How do delivery captains work?

[go-planing]

Some people make everything in life hard...

In your one trip you had more failures than I have had in 45 years of personal boats, hundreds of deliveries, and 15 years of running commercial boats..maybe that should tell you something..

Every weekend completely clueless boaters take their boats out and have a great time....yes a few have issues...but most dont.

Boating is relatively easy if not in over your head.

No, some people take on hard things in life...

You clearly only operate well maintained equipment. This boat was not that and I knew it.

 

[ksanders]

No, some people take on hard things in life...

You clearly only operate well maintained equipment. This boat was not that and I knew it.

That statement right there is the root of the problem.

Why would anybody leave on a delivery trip in a boat that was known to be not running right.

It seems to me that anybody doing that is asking for trouble. Why not fix any mechanical issues that could affect the trip beforehand.

 

[Bay Pelican]

That statement right there is the root of the problem.

Why would anybody leave on a delivery trip in a boat that was known to be not running right.

It seems to me that anybody doing that is asking for trouble. Why not fix any mechanical issues that could affect the trip beforehand.

Amen

 

[psneeld]

Wow!

My prior post about boating is usually pretty easy stuff seems to have taken traction....wish it hadnt.....

But......

The statement about it can be hard and how an almost unbelievable amount of bad stuff happened in one trip ( more problems than most have in a lifetime)....was interesting....

When that was pointed out...it was because he took a trip in a boat that he KNEW would be hard...and some people take on things that are HARD.

Can't say for anyone else.....but that logic sounds a LOT like Washington, DC ese......

And no, the boats I run are not well maintained.....they are small business marine operations where to keep going duct tape, pipe patches, jumper wires, old fuel, etc..etc...are all in place. But even delivering brand new boats from the factory have issues.

Small on the go repairs that are a PIA aren't really all that hard...if they are....just call an assistance tower. $175 could have made that marina entry stressless.

If the trip is too remote for assistance towing...taking a known disaster on a delivery sounds like, well, we all know.

 

[psneeld]

The comment about delivery skippers versus owner can be blurred if you let it.

In writing, it isn't blurry.

I spell it out....I am either a navagation and mate if the owner is competent and just needs a second hand or comforting.....or captain and they understand that.

Usually it isn't a big deal, because even before we board the bost....they know who really is in charge when things get pst them.

The issue is worse when 2 delivery captains are aboard and it is not clear of their roles....next time I do one of those, I want it spelled out better.

 

[Art]

In all the posts I read... never heard what is considered the average "per day rate" for hiring a Captain; sans food, dock, fuel, repair, boarding, travel costs etc.

4, 5, 6, 7 hundred dollars...??

 

[CPseudonym]

Not sure Art but if it's $700/day plus expenses I'm telling my boss to pound salt come Monday.

 

[Art]

Not sure Art but if it's $700/day plus expenses I'm telling my boss to pound salt come Monday.

The word "salary" comes from the word "salt". That makes no never mind to anything much... just thought I'd mention in regard to your desire for boss pounding! - LOL

 

[psneeld]

Really depends on the boat and delivery.

A 30 foot Sea Ray for a day might $300 plus transportation to/from....but no per diem.

Even that is high as some whipped snapper looking for experience, and there are plenty around will do it for $100.

Delivering a 3 million plus, newer yacht down the coastand I have no idea as I would probably never break into the limited circle of delivery captains despite my quals. That Capt and crew might be close to $1000 a day ($500 per captain, $250 for each crew)...but Capt Bill or BandB I am sure have more current/accurate info.

 

[Capt.Bill11]

In all the posts I read... never heard what is considered the average "per day rate" for hiring a Captain; sans food, dock, fuel, repair, boarding, travel costs etc.

4, 5, 6, 7 hundred dollars...??

$250 - $400 or so per day depending on the size of the boat and type of trip for a captain.

$100 - $200 or so for crew

Of course you have retired guys who'll do trips for next to nothing. Personally, I think they should stay home and let the rest of us make a living so we too can retire one day.

 

[Art]

TY ps and CB! Now I know...

 

[psneeld]

$250 - $400 or so per day depending on the size of the boat and type of trip for a captain.

$100 - $200 or so for crew

Of course you have retired guys who'll do trips for next to nothing. Personally, I think they should stay home and let the rest of us make a living so we too can retire one day.

This is not for you Capt Bill but just my take on the whole industry...

It is amazing how many guys have gotten into the business thinking they can make a living at it.

Not realizing to take enough trips at those lower pay scales means being gone all the time. For some that works but not for most.

The dilution of the business has the really good captains limited to the better jobs, but they can be few and far between. The average new boat owner looking for a captain will hire the neighbors nephew who just got his captains license and the kid is willing to work for $100 a day. Or as Capt Bill said the retired guy, the same for diluting the pay, but may be highly experienced...or not....

Then there is the internet where there is another source of captains that will run the boat for free just cause its a trip they don't pay for.

In 5 years of teaching captains licensing in a really slow area to get big classes...I probably still graduated 500 people just at the six pack level. I would bet at least 50 of them have done some deliveries at some point in the same area I was competing for those deliveries.

A lot of these guys got their licenses with all their sea time on other peoples boats and/or maybe owned something as big as a 23 Whaler or Grady White. Many had never boated outside of a 100 mile radius of where they primarily boated from. Yes many were conscientious, nice guys. Hopefully all did great deliveries...but there is clearly an experience gap between these guys and the top tier delivery guys.

Hopefully Capt Ron is not the gold standard though you would get a lot of good experience going along on a delivery like that...if you survive....

But there really is a quantum leap in the experience levels of many delivery captains. The better ones deserve not to have to compete at the same pay with all of them due to lack of research into real qualifications.


And no...I don't think I am anywhere near the top tier guys.

 

[sunchaser]

I just got back from helping an inexperienced gent move his new-to-him old boat some four hundred miles. Unanticipated failures encountered during the three day trip included instantaneous disconnect of a propeller shaft coupling while at high power on plane, transmission shifting problems, .

If Hurths and hydraulic actuated cables, the shifting mechanism just adjacent to transmission requires cleaning and a generous WD40 soaking spring and fall. If not done, the levers and springs may not remain in parallel and gears then will not properly engage.

As an annual event, routine checking the shaft coupling bolts on this and any vessel for torque is a smart thing to do. I checked mine last month and found a few loose ones.

Also, SP was this not the vessel that had been repowered and been sitting for a very long time? If so, easy to see why the delivery was with a few issues.

 

[BandB]

$250 - $400 or so per day depending on the size of the boat and type of trip for a captain.

$100 - $200 or so for crew

Of course you have retired guys who'll do trips for next to nothing. Personally, I think they should stay home and let the rest of us make a living so we too can retire one day.

I agree with Capt. Bill's numbers. I was about to say $350-400 per day and half of that or so for a mate $150-200. All for our area. As the boat gets larger and requires a 200 Ton or 500 Ton Master, then the numbers do increase.

All expenses are paid. Food, transportation, lodging on boat.

I don't fault the semi-retired guys, but where I do have issues is those who have retired and are no longer current, haven't kept up with things and are several years out of practice. Plus there are some who never really were captains you would want for such a trip. They'd spent their careers running local tour boats and could really do nothing toward any maintenance required while running. I know one such captain who had electrical problems constantly, left a boat poorly tied leading to damage, started a diesel fill with gasoline and had to get the tanks pumped, and did not know the autopilot had adjustments on it. The owner planned to do the loop and in two years they made it less than half the way before the owner called the trip off and had a delivery captain bring it around to Florida to be sold.

The experienced delivery captain has run hundreds, if not thousands, of different boats and is prepared to handle most anything that can happen. They also make sure you have tow coverage and don't hesitate to get a tow rather then run a boat with a condition that may cause further damage.

As for who is in charge, you determine in advance who the Master is and 98% of the time it will be the paid Captain. There should be no ambiguity. Now, the owner can fire the captain if he doesn't like his choices and then look for another. I know of one person who posted here who got a delivery captain and sent after the first leg of the trip, she sent him on his way and hired another.

Today, a lot of captains who do deliveries also have a group of boats in their home area that they manage.

 

[psneeld]

I hope there is not a misconception here....for smaller vessels and I am not sure what the real cut off is...


You don't need a captains license to be a delivery captain...even if the owner and family is on board...straight from the Philadelphia USCG Marine Inspection Office. The owner and family at that point are not "passengers for hire"....like any DOT licensed driver that picks up an unknowing fare...the owner should know you qualifications to care for him and family


Now what your insurance requires is a different matter and at some point, pretty big though, the vessel may too for legal operation.

 

[BandB]

But there really is a quantum leap in the experience levels of many delivery captains. The better ones deserve not to have to compete at the same pay with all of them due to lack of research into real qualifications.

And no...I don't think I am anywhere near the top tier guys.

I would say you're probably at the top in your areas of specialization and highly capable in many other areas. The fact you'd type what you did says clearly that you know what you're incredibly good at, what you can do satisfactorily, and those areas someone else might have more experience or knowledge.

You mentioned teaching and in maritime school, we've been amazed at some of those who have been doing it for years but seem totally lost. I'm sure you taught some that you thought "no way I'd want to have them as my captain." A lot of kids get into the industry thinking it'd be a "cool" job and they'd get to travel. 6 Packs are a unique license to the US and I see recreational boaters getting them, mates who think it would be nice but will never do more and 20 year captains who never got more. I also see a lot of people with six packs hired for jobs they are not legally licensed to do.

I know a lot of captains and I'd select different ones of them for different jobs. Fortunately, most of them stick to their areas of expertise. I have one friend who will run at least 10 different boats this month, two of which he will have never been on before. Has run many more when engaged for a lot of jobs by the boat transport companies and loading and unloading. His knowledge though is 40-90'. He's captained larger but it's been years. On the other hand I have a friend who has worked for the same owner for years and is currently running a 164' boat. There's also a huge different in what commercial shipping captains do and small pleasure boat captains do and I think it's an insult to both if the other feels they could just step in and do the job as well.

 

[psneeld]

In all fairness, if a ship captain is a boater by hobby, probably not too shabby at it.


But vice versa would be a real exception.


I used to love when we got to the Navigational Aids portion of captains licensing. Many of the guys who were all puffed chests and brags before classes were near tears about an hour and a half into all the different kinds of aids and flashing light characteristics. They had no clue how complex it can be if you REALLY have to know the answer other than drive your Whaler out some local inlet with 6 unlit and one Morse alpha buoy...

 

[go-planing]

If Hurths and hydraulic actuated cables, the shifting mechanism just adjacent to transmission requires cleaning and a generous WD40 soaking spring and fall. If not done, the levers and springs may not remain in parallel and gears then will not properly engage.

As an annual event, routine checking the shaft coupling bolts on this and any vessel for torque is a smart thing to do. I checked mine last month and found a few loose ones.

Also, SP was this not the vessel that had been repowered and been sitting for a very long time? If so, easy to see why the delivery was with a few issues.

Yes, it was the repowered boat....twin Perkins Sabres installed in 2008 with 150 hours since. Seven hours last year....maybe. Of course one would expect issues enroute. But no reason to blow a perfect weather window on the unpredictable Lake Michigan and Huron...and cause the owner to incur even more expense than he's already suffered.

I also check the couplings on my own boat annually. That failure at high power will get your attention. Thank goodness the overspeed governor on the engine worked and saved the power plant...and that the dripless seal didn't blow out. We fixed the shaft coupling and readjusted the seal ourselves after a frustrating search for hardware.

This boat supposedly had an on-the-hard survey done before purchase a few weeks ago, but I have to wonder what the surveyor actually looked at. The shaft coupling is buried at the very back of the bilge and I doubt he wormed his way to the back beside the engine to look at it. This had one of those composite vibration couplers between the transmission flange and the prop shaft. Coupler was fine...it was the bolts to the transmission flange that sheared. Grade five hardware. Shaft to coupler were grade eight. Hmmm.

ZF transmissions. Looks like the engine installer used the original shift cables and then swapped the engine cables/shifters for the gearbox side. Have a hunch the throttle cables (now the shift cables) were a little tired. The binding seemed to be between the lower helm shifters and the upper....worked fairly smoothly at the lower station, but would get stuck in "forward" at the upper helm. Very disconcerting when I was putting the boat in a slip.

Addressed loss of alternators by running the genset. Got it home for the maintenance cost of six bolts and a gazillion filters. Wonder how many paid captains would crawl around in the hot bilge to help repair that coupling and deal with the fuel problem....

 

[psneeld]

The paid captains that contract for and are paid separately for maintenance.


Some can't do maintenance, some refuse.


To me it's just more pay and a shorter trip.

 

[BandB]

I hope there is not a misconception here....for smaller vessels and I am not sure what the real cut off is...


You don't need a captains license to be a delivery captain...even if the owner and family is on board...straight from the Philadelphia USCG Marine Inspection Office. The owner and family at that point are not "passengers for hire"....like any DOT licensed driver that picks up an unknowing fare...the owner should know you qualifications to care for him and family


Now what your insurance requires is a different matter and at some point, pretty big though, the vessel may too for legal operation.

Passenger for Hire: means a passenger for whom consideration is contributed as a condition of carriage on the vessel, whether directly or
indirectly flowing to the owner, charterer, operator, agent, or any other person having an interest in the vessel.

Can't run your own boat as a charter, etc., without license.

An OUPV (Operator of Uninspected Passenger Vessels) or 6 Pack can carry up to six passengers total and no more than 100 nm from shore, no more than a 100 ton boat, with the exception of the USVI where they can carry 12 passengers. They also can't captain an "inspected" vessel, even if it isn't carrying more than 6 passengers.

 

[go-planing]

... it's just more pay and a shorter trip.

Of course....more pay. What was I thinking. Always about the money.

 

[psneeld]

Passenger for Hire: means a passenger for whom consideration is contributed as a condition of carriage on the vessel, whether directly or
indirectly flowing to the owner, charterer, operator, agent, or any other person having an interest in the vessel.

Can't run your own boat as a charter, etc., without license.

An OUPV (Operator of Uninspected Passenger Vessels) or 6 Pack can carry up to six passengers total and no more than 100 nm from shore, no more than a 100 ton boat, with the exception of the USVI where they can carry 12 passengers. They also can't captain an "inspected" vessel, even if it isn't carrying more than 6 passengers.

You can quote that all you want but it doesn't apply to hiring a captain for people who are not paying anything to go along....

It is for things like cruise ships, ferries, launch services, etc...etc...where the "passenger" does not have a chance to qualify the "captain"...

I can see the very close similarity with running a charter...but it still falls outside what the USCG interpreted for me (waited almost 2 years with constant bugging) that a delivery captain is not taking "passengers for hire"...they belong on the vessel so to speak...it is theirs and the owner can relieve the captain any time there is doubt in him/her....try that on any other "passenger for hire" vessel and see who leave in handcuffs.

You don't think I had a horse in this race trying to teach captains and their million questions every class? I researched the crap out of every question I didn't know cold. I was like a dog with a bone on this one. The USCG sent me an email...long since eaten by some cheap computer...so, if it has changed (and I try to keep abreast of those kind of changes) I haven't heard even of any discussion of it.

 

[psneeld]

Of course....more pay. What was I thinking. Always about the money.

I thought that is what jobs were for...


Right now I already have 4 hrs in helping for free a guy with an overturned hobie that got socked $900 for the tow in.

Tomorrow at 0730 I tow it for free to the forklift slip if the marina doesn't weigh in and want money for the boat being stored in an empty slip and use of the owners work boat.


One of hundreds of small favors I do around my marina and on the water all year.

So no, it's no more about the money than you working for free your whole life....lets not make this personal.

 

[go-planing]

...lets not make this personal.

You and a few others made it personal earlier in this discussion. Follow your own advice. Truce.

 

[BandB]

You can quote that all you want but it doesn't apply to hiring a captain for people who are not paying anything to go along....

It is for things like cruise ships, ferries, launch services, etc...etc...where the "passenger" does not have a chance to qualify the "captain"...

I can see the very close similarity with running a charter...but it still falls outside what the USCG interpreted for me (waited almost 2 years with constant bugging) that a delivery captain is not taking "passengers for hire"...they belong on the vessel so to speak...it is theirs and the owner can relieve the captain any time there is doubt in him/her....try that on any other "passenger for hire" vessel and see who leave in handcuffs.

You don't think I had a horse in this race trying to teach captains and their million questions every class? I researched the crap out of every question I didn't know cold. I was like a dog with a bone on this one. The USCG sent me an email...long since eaten by some cheap computer...so, if it has changed (and I try to keep abreast of those kind of changes) I haven't heard even of any discussion of it.

I wasn't meaning to imply anything different from what you were saying and was agreeing with what you said. Captaining a boat under 100 tons for the owner and his guests is not passengers for hire and so none of the rules apply. It's very clear that a passenger for hire must be paying to be on the trip and excludes the owner and his family. I think after those like you asking for clarification the USCG has now made it very clear, just as they told you years ago.

Yes, the captains who have been ignoring the rules for decades and try to justify it in class or those who are trying to say others are violating the laws, when they aren't.

We heard questions in classes from those with decades of experience that you sometimes wondered if maybe they were pranking the teacher.

 

[Art]

Here's a question:


If boat owner can legally hire and pay an unlicensed driver to "Captain" his pleasure boat, can the owner then (in a completely separate business arrangement) bring passengers aboard (friends or otherwise) to pay the owner himself for a ride in his boat... such as for fishing or other things?


Just wondering.

 

[BandB]

Here's a question:


If boat owner can legally hire and pay an unlicensed driver to "Captain" his pleasure boat, can the owner then (in a completely separate business arrangement) bring passengers aboard (friends or otherwise) to pay the owner himself for a ride in his boat... such as for fishing or other things?


Just wondering.

No.

 

[psneeld]

Sorry BandB..took it wrong.

Have has so many say I was wrong on that one after their 15 minute discussion of it as a student in some other class....

Just had a women who has very little boating experience try and argue that an abandoned boat is automatically hers if she gets aboard first.

That's what a guy from her dock said....and backed up her experience. A guy died in her old marina, his 30 foot boat sat for years so she just went to register it in Maryland hand had no problem and now it hers.

OK......pretty scary what gets passed around marinas as fact.

 

[78puget-trawler]

If you had properly blessed your boat, any serious problems wouldn't occur until you had entered your home berth. That's been my experience.



As when a portion of my propeller shaft fell apart:

Looks like its off a Buick. Is it a V drive?

 

[BandB]

Sorry BandB..took it wrong.

Have has so many say I was wrong on that one after their 15 minute discussion of it as a student in some other class....

Just had a women who has very little boating experience try and argue that an abandoned boat is automatically hers if she gets aboard first.

That's what a guy from her dock said....and backed up her experience. A guy died in her old marina, his 30 foot boat sat for years so she just went to register it in Maryland hand had no problem and now it hers.

OK......pretty scary what gets passed around marinas as fact.

No problem. I've heard it wrong so many times. I've also seen people skirt it in ways that were clearly against the law. I've heard those with the squatters rights belief. Then there was one recently who was convinced the 6 pack was now good for 12 passengers until explained to him that it was only USVI. He said, "that's stupid, why would they do it just there." I explained just so USVI charterers could compete with the BVI. His conclusion was he was going to do it anyway.