House Battery Bank for everything??

[Art]

I think one could buy a lot of batteries for $1400.

Yup!

See my post #19: Batteries Plus chain of stores. East Penn is the manufacturer. Well under $600 for all my battery needs.


Purchased them in 2008... still doing OK, not as good as new, but no where near finished yet.

I firmly believe in KISSSSSS!!

 

[MurrayM]

Having a mechanical spring starter might be a way to have one battery bank, yes?

 

[FlyWright]

Having a mechanical spring starter might be a way to have one battery bank, yes?

It'd be cheaper and simpler to carry a Honda eu2000i to pull start.

 

[sunchaser]

Tony

Thanks for sharing your interesting electric layout diagram!

I see that as an awful lot of complications... with areas that may portend breakdown.

Probably not too bad if the boat owner is an electrician wiz... which I am not!

KISS is my rule regarding all marine items; especially electricity.

Art

The diagram seems rather simple, what complications are troublesome to you?

 

[Baker]

Art

The diagram seems rather simple, what complications are troublesome to you?

Agreed. That is quite a simple system. It is basically Art's system plus a dedicated start battery for each engine.

 

[cool beans]

Interesting discussion.

On my sailboat, I eliminated the G27 house and G27 start batteries in favor of a "house bank" and emergency battery. House is 2 6v GC batteries and the back up is a small deep cycle with jumper cables. Never needed to jump in the years it has been set up. But, my house loads are tiny and the engine is an atomic 4

On my 3870 I have an 8D house, 8D main start battery, and a group 27 gen start battery. When the gen battery goes, I was thinking to just tie it into the main start battery? Any good reason not too?

thanks!

 

[sunchaser]

Your current setup works, is near ideal for backup and redundancy - IMHO no reason to change. Plus Group 27 batteries are pretty cheap, say $25/year from Walmart.

 

[Art]

Agreed. That is quite a simple system. It is basically Art's system plus a dedicated start battery for each engine.

OK... OK - I took another look at the schematic... not too difficult. At first quick, view it had looked more complicated to me than this time around. I'm not too well versed in electrical schematics so a bit of study is required to understand what they may be depicting.

 

[dhays]

OK... OK - I took another look at the schematic... not too difficult. At first quick, view it had looked more complicated to me than this time around. I'm not too well versed in electrical schematics so a bit of study is required to understand what they may be depicting.

It takes me a while to make sense of them as well.

 

[BandB]

Yup!

See my post #19: Batteries Plus chain of stores. East Penn is the manufacturer. Well under $600 for all my battery needs.


Purchased them in 2008... still doing OK, not as good as new, but no where near finished yet.

I firmly believe in KISSSSSS!!

You do realize that was nine years ago don't you? Are prices still the same?

 

[Art]

You do realize that was nine years ago don't you? Are prices still the same?

Pretty darn close. I was in local Batteries Plus store few weeks ago getting rechargeable batts for home appliances. Made note the prices on same batts as in our boat... cause even after nine years and ours are still doing OK, the need to replace will arrive. These stores also at times have coupon sales that further reduce price. I appreciate those stores' service, selection and their product quality.

 

[ranger58sb]

On my 3870 I have an 8D house, 8D main start battery, and a group 27 gen start battery. When the gen battery goes, I was thinking to just tie it into the main start battery? Any good reason not too?

Does the generator engine run an alternator, so it charges its own battery while running?

If so, segregation from engine batteries could be a good thing...

Diesels, right? A set of jumper cables could be either belt or suspenders...

-Chris

 

[Steve DAntonio]

I would keep one dedicated batt or bank for starting the mains and gen. One 4d would be fine. All three can share. Then house bank for everything else, including windlass. Just have an option to tie house and start together for starting redundancy. An ACR for charging house when mains are running. No need to get complicated.

I second this approach, it is both simple and redundant, it very works well.

If you have multiple HO alternators, both should be connected directly to the house bank. Mention was made about connecting "across the bank". That's very good advice. Setting up a string of paralleled batteries and connecting everything to the first or last battery in the string leads to uneven loading and aging of batteries. Actually, unless using a battery bus, there should be two 'crosses', one for loads and another mirrored cross for charging, allowing the bank to act as a buffer when running heavy loads while charging.

While not very sophisticated, ACR's are extremely reliable, I've installed countless units with very few failures. Alternatives include the Magnum Energy SBC, which I like for start battery charging because its voltage settings are adjustable, reducing the likelihood of over-charging a start battery, particularity an AGM. This is attractive in installations where house banks will be deeply discharged, and bulk charged for extended periods, subjecting start batteries to higher than ideal voltage, which they do not need because they rarely use more than a single amp-hour for each start. A parallel switch can always be closed if a heavier, faster charge is needed.

This two part article provides details on large battery bank design and installation The Large Battery Bank Equation Part I - PassageMaker

 

[Bay Pelican]

Does the generator engine run an alternator, so it charges its own battery while running?

If so, segregation from engine batteries could be a good thing...

Diesels, right? A set of jumper cables could be either belt or suspenders...

-Chris

The alternator on my Westerbeke 8kw will put out 20 amps after the initial charging begins. However if the battery is basically full it drops to almost nothing.

In my case the genset is started by the house bank so the genset's alternator also charges the house bank. When I first turn on the genset it's alternator is at high output. It drops to almost nothing once the 110v chargers kick in.

In either arrangement the genset alternator has little output, if the genset is started by a segregated battery that battery (on our cruising boat) is almost always full. If the genset is started by the house bank the 110 chargers' current output will reduce the output of the genset alternator.

 

[sdowney717]

I second this approach, it is both simple and redundant, it very works well.

If you have multiple HO alternators, both should be connected directly to the house bank. Mention was made about connecting "across the bank". That's very good advice. Setting up a string of paralleled batteries and connecting everything to the first or last battery in the string leads to uneven loading and aging of batteries. Actually, unless using a battery bus, there should be two 'crosses', one for loads and another mirrored cross for charging, allowing the bank to act as a buffer when running heavy loads while charging.
determined
While not very sophisticated, ACR's are extremely reliable, I've installed countless units with very few fadeterminedilures. Alternatives include the Magnum Energy SBC, which I like for start battery charging because its voltage settings are adjustable, reducing the likelihood of over-charging a start battery, particularity an AGM. This is attractive in installations where house banks will be deeply discharged, and bulk charged for extended periods, subjecting start batteries to higher than ideal voltage, which they do not need because they rarely use more than a single amp-hour for each start. A parallel switch can always be cldeterminedosed if a heavier, faster charge is needed.

This two part article provides details on large battery bank design and installation The Large Battery Bank Equation Part I - PassageMaker

I have similar setup to Ski and what you suggest.
One dedicated start battery for two engines.
Start battery is charged by port engine.

One battery for the generator.

2 House batteries for everything else and charged by starboard engine.

A combining relay that joins start and house banks. Will come on if starboard engine is running and the manual switch is set to on at the helm, but not a fully automatic ACR. Simply chose it since ACR cost was much higher.

Two 3 pole battery switches to select various combinations manually, which normally you don't have to move, unless a battery goes down.

 

[mramoo]

Thanks Steve, This information is great for people like myself who are just getting started in learning about house banks.

 

[dhays]

While not very sophisticated, ACR's are extremely reliable, I've installed countless units with very few failures. Alternatives include the Magnum Energy SBC, which I like for start battery charging because its voltage settings are adjustable, reducing the likelihood of over-charging a start battery, particularity an AGM. This is attractive in installations where house banks will be deeply discharged, and bulk charged for extended periods, subjecting start batteries to higher than ideal voltage, which they do not need because they rarely use more than a single amp-hour for each start. A parallel switch can always be closed if a heavier, faster charge is needed.

While it seems obvious, it is always good to note that while an ACR is good, you need to be careful about making sure that the charging profiles are the same for the two banks connected by it.

At some point the engine start battery failed on my boat and was replaced with an AGM. An ACR was used from the factory to combine the house and start sealed LA batteries. Not sure but it could be that the start was being overcharged compared to the house bank. The problem is that the AGM was then being charged with the profile for the house bank, still sealed LA.

At some point the PO installed three Duo-chargers, one charged the start battery, another the genset battery, and the last the thruster/windlass bank. I don't know if this was done before or after the start battery was replaced. For batteries of different types I think this is a better way to go as the duo-charger can be set for different charge profiles. It also is charging the batteries independently, i.e. Even if the house bank is taking a bulk or absorb charge, it won't do the same to the start battery.

The odd thing is that at some point the PO went back to the ACR, combining the start battery with the house bank. I switched it back this last fall after owning the boat for about 6 months.

 

[BandB]

Pretty darn close. I was in local Batteries Plus store few weeks ago getting rechargeable batts for home appliances. Made note the prices on same batts as in our boat... cause even after nine years and ours are still doing OK, the need to replace will arrive. These stores also at times have coupon sales that further reduce price. I appreciate those stores' service, selection and their product quality.

With the death of radio shack, I've given them an increased amount of business.

 

[Art]

With the death of radio shack, I've given them an increased amount of business.

I had personal limited to no purchase vendetta against Radio Shack. Started big time back in mid 70's. Had found same junk product and ill-assistance workers a couple of times since when needing to enter one of RS's stores due to other person's needs. that whole chain left me with bad taste in my mouth... if you know what I mean.

Whereas workers in Batteries Plus stores [only visited/purchased at three so far, and, go to local one often] are courteous, knowledgeable. BP products seem high quality with discounts often offered.

 

[BandB]

I had personal limited to no purchase vendetta against Radio Shack. Started big time back in mid 70's. Had found same junk product and ill-assistance workers a couple of times since when needing to enter one of RS's stores due to other person's needs. that whole chain left me with bad taste in my mouth... if you know what I mean.

Whereas workers in Batteries Plus stores [only visited/purchased at three so far, and, go to local one often] are courteous, knowledgeable. BP products seem high quality with discounts often offered.

We've had great results with Batteries Plus but we did also with the Radio Shack store we use to go to. We'd buy batteries in bulk when they ran sales, far cheaper than BP, which may just be another reason they're gone. Plus they were convenient and any electrical wiring or connections or batteries I suddenly needed, they had. I have found the employees at Batteries Plus I've been to most knowledgeable and helpful.

 

[FF]

I have found WLA start batts hard to overcharge as in a vehicle they run for years over 14V to keep up the air cond and many electric goodies in a modern car.

Power steering and even shocks can be power users.

The hassles come from mixing batts with different charge requirements.

Perhaps leaving the tiny stock engine alt in place and adding a big alt with a smart V reg is simplest for a mixed start/ large house batt set.

 

[stubones99]

I finally heard back from Maxwell about their msm modules. They retail for $900 to $1200 bucks and are not certified for marine applications. The guy said they didn't want the risk of boaters with that much power... he doesn't know cruisers, I guess.

 

[markpierce]

No, not ever for engine start-up. Engine(s) need separated battery(ies) so they aren't drained due to household duties. Running engines are capable of recharging batteries as well as get the boat going toward its next destination.

 

[dhays]

No, not ever for engine start-up. Engine(s) need separated battery(ies) so they aren't drained due to household duties. Running engines are capable of recharging batteries as well as get the boat going toward its next destination.

Definately a good way to go. OTOH, I never had a separate start battery on any of my sailboats, and never ran into trouble starting my engine. Also never had a genset, wind or solar power.

 

[FF]

Running an engine will recharge the batts , but the question is how long will it take?

With a Volt regulator from a car it takes a long tine!

The marine 3 or 4 stage units can cut the charge time in half , if that matters.