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Old 07-28-2013, 11:10 AM   #221
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Originally Posted by manyboats View Post
There keels that are much "fuller" than yours (mine for example) but if you were having lunch w a group of pleasure trawler skippers you would claim to have a full keel.
Eric: I don't consider my keel to be "full." I could be wrong but I have seen single screw boats (as you said) with a much fuller (complete) keel.
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Old 07-28-2013, 11:30 AM   #222
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Originally Posted by brian eiland View Post
What size vessel is this?

Is the hull shape similar to any other DeFevers?
She's 60 feet long. The hull shape is not similar to other DeFevers, for the simple reason that the hull was not designed by Art DeFever. This boat was originally built as a "Baby Clipper" tuna fishing boat, by the Boyce Brother in San Diego. The original owner was in the market for a big, tough passagemaker, and bought the boat which at that point was close to being launched.

He had Art design the cabin and superstructure, converting the aft fish hold to a massive aft cabin.

So, I sort of have the best of both worlds, a boat that was built to be a fishboat but then never fished :-)

Here are some pictures of the boat during construction: The Building of Island Eagle - Island Eagle

Attached are the hull lines.

And if you want to see what tuna clippers were for, and why the stern is shaped the way it was, watch this incredible video:

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Old 07-28-2013, 02:25 PM   #223
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"would people agree" indicates that you think it is and I agree. It's more or less a full keel as I see it. A bit less in that the keel isn't 100% full. It's cut off at an angle. There keels that are much "fuller" than yours (mine for example) but if you were having lunch w a group of pleasure trawler skippers you would claim to have a full keel.

It's a bit like the FD, SD and planing hull types. There is no definitive point where one can say this hull is FD or Planing. It's all a grey zone. Attempts have been made to nail the issue down but in order to make a relatively positive definition one must understand such things as the quarter beam buttock line and other things common to discussions on Boat Design.net but not usually on a forum like TF.

But no to your question re "all the way to the stern". One quarter of the way aft of your stem ther'e is probably little or no keel. And on my Willard the keel dosn't extend all the way to the absolute stern of the hull. But ther'e is a lot of keel fwd as well as aft. However most all trawler yachts have a keel that that tapers down to next to nothing in the fwd end so it's really not full. But if a keel starts (aft) just ahead of the prop and extends below the prop and carries most or about 3/4 of it's draft (depth) fwd to very close to the stem it is beyond a doubt a full keel.
Thanks. I didn't open my statement "would people agree" to mean I am in agreement. I was asking if the consensus is that the keel I have is a full keel. I was not exactly sure before.

By your definition, I can say it is. It doesn't extend from the farthest point aft, however the props and running gear are above the deepest draft of the keel and it does extend for the 85% of the bottom of the hull.

If I were in such a lunch with a group of trawlers skippers, I would now make the claim that I have a full keel. Thanks
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Old 07-28-2013, 03:20 PM   #224
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Originally Posted by IslandEagle View Post
....So, I sort of have the best of both worlds, a boat that was built to be a fishboat but then never fished :-)

Here are some pictures of the boat during construction: The Building of Island Eagle - Island Eagle

Scott Welch
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Thanks Scott, I really enjoyed your website. Very informative.

It did appear as though a number of the links within the texts were no longer functioning, ...perhaps because of hosting?
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Old 07-28-2013, 09:12 PM   #225
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Here's some pics during our haul out.
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Old 07-28-2013, 09:37 PM   #226
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The Coot's keel starts about at the front of the pilothouse and "grows" as it get towards the stern, and extending to the bottom of the rudder with a gap for the propeller. That's about as full a keel for a motorboat as I've seen.



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Old 07-28-2013, 09:58 PM   #227
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Old 07-29-2013, 10:25 AM   #228
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Old 07-29-2013, 10:54 AM   #229
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Scotty I still think you've got the most efficient boat on the forum.
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Old 07-29-2013, 01:55 PM   #230
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SeaHorse II View Post
Eric: I don't consider my keel to be "full." I could be wrong but I have seen single screw boats (as you said) with a much fuller (complete) keel.
Walt I think most trawlers are as yours is but I don't see why designers didn't carry the keels full depth most all the way fwd. Windage is almost always fwd of center and w a full keel all the way fwd as my Willard basically has it STILL falls away to leeward more fwd than aft. From that one could conclude that w a keel like yours and a high bow like yours the bow swinging down wind must be a fairly serious thing in cross winds but I don't hear much about it.

I don't see why the keels weren't carried much further fwd on slower boats like trawlers. If your going to hit the mud, rock or sand bar it may even be an advantage to get stuck on the fwd end. Only other possible downside I see is a bit more wetted surface but nobody even talks about that re bilge keels. Wouldn't be that hard of an add-on either. I wonder how a boat (trawler) would handle w a keel like your's turned around. Deep end fwd shrinking as you go aft to next to nothing near the prop. Would need struts and the shaft would be exposed ... don't see either as an issue.

Yea Yea I know ... Far out.
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Old 07-29-2013, 02:17 PM   #231
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Extending the keel all the way forward would reduce maneuverability.
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Old 07-29-2013, 02:54 PM   #232
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Yea Yea I know ... Far out.
Not that far....google AXE bow.......
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Old 07-29-2013, 03:09 PM   #233
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Quote:
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Extending the keel all the way forward would reduce maneuverability.
Mark,

The Willard/Fales underwater profile and full length keel does not impair maneuverability in the least. I can back and fill Boomarang easily in a boat length, and at speed, a turn to the favored side happens very quickly. I suspect Eric could confirm this as well. I really think it is very dependent upon the hull form.





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Old 07-29-2013, 06:27 PM   #234
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Did this google image search of "trawler rudder"...most of the first pictures had the keel extending aft to a shoe that attached to the bottom of the rudder.

Judge for yourself "what is more common"

albin 40 - Google Search
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Old 07-29-2013, 06:29 PM   #235
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Scotty I still think you've got the most efficient boat on the forum.
Its certainly one of my favorites for a coastwise trawler.

I'm thinking of a few modifications ?
1) Steel plate hull from deck level (bottom of that dark stripe on Firefly)down with a little harder chine shape like Island Eagle.
2) Island Eagle shape would be easier to fabricate in flat panel steel, and it would result in a little more displacement volume for the vessel.
3) That extra displacement shape would allow for a 'reasonably' thicker steel plate with less smaller-pieces of internal framing. This extra weight of the hull would be down low contributing to less rolling moments.
4) Then we save weight on the top. The deck and all superstructure from the bottom of that dark stripe on Firefly all way up including the roof of the saloon and pilot house would be built from resin infused polypropylene honeycomb panels. I believe you could save as much as 40% off the current weight of that structure that exist. Wow, what that might do for her rolling motions.
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Old 07-29-2013, 06:39 PM   #236
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Did this google image search of "trawler rudder"...most of the first pictures had the keel extending aft to a shoe that attached to the bottom of the rudder.

Judge for yourself "what is more common"

albin 40 - Google Search
That's odd. The google images contain three photos of my Coot, but they are all interior shots.
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Old 07-29-2013, 06:50 PM   #237
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That's odd. The google images contain three photos of my Coot, but they are all interior shots.
saw one of her bottom someplace on the net...don't worry
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Old 07-29-2013, 11:48 PM   #238
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Quote:
Originally Posted by brian eiland View Post
1) Steel plate hull from deck level (bottom of that dark stripe on Firefly)down with a little harder chine shape like Island Eagle.
2) Island Eagle shape would be easier to fabricate in flat panel steel, and it would result in a little more displacement volume for the vessel.
3) That extra displacement shape would allow for a 'reasonably' thicker steel plate with less smaller-pieces of internal framing. This extra weight of the hull would be down low contributing to less rolling moments.
4) Then we save weight on the top. The deck and all superstructure from the bottom of that dark stripe on Firefly all way up including the roof of the saloon and pilot house would be built from resin infused polypropylene honeycomb panels. I believe you could save as much as 40% off the current weight of that structure that exist. Wow, what that might do for her rolling motions.
Just for interest, here is a steel sister ship to Island Eagle, built for Harry See of See's Candy.

http://www.yachtworld.com/boats/1967...s#.Ufc2ycu9KK0

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Old 07-30-2013, 12:36 AM   #239
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Steel plate hull from deck level

<snip>

Then we save weight on the top. The deck and all superstructure from the bottom of that dark stripe on Firefly all way up including the roof of the saloon and pilot house would be built from resin infused polypropylene honeycomb panels.
Do you have an example of how the joint is made at the material transition zone?

Has this construction method been used on a vessel of similar size?
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Old 07-30-2013, 10:57 AM   #240
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Mark on that link psneeld put up there's 4 FOUR images of your Coot.
How did that happen?
Yes ... frequently a batch of pics meant to show a boat fail to show the most interesting part.

TAD I've looked at lots of Axe bows on BoatDesign and wonder about their directional stability but many large boats (even ships) have the full blown axe bow feature. I would think turning on the face of a big wave would give most any helmsman a new white knuckle experience. But maby a big rudder is all that's needed.

Larry M,
Yes I can confirm that w my 45 degree swinging rudder Willy turns amazingly sharp. I can easily imagine why someone would think not though. The Willard/Fales hull does carry the keel all the way fwd but it's not much more than half it's former size when it reaches the bow but still very much a full keel. I suspect that the reason for that is that Rod Swift who designed them usually designed sailboats. I've not seen his other work.
With the low cabin your Boomerang sure looks longer than Willy.

I think the term "full keel" has more meaning re sailboats.
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