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Old 10-07-2015, 08:56 AM   #21
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And what happens when the boat is gone the next morning? How do mechanics recognize the boaters who won't pay their bills? Nobody likes spending time chasing deadbeats.
They report the theft and upgrade their security.

I just know I've never given authority in advance to charge my credit card. I've also never authorized work without a written agreement. I don't even trust the utility companies with automatic charges to my cards. I pay my bills promptly but I do want to see them before I pay them.

Do you give auto repair shops your card in advance and allow them to charge it without you seeing the bill?
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Old 10-07-2015, 12:49 PM   #22
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Nobody gets my CC number. Nobody.


If someone wants a deposit up front, I do that but I get the contract in writing and the deposit is noted on the contract.


On lengthy jobs I insist that a "drop dead date" is written into the contract. After that date it's going to cost the other party $XX per day until the work is completed. I tell them to set the date and make sure there are allowances for the Murphy Factor built in, but it's clear I won't put up with any delays past that date without it costing them.


I did that once on a garage I had built. The contractor set the date, I suggested he add a week in just to be safe, so he did. He ended up going over that date by one day but I didn't make him pay. He later told me my job was a high priority because he didn't want to pay $100/day.


I'm lucky with my boat mechanic. I tell him what needs to be done and give him plenty of time to do it. He knows where the spare key is and does the work when it's convenient to his schedule. But I also give him a date when I'll need the boat so he knows what his time frame needs to be. We treat each other well and it always reflects in my bill.
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Old 10-07-2015, 02:18 PM   #23
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Nobody gets my CC number. Nobody.

On lengthy jobs I insist that a "drop dead date" is written into the contract. After that date it's going to cost the other party $XX per day until the work is completed. I tell them to set the date and make sure there are allowances for the Murphy Factor built in, but it's clear I won't put up with any delays past that date without it costing them.


I did that once on a garage I had built. The contractor set the date, I suggested he add a week in just to be safe, so he did. He ended up going over that date by one day but I didn't make him pay. He later told me my job was a high priority because he didn't want to pay $100/day.

.
Great point on the drop dead date for major projects. It's common in the construction industry. If one is going to use it they should specify the penalty and even why there's a penalty.

Many people put "time is of the essence" in a contract. It means absolutely nothing. You still have to prove it really was. Just because it's in the contract does not give an assumption it's true.
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Old 10-07-2015, 03:30 PM   #24
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A real-life land pirate:
Tampa man accused of illegally selling MLB pitcher's yacht
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Old 10-07-2015, 05:32 PM   #25
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Well, I've not been home for most of the summer, but did we ever hear anymore about the repossessed boat taken from the Harbourtowne in Dania?

That was a pirate like move as well.
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Old 10-08-2015, 07:09 AM   #26
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"Nobody gets my CC number. Nobody."

However shopping on line is nice.

Our solution is to have a second checking account (same bank) and a debit card with NO OVERDRAFT protection.

Need something from on line , it takes but seconds to loasd the card , plus a couple of bucks extra for shipping.

With most balances remaining under $10.00 there is little to loose.
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Old 10-08-2015, 10:51 AM   #27
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Or use PayPal. The merchant never sees your CC number.
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Old 10-08-2015, 10:52 AM   #28
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"Nobody gets my CC number. Nobody."

However shopping on line is nice.

Our solution is to have a second checking account (same bank) and a debit card with NO OVERDRAFT protection.

Need something from on line , it takes but seconds to loasd the card , plus a couple of bucks extra for shipping.

With most balances remaining under $10.00 there is little to loose.
That is a great idea.
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Old 10-08-2015, 11:00 AM   #29
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"Nobody gets my CC number. Nobody."

However shopping on line is nice.

Our solution is to have a second checking account (same bank) and a debit card with NO OVERDRAFT protection.

Need something from on line , it takes but seconds to loasd the card , plus a couple of bucks extra for shipping.

With most balances remaining under $10.00 there is little to loose.
Such a very small percentage of credit card theft and abuse comes from online. Online with reputable merchants is by far the safest place you use a card. The only significant risk online is if your personal computer has had malware installed providing someone all your keystrokes.

Your recommendation against overdraft protection is one I endorse more than fully. If you don't overdraft on your own, then the only chance of it is a thief doing it, and why on earth would you want to protect them?

The real risk of credit cards has been card processing companies which hits regardless of where you use it, large retail merchants exacerbated by the slowness of the US card companies to go to chip technology, gas stations for the same reason, and restaurants where your card is placed in someone else's hand and they disappear with it for various periods of time.

Your other protection is setting up alerts on all your cards to notify you of any large transactions or others outside your parameters and checking your accounts regularly.
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Old 10-08-2015, 01:07 PM   #30
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Your other protection is setting up alerts on all your cards to notify you of any large transactions or others outside your parameters and checking your accounts regularly.
I set up alerts with the bank and had been receiving them for a couple of years now but in the last week, the alerts are now coming from Visa instead of the bank. I don't really care who sends the alerts but was surprised that it happened in that I don't recall any correspondence indicating a change was being made.
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Old 10-08-2015, 01:08 PM   #31
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Great point on the drop dead date for major projects. It's common in the construction industry. If one is going to use it they should specify the penalty and even why there's a penalty.

Many people put "time is of the essence" in a contract. It means absolutely nothing. You still have to prove it really was. Just because it's in the contract does not give an assumption it's true.
In days of yore, contracts were often about farm produce, and stuff was shipped on sailing vessels. Dates in contracts were understood to be estimates, and courts would allow reasonable deviations from those estimates. The presumption that dates in a contract are merely estimates survives in US contract law today.

In our modern world, parties often want dates in a contract to be strictly complied with; the dates are not to be treated as estimates, and any failure to perform in accordance with the dates in the contract will be a breach. "Time is of the essence" is a term of art used to express the contracting parties agreement in this regard, and the phrase is very important when it appears.

US contract law will not enforce penalties.
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Old 10-08-2015, 01:45 PM   #32
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"Time is of the essence" is a term of art used to express the contracting parties agreement in this regard, and the phrase is very important when it appears.

US contract law will not enforce penalties.
We're getting a bit technical, but I somewhat disagree with those two statements. Like everything legal, there are caveats.

Time is of the essence is sometimes an important clause, but when it comes down to it the harmed party must still prove it really was in court plus the damages from not meeting that time. The statement by itself doesn't get you anything.

You're correct that the law doesn't enforce penalties. You don't write them as penalties. They are agreed amounts for liquidated damages as a result of missing the time. They are enforceable. They can't be ridiculous numbers that have no relationship to reality, but if they're reasonable and based on some facts, then they're enforceable.

A simple example. Building a Wendy's. If you're late, my opening is delayed. Costs are incurred and profits are lost. Rather than have to determine later we agree to x amount per day as liquidated damages. It's not a penalty, although it does penalize.
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Old 10-08-2015, 02:42 PM   #33
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We're getting a bit technical, but I somewhat disagree with those two statements. Like everything legal, there are caveats.

Time is of the essence is sometimes an important clause, but when it comes down to it the harmed party must still prove it really was in court plus the damages from not meeting that time. The statement by itself doesn't get you anything.

You're correct that the law doesn't enforce penalties. You don't write them as penalties. They are agreed amounts for liquidated damages as a result of missing the time. They are enforceable. They can't be ridiculous numbers that have no relationship to reality, but if they're reasonable and based on some facts, then they're enforceable.

A simple example. Building a Wendy's. If you're late, my opening is delayed. Costs are incurred and profits are lost. Rather than have to determine later we agree to x amount per day as liquidated damages. It's not a penalty, although it does penalize.
If a contract contains a "time is of the essence" provision, and one party misses a date, then that party has breached, period. The non-breaching party does not have to prove the date was important. Lots of consequences can flow from breach. Absent a liquidated damages provision, damages will have to be proven.

Penalties are punitive; liquidated damages are not. The words matter, here. Breach will not be punished (see "efficient breach"). As long as a LD provision is not a penalty in disguise, it will usually be enforced.
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Old 10-08-2015, 04:53 PM   #34
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I use PayPal for almost all online shopping. PayPal debits my checking account directly and my bank calls me before they approve a purchase from PayPal if it's over $100.


There are MANY advantages to doing all your banking with a smaller, home town bank.
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Old 10-08-2015, 05:02 PM   #35
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I use PayPal for almost all online shopping. PayPal debits my checking account directly and my bank calls me before they approve a purchase from PayPal if it's over $100.


.
I've used a Paypal Debit card, linked to my paypal business account for years. For the most part it's worked well. My transactions were almost exclusively online. I had different cards for the same account, one in my wallet, the other exclusively online. on 3 occasions the online card was hacked. in Every instance Paypal stood behind it and covered the fraudulent activity...This is with $30-40K worth of transactions a year. IMO, it's pretty safe!
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Old 10-08-2015, 05:13 PM   #36
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I've used a Paypal Debit card, linked to my paypal business account for years. For the most part it's worked well. My transactions were almost exclusively online. I had different cards for the same account, one in my wallet, the other exclusively online. on 3 occasions the online card was hacked. in Every instance Paypal stood behind it and covered the fraudulent activity...This is with $30-40K worth of transactions a year. IMO, it's pretty safe!
Actually you pointed out a bit of a contradiction. People are using Paypal for safety. However, there have been many reports of Paypal accounts being hacked. Just google "paypal hacked" and then decide for yourself. This doesn't distinguish them from banks though, which have had their share of problems.

Whatever source you use and however you conduct business, alerts and watching the account remain essential.
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Old 10-08-2015, 07:19 PM   #37
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Actually you pointed out a bit of a contradiction. People are using Paypal for safety. However, there have been many reports of Paypal accounts being hacked. Just google "paypal hacked" and then decide for yourself. This doesn't distinguish them from banks though, which have had their share of problems.

Whatever source you use and however you conduct business, alerts and watching the account remain essential.
In my case it was no different than using any other debit card. It just happened to be Paypal branded and linked to that account.

Watching your account is critical. In my cases it was literally caught by me within an hour or so of the fraudulent charges registering..

Nothing is failsafe these days..
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Old 10-09-2015, 01:30 PM   #38
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I fail to see the problem. The owner simply had an unrealistic expectation of his boats value. That isn't exactly uncommon. Just because someone doesn't want to sell you something at the price you set, doesn't make them a land pirate. They might be an idiot, but that doesn't mean they are trying to cheat you.

Why were you making an offer on the piece of junk anyway?
Only made an offer because he didn't understand, "We don't want to make an offer". In my text thanking him for his time I said we were continuing our search and didn't want to make an offer. Then the next day on the phone he kept insisting I throw a number out. I told him three times we didn't want to buy the boat. To see how serious he was about "working with us", I finally told him 10k. He could have started negotiating but instead, hung up the phone. Other pertinent info: His wife is living 200 miles away and insists he get rid of the boat and move his butt to their home. Also, I know his boss and because my pirate sense was tingling, made a call confirming my intuition. Also found out, unbeknownst to him, his replacement had been hired that day.
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Old 10-09-2015, 01:37 PM   #39
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Penalties and liquidated damages clauses are both minefields. A better way to keep your contractor on the ball and avoid possible misunderstanding (or litigation) is to include incentives for early performance.
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Old 10-09-2015, 05:28 PM   #40
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Only made an offer because he didn't understand, "We don't want to make an offer". In my text thanking him for his time I said we were continuing our search and didn't want to make an offer. Then the next day on the phone he kept insisting I throw a number out. I told him three times we didn't want to buy the boat. To see how serious he was about "working with us", I finally told him 10k. He could have started negotiating but instead, hung up the phone. Other pertinent info: His wife is living 200 miles away and insists he get rid of the boat and move his butt to their home. Also, I know his boss and because my pirate sense was tingling, made a call confirming my intuition. Also found out, unbeknownst to him, his replacement had been hired that day.
hehe, great story. Yeah, the poor guy has some issues. I see why you would make that offer in that situation. It sounds as if he would have been much better off taking your offer!
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