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Old 04-08-2014, 01:17 AM   #41
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I spent almost 2 years working a hybrid design, approx. 56'. I spent a lot of time with Bill Crealock on design and engineering, a lot of time with his design engineer and about two weeks in Atlanta at Siemens specing (?) out systems. Siemens has worked on electric boats since about 1890, they still haven't found a reason to build one. At the end of the day, we could find no practical benefit to a hybrid system. It still takes the same HP (or Kw), to move a given mass through the water, no matter the source of the energy consumed. Unlike Greenline, we were looking at a system where the diesel was used only to drive a generator. Propulsion was always electric, i.e. the diesel produced electricity to drive the shafts. There was no "switching" between the two. There were no significant fuel savings, even the Siemens engineers admitted that 3-5% fuel savings would be the best obtainable. Running on batteries was just a ridiculous concept as shown by the Greenline, 10 miles at 6-5 knots? We calculated about the same and that was with a massive, and I mean massive, battery bank. There was some ability to lessen the complexity. A 56' trawer will twins will also usually have two generators as well, ay a 20kw and an 8 kw. We came up with a system that only had two diesels, one "propulsion" generator driving two electric motored and one generator driving everything else electric, but not directly. The generator only charged batteries and the entire house system was run off the batteries through inverters.

Oddly enough, the biggest benefit we found was that a hybrid system, at least on a 56", could take up about 70-75% of the space of a traditional direct drive, thus making a lot of midships, full beam space available for living area. The engines can be placed anywhere in the ER, both enclosed in full sound shields. The electric engines on each shaft were only abour 26" x 18"x12". So the area normally taken up by the diesel in front of the shaft was no longer ER.

In our design, the additional cost, over a traditional system, was between $150K and 200K. That cost just could not be justified.
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Old 04-08-2014, 01:51 AM   #42
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I spent almost 2 years working a hybrid design, approx. 56'. I spent a lot of time with Bill Crealock on design and engineering, a lot of time with his design engineer and about two weeks in Atlanta at Siemens specing (?) out systems. Siemens has worked on electric boats since about 1890, they still haven't found a reason to build one. At the end of the day, we could find no practical benefit to a hybrid system. It still takes the same HP (or Kw), to move a given mass through the water, no matter the source of the energy consumed. Unlike Greenline, we were looking at a system where the diesel was used only to drive a generator. Propulsion was always electric, i.e. the diesel produced electricity to drive the shafts. There was no "switching" between the two. There were no significant fuel savings, even the Siemens engineers admitted that 3-5% fuel savings would be the best obtainable. Running on batteries was just a ridiculous concept as shown by the Greenline, 10 miles at 6-5 knots? We calculated about the same and that was with a massive, and I mean massive, battery bank. There was some ability to lessen the complexity. A 56' trawer will twins will also usually have two generators as well, ay a 20kw and an 8 kw. We came up with a system that only had two diesels, one "propulsion" generator driving two electric motored and one generator driving everything else electric, but not directly. The generator only charged batteries and the entire house system was run off the batteries through inverters.

Oddly enough, the biggest benefit we found was that a hybrid system, at least on a 56", could take up about 70-75% of the space of a traditional direct drive, thus making a lot of midships, full beam space available for living area. The engines can be placed anywhere in the ER, both enclosed in full sound shields. The electric engines on each shaft were only abour 26" x 18"x12". So the area normally taken up by the diesel in front of the shaft was no longer ER.

In our design, the additional cost, over a traditional system, was between $150K and 200K. That cost just could not be justified.
Thank You THD, Thank You! For posting this well developed and accurate accounting regarding electric powered pleasure craft.

From your tests and now in understandable format you prove what I've been saying due to my associate's and my deeply active research in trying our absolute best to find economic and efficiency reasons for electrical powered pleasure cruiser boats (see copy in my posts #26 and #40). I ask you for permission to quote your post in its entirety. Please advise.

Again, THANKS! - Art
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Old 04-08-2014, 06:12 AM   #43
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Art-FWIW, feel free. There are more than a few others who have reached the same conclusion.

One additional note, when the subject of hybrids comes up, someone always mentions diesel locomotives and big ships using a diesel-electric system (and they have for many years). There is a single reason a diesel-electric system is efficient in those applications-Torque. It takes massive amounts of torque to get a train or a ship moving. The torque curve on an electric motor is absolutely flat-it puts out the same torque at 2 RPM as at 2,000 RPM. That is what is needed to get such a huge mass moving.
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Old 04-08-2014, 08:03 AM   #44
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Oddly enough, the biggest benefit we found was that a hybrid system, at least on a 56", could take up about 70-75% of the space of a traditional direct drive, thus making a lot of midships, full beam space available for living area. The engines can be placed anywhere in the ER, both enclosed in full sound shields. The electric engines on each shaft were only abour 26" x 18"x12". So the area normally taken up by the diesel in front of the shaft was no longer ER.

In our design, the additional cost, over a traditional system, was between $150K and 200K. That cost just could not be justified.

I think I could be all over that kind of outcome: more living space and still potentially better/easier access to systems for routine maintenance and service? Two real staterooms in a 42' boat, instead of the "1-" we have now? And one of those becoming full beam? Yee haw!

And probably being able to use the "genset" diesel to power the boat as a get-home?

What's not to like?

In a semi-production line of boats with hulls already designed for pods, and using electric pods... I wonder if costs could come down to be no more than traditional designs, or even a bit less, given the (probably?) smaller "drive" diesel?

-Chris
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Old 04-08-2014, 09:00 AM   #45
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Well, it looks like the US Navy has taken a different approach. They are now able to convert seawater to fuel! (yippee). Apparently the system pulls hydrogen and carbon from the seawater and viola. Still 10 or 12 years out before the system can make enough fuel for a ship to stay out without ever needing a port or tanker for refueling. Game changer for logistics and the fuel will run existing power plants (except for the nuke fleet of course).
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Old 04-08-2014, 10:34 AM   #46
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They are now able to convert seawater to fuel! (yippee).

Sounds like Popular Science and the flying cars of 1955.

Or the Browns Gas hoax that never seems to die.
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Old 04-08-2014, 11:55 AM   #47
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Hydrogen production from water has been possible for several decades; although it is currently much more cost efficient to produce it from hydrocarbons.

There are several different ways to produce it from water.

Simply heat water to 2500 degrees C (4532 F) and it spontaneously dissociates, separating hydrogen from oxygen. Building the pipework and control systems to handle the high temperature is the costly part.

The US military has also been making hydrogen for balloons since WW1 using ferrosilicon, hydrogen peroxide and water.

Like everything else, while we have cheap fossil fuels, other technology cannot compete.
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Old 04-08-2014, 12:12 PM   #48
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Well, what the Naval Research Lab announced was the conversion of seawater to hydrogen/co2 (I think) and then running the gas thru a cat converter of some kind to bring it to liquid fuel. Estimate 3-6 dollars a gallon for conversion at this time. Now to make the process more efficient to produce 'industrial' amounts. Very interesting.
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Old 04-08-2014, 01:12 PM   #49
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I think they were looking to make liquid fuel for aircraft and for carrier support ships- all liquid fuel gas turbines. The energy source would be the carrier nuclear reactors, which can make gobs of electricity. Not exactly free electricity, considering they are using expensive high enrichment fuel.

But it helps in logistics, as arranging fuel for that flotilla is a big PITA. For all except the carrier.

Not sure what exact reactions they use, but I bet a big part is electrolysis, which is not particularly efficient in the thermodynamic sense.
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Old 04-08-2014, 05:05 PM   #50
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Some discussion of the Greenline here....

Greeline Hydrid
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Old 04-09-2014, 06:20 AM   #51
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>Like everything else, while we have cheap fossil fuels, other technology cannot compete.<

That will give the no efficient Green stuff about 5 centuries to catch upon price.
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Old 04-09-2014, 07:44 AM   #52
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>Like everything else, while we have cheap fossil fuels, other technology cannot compete.<

That will give the no efficient Green stuff about 5 centuries to catch upon price.
IMHO

Harnessing the power of "Fusion" is the best chance civilization has to economically electrically power the entire world. Many pitfalls exist as international scientists work toward cleanly and safely enabling Fusion-Heat to generate electric power.

It appears that until that time of history we are globally saddled with several sorts of dirty burning fossil fuels and dangerous nuclear energy as the most economical, readily available, and highly productive power sources. Of course clean(er) power sources such as ethanol, solar, geothermal, wind, waterfalls, dams, wave/tidal/current actions and the like are on the periphery; but not at all in ample availability or efficiency to power the entire world.

If Fusion Power can be developed into a safe, clean means to generate electricity then the stance of available electric power for humans on this planet will undergo a metamorphous of improvement and accessibility second to none.

That still leaves us with the problem of developing (inventing/creating) electric power units for boats that have acceptable weight ratios, duration of energy charge, ample travel distance, and quickness of recharge (while away from dock cruising or at stand still). Unless and until there suddenly becomes miraculous battery tech improvements alongside miraculous “green” recharging improvements... I see fossil fuel burning motors continuing to rule the pleasure boat industry for a long, long time.

Fusion power - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

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Old 04-09-2014, 08:22 AM   #53
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This kind of product is bought because it's vogue not more economical. I had a friend in AK that had a Prius and when I suggested it may not be cost effective he said something that equated to "someone's got to lead the way until they do become cost effective". Making a statement. Walt here on TF had one but he didn't keep it very long. Most of the people that have newish PU trucks or SUVs need then not at all but don't want to be seen with "my father's Oldsmobile".

That said we thought we didn't need radial tires but now can you imagine the mess the freeways would be if millions of cars were going down the freeways at 80mph on Bias ply tires? Fuel Injection? Too complicated, complex and expensive.

The people that actually HAVE things like hybrid boats are leading the way and suffering the limitations of the products but my friend in AK is probably right in that if somebody dosn't start the ball rolling man my not get ahead. The electric car at this time in history burns no gasoline but few mention how much coal it burns or what that costs to the electric car owner or the environment. Ethanol isn't cost effective either to the extent that it's stupid but somewhere somebody is saying "it's action in the right direction" and "no pain no gain". However at some point in time powerboats will almost certainly be electric. But for me now a FD boat w diesel power is the answer.
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Old 04-09-2014, 10:39 AM   #54
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Boy!! Not a very appealing bow. . . . reminds me of something from our Art Deco period.
that's funny...

it reminds me of the boats I used to build as a kid from the 1/2 gallon cardboard milk boxes!

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Old 04-09-2014, 12:11 PM   #55
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Making a statement. Walt here on TF had one but he didn't keep it very long.
Partly true. Walt had an attack of "Patriotism" in Jan 2013 and bought a Ford Focus for running around town. The electronics (Microsoft) were such a disaster that he traded it in after 6 months and went back to leasing his 3rd Prius.

Last time I saw him, he drove me around San Diego in his new Prius, looking the part the Southern Californian liberal clogging up the fast lane at speeds just below the speed limit.
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Old 04-09-2014, 12:32 PM   #56
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HA HA HA FlyWright,
He told us in a post some time ago he drove his old Prius 80MPH. And I see many of them going 75 (at least) on the freeway here in WA. If they were out for economy the'd be driving 55 RIGHT?

Unlike Walt I don't have attacks of patriotism .. at least in my shopping. Bought a new Jetta built in Mexico but I'll not be trading it in soon. It's turbo-gas and isn't far behind the VW diesels for fuel millage. It's powered by a new engine w/o a steel or iron exhaust manifold. The exhaust man is incorporated inside the aluminum cyl head. Has lots of power and averages over 30mpg. Some turbo-lag though. Wife's 2000 Golf gas turbo needs premium fuel but has far less turbo lag. I love my Jetta.
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Old 04-09-2014, 03:27 PM   #57
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...Prius...clogging up the fast lane at speeds just below the speed limit.
OMG they do that here in the Northeast, too!

It's getting so I can recognize a Prius at about a quarter-mile out and change lanes before I get caught among all the cars swerving and braking to avoid it.

I must say, lately I've seen one or two of them going at or above the speed limit, so there's hope.
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Old 04-09-2014, 04:12 PM   #58
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Partly trhue. Walt had an attack of "Patriotism" in Jan 2013 and bought a Ford Focus for running around town. The electronics (Microsoft) were such a disaster that he traded it in after 6 months and went back to leasing his 3rd Prius.

Last time I saw him, he drove me around San Diego in his new Prius, looking the part the Southern Californian liberal clogging up the fast lane at speeds just below the speed limit.
We haven't heard much from Walt lately here on TF. The last I heard he was on hiatus working for Greenpeace ramming Japanese whaling ships with his IG. He had better watch that. They may not let him have another Pius. . . oops that's Prius.
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Old 04-09-2014, 04:28 PM   #59
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When you ask a Prius driver how fast he drives, he will say, "43 miles per gallon". I don't think they have speed-o-meters.
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Old 04-09-2014, 04:29 PM   #60
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We haven't heard much from Walt lately here on TF. The last I heard he was on hiatus working for Greenpeace ramming Japanese whaling ships with his IG. He had better watch that. They may not let him have another Pius. . . oops that's Prius.
Yup! You should see him now in his full beard and Birkenstocks! Probably spending too much time at the oxygen and hookah bars to be able to post here.
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