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Old 11-17-2017, 08:19 PM   #41
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Originally Posted by Cooper Canvas View Post
Not to ruffle any feathers , or get kicked off the Trawler forum , but has anyone ever heard of someone really loading up a trawler with a semi displacement hull with a lot of horse power ? I mean to really get it up and over . I have a 1979 ms 34 . This boat is new to me but have run many commercial fishing boats with almost the same hull (why I bought the 34 )and by not being speed demons ,we usually get up easy to 18 to 19 with a 380 hp with boat balanced correctly . Yes ,I am enjoying going slower and yes, I enjoy the fuel economy and no, I am not repowering . Just wondering if anyone did it and what was the result?
My style hull had from 120 hp to over 200....sorry foget if it was a 250 Cummins or what from the factory.

I run it at about 45 ho to get 6.3 knots. Anything more and the wake grows exponentially as the wayetline length is 34 feet.

The brochures say with the added hp, the boat cruises at something like 14 knots.

I have run quite a few boats and I cant imagine this hull doing 14 knots...oh I belisve it was done...but then again I lived in the F-4 Phantom fighter jet era too.
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Old 11-17-2017, 09:23 PM   #42
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On a trawler, the vibration of a four cyl may push the choice to the smoother six. But there are not many low hp sixes out there unless you go to an obscure brand which creates its own problems.

So sometimes all things considered, the best (least bad) choice is to go with a larger engine in the trawler. The Deere 4cyl have balance shafts, so that that can be a good option.
I install lots of engines. The John Deere 4045's and IVECO NEF 100's have counter rotating balance shafts, and are very smooth. Lehman 90's, Cummins four's, Kabota based four's, and many others, do not, and they all shake. The Cummins four is the king of shakers!

Since JD stopped making the 80 HP natural I used the BETA 85. Its Tier III and 1/2 the current price of the smallest JD 4045.

http://betamarine.co.uk/portfolio-item/beta-85/

I have solved the shaking problem since 1980 with three point suspension. I'd like to show a picture of a BETA installed yesterday. However, since PhotoBucket and DropBox have eliminated the direct photo link I'm not sure how to post photos on this site.
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Old 11-18-2017, 02:23 AM   #43
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Hi,


Almost always only about 50 hp, but sometimes it is necessary to harness horses more abundantly prop curve look about 250 hp. Speed about 7 / 15 knots.


NT37 + Cummins qsb 5.9 380hp.


NBs
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Old 11-18-2017, 02:41 AM   #44
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Sunchaser wrote;
And as Baker says, the coolant cooled oil coolers work well in keeping oil up to temperature under light loads. No mention by Sinter as to keeping oil temps up in the + 180F range.

IMO if the lube oil temp is kept up to 180 and a heavy load is put on the engine every several hours for a few minutes one should be good to go.

BUT I seriously question if an engine coolant will keep the lube oil up to 180. That little cooler is going to replace the heat of a big fairly hard working engine? ..... but if it can ......
Perhaps its a solution to the underloading issue. Im still glad I can run my engine at 50% load w/o too much fuel burn and w/o too much noise.
Eric....the coolant "cooled" oil is a good thing. In the Cummins it always comes up to temp and the oil comes up right along with it. In the Yanmar, the disparity was shocking.....the coolant could be 180 and the oil temp could be almost cool to the touch.
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Old 11-18-2017, 03:21 AM   #45
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First, it depends where you want to cruise.
Second, it depends on what time you have available.
Third, is how deep your pockets are.
Fourth, is the admirals comfort.

First, where you want to cruise determines your hull shape.
Second, If you want to dash to the furthest marine and back in time for work Monday morning you'll need two big engines burning 10/12 gallons an hour
Third, see number two.
Fourth, if the admiral doesn't like your marine lifestyle, either the boat goes, or she goes.
The only difference is time.

In my case I have an 80hp Perkins 4236 N/A running easy at 1950 rpm driving a 42 ft. low wash displacement boat, it just chugs along at 7.5 knots (with occasional 10 min bursts to WOT to discourage bore glazing) forever, despite the admiral loading it to the max.
The tides are my department and we've often had 12 knots on the log for 3/4 hours.
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Old 11-18-2017, 03:32 AM   #46
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Originally Posted by Cooper Canvas View Post
Not to ruffle any feathers , or get kicked off the Trawler forum , but has anyone ever heard of someone really loading up a trawler with a semi displacement hull with a lot of horse power ? I mean to really get it up and over . I have a 1979 ms 34 . This boat is new to me but have run many commercial fishing boats with almost the same hull (why I bought the 34 )and by not being speed demons ,we usually get up easy to 18 to 19 with a 380 hp with boat balanced correctly . Yes ,I am enjoying going slower and yes, I enjoy the fuel economy and no, I am not repowering . Just wondering if anyone did it and what was the result?

Hi,
When I applied my NT home on the other side of the Baltic Sea, the trip was about 550-600nm and drove all the way to 15 knots, except for 3 refueling and doging boat anchorage or marinas for 3 nights.

After that, sometimes when the unlucky wave follows the quarter. The boat works brilliantly at this speed and the throttle is in accordance with Cummins, no problem, other than money burns and returns to the sky, but for all it does not broblems, Unfortunately for me .

If you want to drive quickly often, the better choice would be planig Hull which is very stable to drive at SD speed in a really rough ocean and in a suitable wave of planig ups + 22-knots and some times cruising "trawler" speed when sea is gentle..

NBs
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Old 11-18-2017, 07:43 AM   #47
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EGT? Is that exhaust gas temperature?
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Old 11-18-2017, 11:54 AM   #48
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Old 11-18-2017, 12:04 PM   #49
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EGT? Is that exhaust gas temperature?
Yes
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Old 11-18-2017, 12:37 PM   #50
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Old 11-18-2017, 11:57 PM   #51
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Originally Posted by Cooper Canvas View Post
Not to ruffle any feathers , or get kicked off the Trawler forum , but has anyone ever heard of someone really loading up a trawler with a semi displacement hull with a lot of horse power ? I mean to really get it up and over . I have a 1979 ms 34 . This boat is new to me but have run many commercial fishing boats with almost the same hull (why I bought the 34 )and by not being speed demons ,we usually get up easy to 18 to 19 with a 380 hp with boat balanced correctly . Yes ,I am enjoying going slower and yes, I enjoy the fuel economy and no, I am not repowering . Just wondering if anyone did it and what was the result?
The 34 Californian had been powered with everything from twin 85hp Perkins 4.236s to Detroit 250s like chc's. My cruise with twin 4.236s is 7.5K and WOT 10K. Chc's WOT is 23K! It's quite a ride but the bow is so high that the lower helm visibility is restricted. At those speeds, it's a FB-run boat only.

I think the sweetspot with this hull would be the 200-210 Perkins 6.354 or Cat 3208 for about a 12-14 kt speed. More ER room with the big Perkins though.

Quote:
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And as Baker says, the coolant cooled oil coolers work well in keeping oil up to temperature under light loads. No mention by Sinter as to keeping oil temps up in the + 180F range.
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Eric....the coolant "cooled" oil is a good thing. In the Cummins it always comes up to temp and the oil comes up right along with it. In the Yanmar, the disparity was shocking.....the coolant could be 180 and the oil temp could be almost cool to the touch.
My Perkins 4.236s run at about 165*F oil temp. They've been described to me as "over cooled", but they do not seem to suffer from the 'neglect'. On this engine, it appears to have no negative effect.

Last summer my port oil cooler sprung a leak on a long trip so I had to bypass it for about 10 hrs of operation. The temps rose to and stayed at 240*F without the oil cooler connected. I was impressed. (Yes, I changed the oil when we returned and replaced the cooler stack.)
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Old 11-19-2017, 07:01 AM   #52
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"My Perkins 4.236s run at about 165*F oil temp."

ALL engines have blowby , which puts combustion byproducts into the engine lube oil.

Warmer oil temperatures will evaporate these fluids faster.

There is usually enough produced that folks , looking on a dipstick, think there engine burns NO oil.

Modern diesel oil is about 20% additives , mostly to help with EGR contamination.

IF your oil is changed frequently enough the additives will get the acid in the blow by .
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Old 12-31-2017, 09:16 PM   #53
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my addition may be pointless. I understand your concerns about too much engine.

I,m in that boat also.

Too much engine for my 32'er. My engine now is old (40yrs) v555 cummins @217 hp, yet it has done fine at 7 -8k. For the last 30 years. Originally powered to plane but cannot because we carry too much, er, stuff.

If you buy a boat with what you consider to be too much hp it doesn't mean it has to be used. Yes run it up for 10-15 minutes once daily on a long run to clean it up if concerned.

Not wot. Not needed. Just bring it up to a point where it is working harder on a slow plane or just on to the lower portion of the hump.

For a good normal cruise speed stay just below,10-15%, the hump speed , and it will be loaded sufficiently to be fully at operating temps which is what is important. That has also "derated" the engine.


As pointed out you will have a tad more mtc. With a seawater cooled after cooler but not that big deal unless ignored.


Stop worrying so much about the engine hp unless you are in the position to spec. Exactly what you want or do a repower. Just learn to run and maintain it smartly and whatever you have will serve well.

I strongly suggest you add one of the most important guages, egt. It will tell you ,with some experience, just how hard you are operation g the engine, overloading or easily.

Jmo.
egt?
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Old 12-31-2017, 09:29 PM   #54
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egt?
Exhaust Gas Temperature
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Old 01-01-2018, 12:08 AM   #55
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Yes, EGT is exhaust gas temperature.

Unfortunately usually not installed by builders but one of the most important guages on the boat especially if you want the engine to have a long life.
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Old 01-07-2018, 06:21 PM   #56
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Engine Power

I have a 2007 Mariner Seville Pilot House 37 (Helmsman 38) which I bought in 2015. The PO had the Cummins QSB 5.9 re-programmed from 220 HP to 380 HP. He also has Bennett trim tabs. I guess he thought he might get her up on a plane, but at 40,000 lbs. fully loaded, no way was she ever going to plane. I can cruise at 7-8 knots on 3 GPM , but if I firewall it, I only get up to about 11-12 Knots but I am burning 17 GPM . I have had very few occasions where I pushed it that hard, other than to "blow it out" now and then. We do have some very strong tidal currents in my area, especially going through narrow passages against max flood/ebb, and actually needed the extra power, but I'm pretty sure boat would have been fine with the 220 HP configuration. Does anyone want to buy a set of used Bennett trim tabs? Or can anyone explain what possible good they are on an 8 Kt boat?
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Old 01-07-2018, 06:28 PM   #57
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I have a 2007 Mariner Seville Pilot House 37 (Helmsman 38) which I bought in 2015. The PO had the Cummins QSB 5.9 re-programmed from 220 HP to 380 HP. He also has Bennett trim tabs. I guess he thought he might get her up on a plane, but at 40,000 lbs. fully loaded, no way was she ever going to plane. I can cruise at 7-8 knots on 3 GPM , but if I firewall it, I only get up to about 11-12 Knots but I am burning 17 GPM . I have had very few occasions where I pushed it that hard, other than to "blow it out" now and then. We do have some very strong tidal currents in my area, especially going through narrow passages against max flood/ebb, and actually needed the extra power, but I'm pretty sure boat would have been fine with the 220 HP configuration. Does anyone want to buy a set of used Bennett trim tabs? Or can anyone explain what possible good they are on an 8 Kt boat?

Leave the trim tabs on it would cost more to remove them and fill the holes than the second hand market.They also look good on the inventory list when you sell the boat
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Old 01-07-2018, 06:55 PM   #58
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Sharpseadog: My days of working on engines ended a long time ago, so I generally stay out of these discussions, but I was wondering about a few things you have posted.

You noted:

"The PO had the Cummins QSB 5.9 re-programmed from 220 HP to 380 HP." I have never heard of anyone doing this. So he upgraded the turbo and coolers as well? I would assume this is a fairly extensive project and not just some programming.

" I guess he thought he might get her up on a plane, but at 40,000 lbs. fully loaded, no way was she ever going to plane." I don't think anyone who buys this boat expects to be on plane. The builder and many others like the 380 to get in the semi/displacement mode for some extra speed if they need it.

"But I'm pretty sure boat would have been fine with the 220 HP configuration." I think the builder would also agree with this. 250 is the standard power package, but many decide to upgrade. It could also help on resale.

"Can anyone explain what possible good they are on an 8 Kt boat? " I don't know either. No trim tabs on the new 43 that I ordered.
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Old 01-07-2018, 07:48 PM   #59
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I've posted this before but here goes again.
I used to think the T.T. were pointless on my boat but it came with them so I did not have a choice. They were there.
Most of our boats are semi displacement/semi planing hulls.
The T.T. can take a list out of the boat attitude while running.
The T.T. can actually reduce a big rolling stern wave, by lifting the stern a bit, if you are pushing the hull speed a bit.
I can actually hear the engine unload a bit from no tab to full tab.
The biggest difference comes with full tanks.
When the boat has burned off a bunch of fuel and we have used a bunch of water I back the tabs off since I do not want to push the bow down.
Of course in heavy following water they are fully backed off.
Sometimes in heavy head water they are backed off as I want the bow to lift that bit sooner and more readily.

My tabs are really too small to make a big difference but a difference they do make.
I found mine make the most noticeable difference when the boat is heavily loaded for a trip.

If you have them try them. You may find they are of more use than you realize. If you really find they don't make ANY difference then just back them off.
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Old 01-07-2018, 08:03 PM   #60
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Sharpseadog: My days of working on engines ended a long time ago, so I generally stay out of these discussions, but I was wondering about a few things you have posted.

You noted:

"The PO had the Cummins QSB 5.9 re-programmed from 220 HP to 380 HP." I have never heard of anyone doing this. So he upgraded the turbo and coolers as well? I would assume this is a fairly extensive project and not just some programming.

" I guess he thought he might get her up on a plane, but at 40,000 lbs. fully loaded, no way was she ever going to plane." I don't think anyone who buys this boat expects to be on plane. The builder and many others like the 380 to get in the semi/displacement mode for some extra speed if they need it.

"But I'm pretty sure boat would have been fine with the 220 HP configuration." I think the builder would also agree with this. 250 is the standard power package, but many decide to upgrade. It could also help on resale.

"Can anyone explain what possible good they are on an 8 Kt boat? " I don't know either. No trim tabs on the new 43 that I ordered.
I have witnessed this re-programming. Cummins tech shows up with his computer, plugs it into the engine ...... Presto ! no other changes. Just for a laugh get a quote from Cummins for that engine as a 220 and a 340. The price difference will shock you.
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