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Old 04-01-2014, 01:54 AM   #1
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Here come the hybrids

While it's not exactly a trawler, the Greenline 33 is finding surprising market acceptance for a boat that combines battery power for short distance and slow speed cruising with a conventional diesel power plant for longer runs.

Sailboat and trawler owners will be among those most ready to embrace the idea. (you will definitely want to be running *with* the current if using battery power). With judicious use of the solar panels on the roof, and an itinerary consisting of very shop "hops" between anchorages, it might be possible, as a stunt, to cruise a very long distance on electric power alone.

The first conventional trawler application can't be that far behind.

Some photos and details at Pacific Nor’West Boating - April 2014
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Old 04-01-2014, 02:39 AM   #2
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While it's not exactly a trawler, the Greenline 33 is finding surprising market acceptance for a boat that combines battery power for short distance and slow speed cruising with a conventional diesel power plant for longer runs.

Sailboat and trawler owners will be among those most ready to embrace the idea. (you will definitely want to be running *with* the current if using battery power). With judicious use of the solar panels on the roof, and an itinerary consisting of very shop "hops" between anchorages, it might be possible, as a stunt, to cruise a very long distance on electric power alone.

The first conventional trawler application can't be that far behind.

Some photos and details at Pacific Nor’West Boating - April 2014
I have a question about "surprising market acceptance." How many have actually been sold to end users? Then, have they been sold at a profit? I'm just not aware of any on the water and in seeing the prices I can't imagine that offers a profit for both manufacturer and dealer. Concept is one thing, but converting it to something practical and marketable is far more difficult.

The speed (or lack thereof) under electric just doesn't seem to me to be something of much use, although perhaps to sailors converting it might be. Guess I'm struggling to figure out who is the customer.
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Old 04-01-2014, 03:50 AM   #3
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If they weren't selling retail, there would need to be about 350 dealers, world wide to have absorbed all the inventory built to date. Hard to know, but if there are more than three on the west coast of the US, another three on the east coast, and two or so down in the Gulf that would be one heck of a lot of dealers. A lot of the sales so far have been in Europe, where the boat originated. If these people have 35 dealers, worldwide, (and they probably don't have anywhere close to that) it's hard to imagine that each dealer has an average of 10 unsold boats in inventory. The dealer in Seattle has one, so that would mean somebody else has 20. :-)

As far as "how many have been sold at a profit", that's tough to say but there's no compelling reason for a dealer to sell a boat at a loss. Once the factory sells the boat to the dealer, whatever profit is realized after that is up to the dealer and the buyer to work on when final price is negotiated.

I agree that lack of speed in the electric mode will be an issue for a lot of traditional trawler owners. We think 7-8 knots is pretty "normal", but half to two thirds of that speed is going to seem slow to most of us. It's a concept more likely to be embraced, at least initially, by cruising sailors.

The slow electric speed would also be very useful when trolling for salmon.

Customers will likely consist of a wide variety of folks with different motivations. To a degree, it will be a lot like having a "hybrid" car. Some of the buyers will simply enjoy making a statement about "being green". Some of the buyers will be sailors who aren't as concerned about speed but have reluctant to give up sailing because of engine noise, exhaust, and other internal combustion issues. Just like a sailboat, when the solar power (either electrical or wind) gives out you start the engine and motor on.

Anyway, the factory claims to have built and launched over 350 boats, and that's confirmed by the sequential HIN's. There haven't been any retailed in the Pacific Northwest, so far and apparently not wherever you're from, either. Nevertheless, it's a big world and some boats that sell well in America are rarely seen in Europe and the reverse is true as well.

No doubt, this is still in the "introductory phase", but for anybody these days to build almost 100 copies per year of anything in the 33-foot range is a remarkable achievement, all things considered. One thing upon which everybody is likely to agree, this is a unique concept.
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Old 04-01-2014, 05:15 AM   #4
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Even though the GreenLine touts itself as a hybrid, my understanding is that it's available with either conventional or hybrid propulsion. I heard that most, if not all, have been conventional propulsion, not hybrid. It might be the highest selling hybrid that hasn't sold a single hybrid.
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Old 04-01-2014, 09:23 AM   #5
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Cruising the world on solar Power is feasible.
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Old 04-01-2014, 09:24 AM   #6
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Be very careful with those numbers of builds. They love to mix all J and J designed boats with boats they've actually built as Seaway, their boatbuilding name. Looking on their own page of builds of J and J designs, they show 250 of their designs as a design team. But they only show Seaway building 2 boats in 2013, 1 power and 1 sail in 2012, 1 power in 2011, 1 power in 2010, 1 power and 2 sail in 2008, 3 boats in 2006 and sprinklings prior to that.

So I see no signs whatsoever of many sales of Greenline and Oceanclass yachts, something like 6 total builds. A couple of Shipman sailboats, and then years ago some Skagen motoryachts. What your 350 boat number is, I have no idea, but it's most decidedly not Greenline yachts. I do see 264 J and J Design Projects, but that includes boats designed for dozens of different manufacturers from Fairline to Prestige to Beneteau to quite a few for Bavaria Yachts.

So your sarcasm as in "If they weren't selling retail, there would need to be about 350 dealers, world wide to have absorbed all the inventory built to date. Hard to know, but if there are more than three on the west coast of the US, another three on the east coast, and two or so down in the Gulf that would be one heck of a lot of dealers. A lot of the sales so far have been in Europe, where the boat originated. If these people have 35 dealers, worldwide, (and they probably don't have anywhere close to that) it's hard to imagine that each dealer has an average of 10 unsold boats in inventory. The dealer in Seattle has one, so that would mean somebody else has 20. :-)" is greatly misdirected and ill informed.

Their own statement is "Since then (1983), 250 boat designs gave life to over 60.000 boats and yachts manufactured by 48 boat-builders from 19 countries." But to the best information available they have built a total of 6-8 Greenline boats in total.

Let's not embrace they hype but look at the real facts. They have not yet proven that the hybrid models have market relevance.
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Old 04-01-2014, 09:29 AM   #7
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If they weren't selling retail, there would need to be about 350 dealers, world wide to have absorbed all the inventory built to date. Hard to know, but if there are more than three on the west coast of the US, another three on the east coast, and two or so down in the Gulf that would be one heck of a lot of dealers. A lot of the sales so far have been in Europe, where the boat originated. If these people have 35 dealers, worldwide, (and they probably don't have anywhere close to that) it's hard to imagine that each dealer has an average of 10 unsold boats in inventory. The dealer in Seattle has one, so that would mean somebody else has 20. :-)

Cute but not based on facts, far from it.

As far as "how many have been sold at a profit", that's tough to say but there's no compelling reason for a dealer to sell a boat at a loss. Once the factory sells the boat to the dealer, whatever profit is realized after that is up to the dealer and the buyer to work on when final price is negotiated.

No indication at all that any boats have been sold at a profit vs. all introductions.

I agree that lack of speed in the electric mode will be an issue for a lot of traditional trawler owners. We think 7-8 knots is pretty "normal", but half to two thirds of that speed is going to seem slow to most of us. It's a concept more likely to be embraced, at least initially, by cruising sailors.

The slow electric speed would also be very useful when trolling for salmon.

Customers will likely consist of a wide variety of folks with different motivations. To a degree, it will be a lot like having a "hybrid" car. Some of the buyers will simply enjoy making a statement about "being green". Some of the buyers will be sailors who aren't as concerned about speed but have reluctant to give up sailing because of engine noise, exhaust, and other internal combustion issues. Just like a sailboat, when the solar power (either electrical or wind) gives out you start the engine and motor on.

Anyway, the factory claims to have built and launched over 350 boats, and that's confirmed by the sequential HIN's. There haven't been any retailed in the Pacific Northwest, so far and apparently not wherever you're from, either. Nevertheless, it's a big world and some boats that sell well in America are rarely seen in Europe and the reverse is true as well.

I don't know where they claim that. Segway sure doesn't. They claim to have designed 264 boats but we're talking builds by them and specifically Greenline. 6-8 is more like the number.

No doubt, this is still in the "introductory phase", but for anybody these days to build almost 100 copies per year of anything in the 33-foot range is a remarkable achievement, all things considered. One thing upon which everybody is likely to agree, this is a unique concept. That is so true and Greenline is more in the 2 boats per year range, not 100.
Your enthusiasm is impressive. Your information though is terribly incorrect.
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Old 04-01-2014, 10:13 AM   #8
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But the hins are sequential!

I've got one of a kind bridge I'll sell you too.
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Old 04-01-2014, 10:59 AM   #9
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Just IMHO ...

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Your enthusiasm is impressive. Your information though is terribly incorrect.
As anybody here who is not an insider, I do not know the facts (the real numbers) but ... the boat is beautifyll inside and out. The finish and rigging is way above what you see on N. American made boats, and tidier and more contemporary than on the boats made in Asia. The concept is sound, but yet to be proven in a boat ... although I would compare this boat with Tesla design and manufacturing qualities rather than Ford Focus Electric ... and draw my conclusions from that.

The good indicator of acceptance could be a number of boats on the market ... some 19 used and 23 new ones listed today on YachtWorld. That is much better than some of the established and/or recently defunct N. American brands, and much better than some competing startup brands.
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Old 04-01-2014, 11:25 AM   #10
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As anybody here who is not an insider, I do not know the facts (the real numbers) but ... the boat is beautifyll inside and out. The finish and rigging is way above what you see on N. American made boats, and tidier and more contemporary than on the boats made in Asia. The concept is sound, but yet to be proven in a boat ... although I would compare this boat with Tesla design and manufacturing qualities rather than Ford Focus Electric ... and draw my conclusions from that.

The good indicator of acceptance could be a number of boats on the market ... some 19 used and 23 new ones listed today on YachtWorld. That is much better than some of the established and/or recently defunct N. American brands, and much better than some competing startup brands.
I will admit to some confusion over the 19 showing on the used market as it's more than they showed building on their web site. I was shocked when you pointed that number out. However, it's not 19 unique boats. Some I have seen are duplicates, the same boat listed by several brokers. I haven't been through them all. As to the new ones, that is not an indication 23 have been built. Often boats to be ordered are listed. I will continue to look at the list but until something otherwise, I'll accept the numbers shown on Seaway's website itself.

And you're clearly right that to have any is better than defunct brands.

Your Tesla comparison holds some merit. Just Tesla ahead of them in development.

And not at all questioning it's beauty. As to profit, I see the price of a new 40' at $330,000 and I don't see how you make money at that price. Maybe their manufacturing is that inexpensive or advanced.

I would also be concerned that so many very recent builds are for sale used. I can only guess they were used as demos, at least some of them.

Don't get me wrong. I want them to succeed. I was Tesla to succeed. I was ready to buy their roadster but then it was dropped. But there is still a struggle developing commercial viability for these new technologies.
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Old 04-01-2014, 11:57 AM   #11
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Your enthusiasm is impressive. Your information though is terribly incorrect.
The factory literature for the Greenline 33, written about a year ago, specifically cites 300 boats built and sold.

So, who to find credible? The guys building boats who claim to know how many they have built, or a bunch of guys who (simply because they haven't heard of the boat personally) insist they could only have built one or two boats so far.
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Old 04-01-2014, 11:58 AM   #12
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But the hins are sequential!

I've got one of a kind bridge I'll sell you too.

Charming.
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Old 04-01-2014, 12:01 PM   #13
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Your enthusiasm is impressive. Your information though is terribly incorrect.
If the information is incorrect, then Greenline is deliberately, specifically, and publicly lying about their build numbers. That's a pretty serious charge to make without anything other than a guess to back it up.
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Old 04-01-2014, 12:11 PM   #14
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I don't see hybrid tech on boats passing the cost/benefit test. On cars, regenerative braking and keeping the engine in a good spot on the bsfc map makes it viable. Nothing similar on a boat. There is a large amount of power needed to move a boat at anything beyond walking speed, and nothing electric can match the energy density in a big tank of diesel. Solar collectors still have very low output per sqft so can provide just a tiny fraction of energy required to move a boat. Or requires an absurd amount of surface area (see above photo).

If the goal is to minimize diesel consumption to extremely low levels, that is what sailboats do very well. In fact, if diesel gets to say $10/gal, that's probably the way I'll go.

Managing house electrical, refrigeration and hvac does have room for some creative engineering, but existing systems that most of us use are pretty efficient already.

Fun tech to play with, but I don't see its viability.
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Old 04-01-2014, 12:40 PM   #15
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The factory literature for the Greenline 33, written about a year ago, specifically cites 300 boats built and sold.

So, who to find credible? The guys building boats who claim to know how many they have built, or a bunch of guys who (simply because they haven't heard of the boat personally) insist they could only have built one or two boats so far.
They are referring to the boats they've designed. It's the same information on their website which is where I've gotten my information. They haven't built and sold 300 Greenline's. They have designed 300 boats (actually their site says 260+) that have been built and sold. Now as to the factory itself, it may also have built many as it's built other brands.

They have a list of boats on their website. Here is their list of boats they've designed.

J&J Design - Greenline

Every where I've seen the type numbers you're referring to it has been total, not Greenline.

It's a bit like if Orin Edson, the owner of Westport, said he'd built 300,000 boats. Well, he has built more than that. But that was as founder of Bayliner.

I know your intent isn't to mislead, but do feel you've misinterpreted some of their information. I will assure you without question there have not been 300 Greenline's built. Seaways influence in the market is huge. The Jakopin's have been leaders. If solar and wind energy are to be made viable in the market, these would be the people most likely to achieve that. Their designs have led to over 60,000 boats built. They've worked with 48 builders.

Seaway is impressive. In many ways the Greenline boat is. However, it's only made a small dent in the marketplace to this point. The future could be huge. We just don't know.
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Old 04-01-2014, 12:41 PM   #16
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If the information is incorrect, then Greenline is deliberately, specifically, and publicly lying about their build numbers. That's a pretty serious charge to make without anything other than a guess to back it up.
That's not the charge at all. The interpretation of the numbers is what I believe to be the issue.
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Old 04-01-2014, 12:55 PM   #17
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...

1. On cars, regenerative braking and keeping the engine in a good spot on the bsfc map makes it viable. Nothing similar on a boat.
...

2. Fun tech to play with, but I don't see its viability.

1. It's coming ... Regenerative Electric Propulsion ...
https://www.google.com/search?q=prop...nerative+power

2. Not yet ... but I bet this is what Mr Ford and early internal combustion engine adopters heard from horse drawn carriage manufacturers ...

Time will tell ...
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Old 04-01-2014, 02:02 PM   #18
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I don't see hybrid tech on boats passing the cost/benefit test. On cars, regenerative braking and keeping the engine in a good spot on the bsfc map makes it viable. Nothing similar on a boat. There is a large amount of power needed to move a boat at anything beyond walking speed, and nothing electric can match the energy density in a big tank of diesel. Solar collectors still have very low output per sqft so can provide just a tiny fraction of energy required to move a boat. Or requires an absurd amount of surface area (see above photo).

If the goal is to minimize diesel consumption to extremely low levels, that is what sailboats do very well. In fact, if diesel gets to say $10/gal, that's probably the way I'll go.

Managing house electrical, refrigeration and hvac does have room for some creative engineering, but existing systems that most of us use are pretty
efficient already.

Fun tech to play with, but I don't see its viability.
As you note, there are some major differences between automotive hybrids and the Greenline concept. Essentially the Greenline is a single boat with two propulsion systems- diesel or battery. The skipper selects which system he or she wants to use, assuming there's enough juice in the battery bank and a slow speed will be satisfactory. The two propulsion systems don't interact in the same way that an automotive hybrid system works.

When the engine runs, the electric drive motor switches to a generator turned by the main shaft, and that will recharge the battery banks. The batteries also recharge through solar panels, spread out on the cabin top.

I would agree that the concept isn't about to replace traditional propulsion for the vast majority of us, [I'm not personally rushing out to buy one] but it's an interesting innovation.
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Old 04-01-2014, 02:05 PM   #19
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That's not the charge at all. The interpretation of the numbers is what I believe to be the issue.
It's pretty tough to misinterpret a manufacturer's statement that over 300 Greenline 33's have been launched.

I checked with the local dealer to verify that number, as it did seem on the high side. He called the factory, and then informed my that the number is now up to 350.
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Old 04-01-2014, 02:12 PM   #20
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It's pretty tough to misinterpret a manufacturer's statement that over 300 Greenline 33's have been launched.

I checked with the local dealer to verify that number, as it did seem on the high side. He called the factory, and then informed my that the number is now up to 350.
If that's the case then I don't know why their website doesn't show it. I find that number amazing. I ask this. Have any of you ever seen one other than at a show? I just wonder where they're going. I'm thinking a tremendous number must be sold in Croatia.
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