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Old 04-12-2016, 12:13 AM   #41
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I've never needed to make a claim; seldom herd of others who have.
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Old 04-12-2016, 12:22 AM   #42
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Originally Posted by angus
Well, for sure I like the sound of "new age" better than "aged" boater.
I was meaning the first timers with little to no experience.
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Old 04-12-2016, 12:25 AM   #43
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This has been an interesting discussion and I wonder if there is any correlation between the new age recreational boaters and claims.

Taking Acts of God and large crewed yachts out of the equation, has the ratio of claims to boats increased? If it has, then I wonder if older boats just became an easy target.

I can't find any actuarial statistics.
As none of us have their actuarial statistics, here's my speculation based on how the industry generally works. Some have had increases in claim percentages and some decreases based on how aggressively they went after business. It's had far more to deal with what boat and people they insured as opposed to any generational issues.

Here's what often happens that leads to the type issue Pantaenius has had, reported in this thread. Marketing and sales are upset at all the business they can't go after with their full yacht plan, those looking for less expensive plans, so they push for a "Select" plan. I doubt it having much success because it's customer isn't likely to even contact Pantaenius. I'm sure some have pushed for plans for boats under 27'. Sales and marketing generally want to offer everything possible to every customer possible.

Meanwhile someone sees the older boats and thinks, "let's force them to the Select plan and reduce our risk. So, that's done without realizing the repercussions. I'm sure they've had similar internal debates on reducing cruising grounds because they were one of the least restrictive.

Their strength is large expensive boats willing to pay high prices as long as they have protection for everything. The policy I got quoted for them, I was covered pretty much anywhere except would have needed an addendum for certain piracy zones. I even got war coverage quoted. It wasn't cheap but it was complete. Some aspects were interesting, such as their disinterest and lack of incentive in larger deductibles.

There are other major differences in their business. Whereas some insurers are most worried about all the partial claims, Pantaenius is only hurt by major claims and total losses. If you're charging $100k a year to insure a $30 million boat, with a $100k deductible, you don't even lose money over $200k claims. You really don't worry about $500k claims.

When it comes to paying the $30 million claims, you investigate fully.

I felt when they introduced the Select policy it was a huge mistake. It was against all the things they'd argued for. It had all the negatives they always pointed out in plans others were offering, plus some.

When talking Pantaenius, you can't take large crewed yachts out of the equation. That's the base of their profits.

Now, as to all the other insurers, especially those specializing in smaller boats, their business was definitely impacted by the economic issues several years ago. Economy bad=neglect. Neglect=sinkings and fires. Then those who have gone very aggressive and taken borderline business have definitely been hurt at times.

Now, these moves have obviously hurt Pantaenius in the view of some of their customers. However, that's probably not why they're responding. They're responding to an angry sales group. They made a miscalculation that has backfired on them. Even the best of companies do that occasionally and the smart ones quickly reverse course as they have. If you want the best example ever, just think of "New Coke."
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Old 04-12-2016, 12:53 AM   #44
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Meanwhile someone sees the older boats and thinks, "let's force them to the Select plan and reduce our risk. So, that's done without realizing the repercussions.
And that is what made me wonder about arbitrarily targeting the older boats. They needed to improve the bottom line and if they targeted the new inexperienced boat buyer they could conceivably upset the entire industry. So, lets target the older boats (not boaters).

They obviously missed the TF factor and that the angus99s were not going to just bend over and spread 'em.
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Old 04-12-2016, 06:35 AM   #45
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Good surmise, BandB. It has all the hallmarks of institutional groupthink gone awry. Had they not forced the Select Policy on me, they'd likely have kept me as a customer. At the same time, if Select was optional few (certainly not me) would have chosen it. I do give them credit for reversing a bad idea and wish them well.

Hawg, I definitely understood what you meant. I just keep forgetting that my feeble attempts at wry humor don't translate well on internet forums .
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Old 04-12-2016, 08:09 AM   #46
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After talking to one of the higher up Boat US claims surveyors.....he confirmed what I have been hearing for years.

The answer to new boaters is yes....to a point.

After the huge losses in the last decade or two, many boats owners did little or nothing to protect their boats. Claims were astronomical.

The insurance industry must be looking ahead as ask any boater "that is what insurance is for".
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Old 04-12-2016, 08:29 AM   #47
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Greetings,
Mr. ps. I find it ironic that as a result of insurance regulations, many boats were hauled in advance of Sandy and that the boats suffering the greatest damage were the ones ashore. By the same token, in my case, I was required to put my vessel directly in the path of potential destruction to maintain coverage.

It seems "that is what insurance is for" is to maximize profits for the insurance industry while minimizing coverage for the responsible boat owner. It would also seem to be an easy "out" for the insurance company to deny coverage if the owner did "little or nothing" to safeguard their vessel.
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Old 04-12-2016, 08:44 AM   #48
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It's 70% sham, 20% truth, 10% mistakes... all leading to - 100% greed for MO and MO Profit. Ins cos are using excerpts out of charge card and banking rule books... with a twist!
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Old 04-12-2016, 09:57 AM   #49
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Another complication in marine insurance. Who is the insurer? I'm sure we've all known that Boat US isn't an insurer. Their insurer changed to Geico after their acquisition by Berkshire Hathaway. That meant a total change in the underwriter and in all the decision makers.

Pantaenius is not the insurer. Last policy quote from them I saw they were using AGCS, Liberty Mutual and Torus.

Lloyd's is not an insurer. There are currently close to 100 syndicates participating with the Lloyd's brokers.

Then even for those who are there is risk sharing.

Then there are those that surprise you simply because you don't hear them mentioned every day. Ace is a great example. I know some who had no idea their size, until they purchased Chubb this January. But Ace had over $98 billion in assets. Now "the new Chubb" has over $150 billion in assets and is the world’s largest publicly traded property and casualty insurer.
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Old 04-12-2016, 10:14 AM   #50
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Greetings,
Mr. ps. I find it ironic that as a result of insurance regulations, many boats were hauled in advance of Sandy and that the boats suffering the greatest damage were the ones ashore. By the same token, in my case, I was required to put my vessel directly in the path of potential destruction to maintain coverage.

It seems "that is what insurance is for" is to maximize profits for the insurance industry while minimizing coverage for the responsible boat owner. It would also seem to be an easy "out" for the insurance company to deny coverage if the owner did "little or nothing" to safeguard their vessel.
I am thoroughly disgusted with them as you might be an extremely low risk owner, yet still are charged much closer to the risk pool average than I feel you should be.

The concept of increasing risk just because you are a liveaboards is part of that group categorization that I feel is very unfair. There are yardsticks that could be used to separate the vast differences in owners.
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Old 04-12-2016, 10:33 AM   #51
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I am thoroughly disgusted with them as you might be an extremely low risk owner, yet still are charged much closer to the risk pool average than I feel you should be.

The concept of increasing risk just because you are a liveaboards is part of that group categorization that I feel is very unfair. There are yardsticks that could be used to separate the vast differences in owners.
My exact circumstance; i.e. post # 14.


Then there is always post # 48!
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Old 04-12-2016, 12:30 PM   #52
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Changes at Pantaenius

Pantaenius has listened to its clients needs and is back to providing coverage to vessels under $250,000.
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Old 04-12-2016, 12:42 PM   #53
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Pantaenius has listened to its clients needs and is back to providing coverage to vessels under $250,000.
bss - You associated with Pantaenius?
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Old 04-12-2016, 12:45 PM   #54
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bss - You associated with Pantaenius?
Oh, you picked up on that too. Joined, just to insert that one phrase into our conversation.

So, answer now that you're here....what motivated you to do something so stupid in the first place?
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Old 04-12-2016, 12:49 PM   #55
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Oh, you picked up on that too. Joined, just to insert that one phrase into our conversation.

So, answer now that you're here....what motivated you to do something so stupid in the first place?
Haaaaaa... Haaa... Ha!

Being biz person all my life - I pick up on plenty - just as you do!
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Old 04-12-2016, 12:51 PM   #56
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You don't have to be in business to pick things up....
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Old 04-12-2016, 01:06 PM   #57
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You don't have to be in business to pick things up....
No shat! I didn't know that!!

Anyway - you work for yourself, although, you may not know it. You sound too damn ornery to not be self minded/sufficient. Working for yourself doesn't mean you're not picking up paychecks different times of life. IMO, working for yourself can also mean simply being one's self. That you surely are!!
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Old 04-12-2016, 01:06 PM   #58
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Greetings,
I picked up on it as well and aside from checking bbs profile (Like Mr. BandB and 4 others) I checked the distance from Athens NY to Harrison NY (Pantaneius's NY office). About 2 hrs commute time. Sooo...It is feasible that our new guy/gal IS what one suspects....Oh, Welcome aboard Mr./Ms. bbs.
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Old 04-12-2016, 01:11 PM   #59
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Greetings,
I picked up on it as well and aside from checking bbs profile (Like Mr. BandB and 4 others) I checked the distance from Athens NY to Harrison NY (Pantaneius's NY office). About 2 hrs commute time. Sooo...It is feasible that our new guy/gal IS what one suspects....Oh, Welcome aboard Mr./Ms. bbs.
.00001 second telecommute time!
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Old 04-12-2016, 01:23 PM   #60
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Originally Posted by bssmalley;
Pantaenius has listened to its clients needs and is back to providing coverage to vessels under $250,000.
Can you elaborate on "coverage"?
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