How big is too big?

[mattkab]

Apparently we only keep boats for 3 years.

We are looking at a couple options for a new boat in the next year or two…. and have been debating the merits of a couple models (I’m intentionally not mentioning the models in this email yet to keep things theoretical). We (two adults, a 10yr old child, and a dog) currently have a single stateroom 34' CHB that we spend about a dozen nights aboard a year, and another couple dozen day trips. We want to spend more time aboard (inland Puget Sound primarily), but not having a 2nd stateroom for our daughter makes it less and less appealing, so we are starting to window shop.

A major concern is that one of the contending models is quite a bit larger than anything else we’ve been looking at — but the interior layout is just about ideal. It has two full staterooms, a third stateroom that is a combination of bunks and/or office, a full pilothouse, dinghy storage on the flybridge, and a covered aft cockpit. But at 45’ long we are a bit intimidated by the sheer size.

At a similar price point is another model that doesn’t have a pilothouse nor the 3rd stateroom, but gains full walk-around decks and stairs rather than a ladder to the flybridge (which is good for dogs). It’s, in general, a younger boat (1999 -> 2010 or so) with a 39’ length.

Previous boats that we've owned are a 27' Catalina sailboat, a 30' Catalina sailboat, and a 28' twin-engine Bayliner Flybridge.

Thoughts?

What questions should we be asking ourselves?

 

[Knot Salted]

Are you concerned about handling, or maintenance?

 

[mattkab]

Are you concerned about handling, or maintenance?

Handling primarily. I don't want to end up with a boat that has all the amenities that we want, but that we still don't use because we are afraid to take it out.

Or that we can't feel comfortable getting into an anchorage or dock.

 

[caltexflanc]

My thoughts are that it is a very personal decision unanswerable by anonymous strangers. Buy a boat that makes everyone happy and leads to more boating. Think through the operating and maintenance ergonomics with everyone involved in the process.

 

[Knot Salted]

If one is twin screws vs single, a larger boat (twin) may be much easier to handle...?

 

[clynn]

We were in a very similar situation not too long ago. Me, wife, two young boys. My 34 foot single engine boat that I bought when I was the only one who cared about boating was feeling smaller and smaller. We now have a 46 foot twin engine boat. I had the same concerns as you on handling, but I get more and more comfortable each time we take her out. We use the boat in some form or fashion nearly every week and it works way better for our current needs than my beloved 34 Mainship. At this point, I couldn't go back.

 

[JustBob]

Matt, quite a few of the charter companies up in Bellingham offer training by the day. You'll practice with a captain of theirs. Go out on a 50 or 60 footer, practice, practice, practice. Then when you start working with your own 45 footer it will seem easy.

I did this last year. My friend let me dock his 70 footer a bunch of times. When I did my charter on a 43 it was not even close to being intimidating.

@schaefferoil, although it has been many years since I have driven twins, a single with bow/stern thrusters (very popular here in the PNW) is the most simple to handle, IMHO. As long as you stay within the limits of what electric thrusters are capable of.

 

[hollywood8118]

I would feel pretty comfortable running a boat in the 80' range.. but I do not think I would be taking it off the dock much for a cocktail cruise with friends.. too much work and I dont want to pay for it.
When we had our custom built 50' heavy displacement trawler we did some short trips but the admiral didn't like driving the boat.. but it had all the comfort we wanted ..for two kids a dog and enough water toys to keep all happy.
When we moved down to the 40' Ocean Alexander the admiral started piloting the boat much more often and actually prefers the smaller boat.. and I like maintaining 10' less boat.
As comfortable.. pretty much so..
It depends all in what your needs are.

HOLLYWOOD

 

[dhays]

Matt,

We were in a similar situation. When moving to power vs sail, we wanted to keep the 2 staterooms.

Increasing the size of the boat by 10' is a lot. I went from a Catalina 36 to a Catalina 400. Only a 4' increase but it did take a bit of getting used to. However, the basic handling was the same and we adapted quickly.

We again increase 4' to our power boat. That transition has been a lot harder (only 2 weeks) since the boat handles entirely differently.

I don't think you would have a problem increasing that 10' since you already are familiar with handling a power boat. Likely the larger vessel will have a bow thruster or twins which could actually make it easier than what you are used to.

Where do you keep your boat now? Part of the equation may be where you can find moorage for a larger boat.

If you think that the increased size will allow you to use the boat more, I think it would be worth it.

 

[Capt.Bill11]

My thoughts are that it is a very personal decision unanswerable by anonymous strangers. Buy a boat that makes everyone happy and leads to more boating. Think through the operating and maintenance ergonomics with everyone involved in the process.

What George said.

But why not charter a 45' boat first and see what you think. My guess is you'll not want to go smaller once you try one and you'll be fine handling it after a bit of practice.

 

[mattkab]

Thanks everyone for the feedback. Interesting that most people lean towards the bigger boat.

Both boats have twin engine options, and the 40' can be found in a single.

Our marina has open 40' and 50' slips. Cost of course goes up, but it's a minor difference in the grand scheme of things.

On water training/chartering is a fantastic idea.

 

[markpierce]

If one is twin screws vs single, a larger boat (twin) may be much easier to handle...?

Cost-wise, I don't believe it's an issue in used boats as the vast majority have twin engines, but if purchasing a new one, have you recently priced diesel engines? A less-expensive bow thruster compensates for most maneuverability issues with a single engine.

 

[Sailor of Fortune]

Bigger boats are easier to handle.

 

[markpierce]

If I had wanted/afforded a 60-foot boat, I'd also want to afford one or two professional crew members. Fortunately, such a large boat would not be easy to use/handle in my waters.

 

[Nomad Willy]

When people buy a boat bigger that anything the've ever handled before of course more experience helps. But why worry about it? If you're going to ski, fly ultralights, drive a car ... you take some time for experienced guidance and or put yourself in the drivers seat and practice. For the boat that means fendering up and spending the afternoon more than once and really aquire some skills.

I've never heard of anybody really getting serious about helmsmanship. Everybody just goes boating and expects to become proficent w very little experience doing anything but running the boat in a straight line. It's a little like mating .... date a bit and marry the one that makes you feel warm and fuzzy. And you see how that works .. over 50% go through divorce school. Not putting myself high up as I've done that too. And w far more dating than most.

I need to do that w Chris. Making landings over and over till she actually can do it. At least in normal conditions ... whatever that is.

 

[RT Firefly]

Greetings,
Mr. mb. "It's a little like mating ...I need to do that w Chris. Making landings over and over till she actually can do it...."

Ahem, a little too much personal information there. Maybe you should move this to OTDE...

 

[twistedtree]

I wouldn't let the 45' be a deterrent at all. It will seem intimidating for a week, maybe two, then it will seem very normal. I personally think it's better to buy a bit bigger than you think you need, not smaller. Boats only seem smaller over time, never bigger.

 

[Drake]

We went through exactly the same thought process when we were considering our next boat. We had a 44' Defever 30 years ago, but then went many years boatless. When it came time to get back into boating, we looked at a Defever 50. We were pretty intimidated by the size and almost backed away. Now, two years later, we're completely comfortable handling it.

If you're really concerned, just put in bow and stern thrusters. That would make it a piece of cake. But you probably won't need them.

 

[GFC]

Matt, I went from a 20'er to a 34'er and went through much of the same fears that you are going through now. When I first stepped aboard the 34' boat it seemed huge and I thought I'd never be able to handle it. It took a couple of months until I felt pretty proficient, but then I felt pretty comfy docking it.


Then we chartered a 45' Bayliner and it seemed huge until I'd spent a few hours at the helm, then it was very comfortable.


Then I went to our current boat which is 61' LOA. Same thing. Fears at first but after several day trips and a couple of overnighters everything felt good. Now, docking our boat is a piece of cake. I've done it in wind, in current & it's just a matter of determining ahead of time what effect those are going to have on the boat, then plan your approach with that in mind.


I've backed our boat into our slip in 25kt crosswinds. It wasn't pretty and took two missed approaches before I got it on the third approach.


It's all a matter of practicing what you already know, but doing it in a boat that is bigger and responds differently to your commands.

 

[dhays]

Then I went to our current boat which is 61' LOA. Same thing. Fears at first but after several day trips and a couple of overnighters everything felt good. Now, docking our boat is a piece of cake. I've done it in wind, in current & it's just a matter of determining ahead of time what effect those are going to have on the boat, then plan your approach with that in mind.


I've backed our boat into our slip in 25kt crosswinds. It wasn't pretty and took two missed approaches before I got it on the third approach.

I am still in the painful learning stage. It took me three tries to do a simple side tie at a pump out dock my first week. I had a large audience. I should start to charge admission.

The NP43 is affected by wind entirely differently than all the sailboats that I have handled. This last weekend I was trying to leave a very tight, shallow, and completely packed small marina (Blake Island State Park) in about 20kts of wind. Unfortunately, it was coming from the wrong direction. I had made a plan, informed the crew, and then was a bit surprised, perplexed, and slightly alarmed that the boat didn't seem to get the memo.

The plan called for no use of the bow or stern thrusters. In practice, I ended up using both. Another learning experience.

 

[Mako]

Matt, quite a few of the charter companies up in Bellingham offer training by the day. You'll practice with a captain of theirs. Go out on a 50 or 60 footer, practice, practice, practice. Then when you start working with your own 45 footer it will seem easy.

Absolutely. Just one day of focused training may be enough to get over the hump and into the area of "comfort" with your new boat. Years ago I took a huge jump into a 65 footer. Tried practicing by myself and never figured it out. Finally a guy at the marina (ex-freighter captain) spent a half day with me. Wonderful - never looked back.

That being said, check your marina. If you have pilings/finger piers on both sides of your vessel then you can install tons of fenders and not worry about heavy cross winds. However, if you are sharing a slip then the nervousness factor goes up tremendously.

 

[THD]

I would agree with most there. Have no fear of the larger boat. Find what you are comfortable living or spending time on and you will learn to handle it just fine. WE are 58', 62' LOA. My wife, then in her late 50's had never handled any boat, much less one of any size. I was comfortable up to around 65-70'. It only took her 10 or 12 trips before she started feeling comfortable running the boat. It took her about a year to get the hang of getting into a slip. She still does not want to do it or really like doing it, but she can if need be. We have no problem whatsoever in handling the boat ourselves. Interestingly enough, my daughter who was 13 when we got it (and turns 17 today!), took to the boat like a duck to water. Within a year, she could handle it, dock it, change the oil, do routine maintenance checks, and pretty much understands how everything works! God help the guy that falls for her! He better have a boat and he better take good care of it!

 

[Baker]

The biggest question IMO is are you being absolutely honest with yourself about why you are not using the current boat???? Have a pow wow with your wife and make absolutely sure. I wouldn't want you to go through the rigors of getting another boat only to not use it also....

 

[dhays]

The biggest question IMO is are you being absolutely honest with yourself about why you are not using the current boat???? Have a pow wow with your wife and make absolutely sure. I wouldn't want you to go through the rigors of getting another boat only to not use it also....

Very good point.

 

[FF]

"Handling primarily. I don't want to end up with a boat that has all the amenities that we want, but that we still don't use because we are afraid to take it out."

House Windage would be the key ,

If she is 2 stories off the water , with an oxygen tent then stuck on top docking in a good breeze will be an adventure , single screw , twin screw or multiple thrusters.

If you prefer a roomaran it may only cost a few extra nights on the hook, not that a bad price to pay for a salon that echos.

 

[Besslb]

If you and your wife have made the list of wants/needs for the next boat, does either of these boats check more/less boxes than the other? Both will have windage issues, but you just have to learn to adapt to that. How does the space in the engine room compare, can you reach all the important pieces parts? What about cleaning and maintenance? Does one or the other make your crew more or less comfortable with docking/line handling/anchoring?

Finally, go see them both in person and then ask yourself the same questions again. 45 or 39 on paper isn't much difference....but in person might be. Go shopping.

 

[bayview]

boats shrink after a few months of ownership. Handling a 45' is easier than a 30'. More room to work, less wind effects, more stable etc. Chartering for a week is a good idea. Space for people to escape for a while seems important to some.

 

[mattkab]

The biggest question IMO is are you being absolutely honest with yourself about why you are not using the current boat???? Have a pow wow with your wife and make absolutely sure. I wouldn't want you to go through the rigors of getting another boat only to not use it also....

Great point.

The boat we have now we bought because it landed in our lap. We weren't boat shopping, but it was too good a deal to pass up; in fact it will be the first boat that we will actually sell for more than we bought it for.

While it's a great boat, and perfect for the right person, it would not have been the boat we would have chosen in the open market -- primarily because it only has one stateroom. Even our 28' Bayliner had two permanent berths.

We "use" the boat quite a bit... weekly during the summer months, and at least a couple times a month the rest of the year. But we don't sleep aboard or go on multi-day trips as often as we'd like, and that's primarily what we are looking to change.

 

[FF]

I know some folks think the Hell Hole should be sized to waltz in , but why?

Routine maint is done on a sked and a half hour of sitting changing the oil is hardly worth the volume consumed by by a standing walk around ER.

Simple systems are simple to fix , or Deep Six and stick in a better one.

Hardly a need for workbenches, drill press and a tool room extension.

Spare parts & 3 or 4 oil changes do not need to be comfortable when stowed , just accessible.

The less volume taken up by the engine space and noisemaker , the more room there is for people.

 

[mattkab]

If you and your wife have made the list of wants/needs for the next boat, does either of these boats check more/less boxes than the other?

Great question, and one that we debate. I love the idea of a pilothouse (having never had one), but my wife not so much -- she likes that whoever is at the helm is still a part of the main salon.

Both will have windage issues, but you just have to learn to adapt to that. How does the space in the engine room compare, can you reach all the important pieces parts?

Both seem to have adequate space for mechanical maintenance.

What about cleaning and maintenance? Does one or the other make your crew more or less comfortable with docking/line handling/anchoring?

The full walkaround decks on the 40' model make all of these easier. A major plus in that boat's favor IMO.

Finally, go see them both in person and then ask yourself the same questions again. 45 or 39 on paper isn't much difference....but in person might be. Go shopping.

We've seen the 45 in person. Our response was that it's big, especially when looking up at it from the dock. But once inside the living space sold us.

We've seen the 39 in person, but have never been aboard.