   #36
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My hurricane plan is to haul at a local boat yard as I did last fall at Helton Head. The secret is to make your arrangements and get out early. Yes, it can cause some trouble because the storm misses you, but better prepared than not.

My insurance company requires a plan. They also want to know any bridges and clearances between the slip and the yard. I have hired a local charter boat captain who has the slip next to me to look after the boat. He also has instructions to move it when a named storm is a few days out.

When I was in NC, I moved the boat several times in preparation for storms. My hurricane hole was Queen's Creek near Swansboro where I had the use of a private 50' slip with 20' tall pilings. With all the lines and chafing gear on she swing in that slip like a baby in a crib. At Gasparilla, she was in a building.

My suggestion is to take the best care of the boat you can short of staying with it. If you have ever seen a pile of hurricane damaged boats, you wouldn't think of staying with one.
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Old 07-18-2012, 07:57 PM   #37
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FYI, here's the BoatUS Seaworthy page on preparing for a hurricane:
BoatUS: Seaworthy

Tons of resources, including a preparation worksheet:
http://www.boatus.com/hurricanes/worksheet.pdf
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Old 07-18-2012, 07:57 PM   #38
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A recent news item--- I think from Florida--- was about a beach lifeguard who saw someone in serious trouble in the water and ran down from his station and brought them in to safety. He was subsequently fired by the company he worked for. Why? Because he left his station to help someone who was not in his "area of coverage" thus, in the opinion of his employer, exposing the company to a lawsuit if someone else in his area of coverage had gotten in trouble while he was over assisting the first person.

With this kind of mentality rampant in today's "lawyered up" society I think it is folly to think that a marina will look the other way if a boater knowingly (or even unknowingly) violates one of the marina's stated and written policies--- like you have to get your boat out of the marina if a named storm comes strolling by.

It is doubtful that they will move your boat for you because that will expose them to all sorts of legal penalites if something happens to your boat. You can claim it's their fault because they moved it. So I would imagine they would do one of a couple of things. One, get law enforcement to make you move the boat. At that point it's out of their hands and becomes an issue strictly between you and the police, National Guard, USCG, or whoever gets assigned the job of making your boat go away.

Two, leave your boat where it is and hold you financially and possibly even criminally responsible for any damage, however minor or even implausible, that your boat's presence might have caused. What the accusations and damages sought will be will depend on how much the lawyers think they can get away with. And if past performance is any indicator, it will be a lot. You could conceivably lose a lot more than your boat.

So in my opinion, as unfair and illogical as some of these marina policies may seem to be or are, the fact is that they have the law on their side and you don't. If you don't like their policies you are free to terminate your moorage contract (if there is one) and go somewhere else. In other words, it's your problem, not theirs.

Were we in the same situation with our own boat we would be looking for the most viable means of complying with the marina policies. And perhaps at the same time trying to persuade the marina to either change the policy or make an exception. But we wouldn't bank much on that happening.

I guess the flip answer is if you want to boat in that part of the country you have to be willing to accept the downside along with the upside. Obviously yours is not the only boat in the marina. So what does everyone else do with regards to the marina's "get out" policy when a storm comes along? If they all comply then it would seem that there's not much of a case for your not complying. And if you don't, you will be making yourself an easy target for all those sharpshooters in the insurance and legal offices who have long since learned that it's people like you who make it possible for them to make their Porsche payments.
While I agree with a lot of what you have posted...it's pretty common for marinas back East to move your boat for you...all season long for all sorts f reasons...whatever you contract them for. For a seasonal storm..it's not as common because of the high demand in a short amount of time...but there are lots of contract delivery captains available.

Also...the states have enacted the "no you can't throw them out" laws for several reasons...
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Old 07-18-2012, 08:36 PM   #39
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I understand that prior and perhaps contractual arrangements can be made with professional skippers, yards, and even marinas to have one's boat moved or protected in the event of a storm. That makes all sorts of sense particulary if the owner is unable to be in the area to do any of this himself.

But that seems to be different than what Timjet is suggesting, which is to simply do what he can to prep the boat and then walk away and leave it in place despite the marina's policy and "sort out the legalities later."

I have to assume that making these "move it" policies illegal varies from state to state. If it was an illegal policy, Timjet's marina wouldn't have it. They might "strongly suggest it" but from the description it seems to be an enforcable policy in this case.

Whether they enforce their policy is another question. Our marina has a policy that every boat owner in the marina must have liability insurance on their boat and that the marina be named in the policy. But they are happy enough to simply have a copy of the policy on file in the office.

But overlooking a "move your boat out in case of a storm" policy would seem to pose a greater risk for the marina then whether or not their name is on someone's insurance policy. So it's a crap shoot--- do you want to risk the marina (and its insurance company) actually enforcing the "move your boat" policy" or bet on them ingnoring it? Potentially big dollar numbers at stake here and as the numbers go up, the chances of the marina "looking the other way" probably go down.

If it was us I think we'd either be trying make formal arrangements with the marina, a yard, or a professional skipper to take care of the boat as best they can, while at the same time be finding out what sort of hidey-holes there might be within reach that we could take the boat to on our own. Plan B's are always nice to have in these situations I think.
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Old 07-18-2012, 09:08 PM   #40
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But that seems to be different than what Timjet is suggesting, .
Well, it is completely different. In my case the name of the captain is on record with the insurance company. The boat is insured with his operation as it is with mine. They have also cut the usual named storm deductible from 10% to 5%. When I was in Hilton Head, I had a licensed charter boat captain hired under similar circumstances. When in the Chesapeake in my absence we would store out of the water.

I don't want to lose the boat, but like Tim I don't want to lose my life protecting it.
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