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Old 04-01-2014, 02:21 PM   #21
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If that's the case then I don't know why their website doesn't show it. I find that number amazing. I ask this. Have any of you ever seen one other than at a show? I just wonder where they're going. I'm thinking a tremendous number must be sold in Croatia.
So here's a link to a digital copy of the page in their brochure where they very specifically claim to have delivered "over 300 boats to 28 countries in the first 3 years" (beginning in 2010)

Greenline brand - Greenline


Can I swear on a stack of Bibles that this number is accurate? Of course not. I haven't stood at the factory door to count the number of boats emerging, and neither has anybody else involved in this discussion on this forum. But, if we're going to insist that it is *not* accurate then it would be best to have something other than a "hunch" with which to substantiate the charge.

No disrespect for anybody's opinion, but the builder likely knows how many boats have been launched to date. If the builder's very specific claim is not accurate, then the builder has very specifically lied. I'm not inclined to race to that conclusion. Not inclined at all.
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Old 04-01-2014, 02:55 PM   #22
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So here's a link to a digital copy of the page in their brochure where they very specifically claim to have delivered "over 300 boats to 28 countries in the first 3 years" (beginning in 2010)

Greenline brand - Greenline


Can I swear on a stack of Bibles that this number is accurate? Of course not. I haven't stood at the factory door to count the number of boats emerging, and neither has anybody else involved in this discussion on this forum. But, if we're going to insist that it is *not* accurate then it would be best to have something other than a "hunch" with which to substantiate the charge.

No disrespect for anybody's opinion, but the builder likely knows how many boats have been launched to date. If the builder's very specific claim is not accurate, then the builder has very specifically lied. I'm not inclined to race to that conclusion. Not inclined at all.
No, your facts hold up. I don't think they've lied. I do wonder why their website doesn't reflect it. It's an incredible and very impressive number. I guess it shows that 300+ spread throughout the world means still we're very likely not to have run across one. I was looking at information contradictory to yours and I am convinced now that yours is correct. Mine wasn't a hunch, but the listing on their site, which is obviously incomplete, perhaps just lists model variations and changes.

Does the 300+ surprise you? I'm still wondering who and why because it's got to be a very different market than any I'm familiar with. But there are some who do want to be the first of a new wave of technology.
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Old 04-01-2014, 03:15 PM   #23
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No, your facts hold up. I don't think they've lied. I do wonder why their website doesn't reflect it. It's an incredible and very impressive number. I guess it shows that 300+ spread throughout the world means still we're very likely not to have run across one. I was looking at information contradictory to yours and I am convinced now that yours is correct. Mine wasn't a hunch, but the listing on their site, which is obviously incomplete, perhaps just lists model variations and changes.

Does the 300+ surprise you? I'm still wondering who and why because it's got to be a very different market than any I'm familiar with. But there are some who do want to be the first of a new wave of technology.
I was surprised at the number as well. But I know that even though the overall manufacturing climate for new boats is far from robust, certain niche markets are doing just fine. The Ranger Tugs and Cutwater boats, built here in Puget Sound country, are being snapped up at an astonishing rate. I heard rumors that they took orders for over 60 boats in 10 days at the 2013 Seattle show, (again, rumors). I haven't heard what they did in 2014, but based on the activity in their corner of the show I assume they did very well again.

I suspect that most of the Greenline sales so far have been in Europe, with NZ, AUS, CA, and US distribution just now picking up.

This isn't going to replace traditional propulsion for the vast majority of us, but it is a new twist available in the market and it's going to resonate with a very specific group of consumers. Just because you or I probably aren't going to buy one doesn't mean that the product doesn't have some appeal.

Hybrid technology aside, these are decent little boats. They are built on the light side, so folks who are convinced that only enormous mass can ensure structural integrity won't be all that impressed.The pluses are a very open and airy feel in the main cabin, as well as innovations like a tailgate transom and a fold up aft bulkhead. It isn't difficult to imagine this boat finding some market acceptance among people who don't really care about electric drive, and indeed it is available with traditional propulsion as well.
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Old 04-01-2014, 03:16 PM   #24
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Out of all 19 used "greenline" boats listed on YachtWorld ... 1 is unaccounted for, 3 are located in US, and 15 are located in Europe. This 1:5 ratio might explain why we do not see/know more about this brand in the USA.
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Old 04-01-2014, 03:42 PM   #25
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The Greenlines are also popular outside of the US. I've seen several on Sydney harbour, and there usually a couple for sale on the Australian used market.

Another brand which seems to be doing well is Solar Sailor, which has been building hybrid boats for almost 15 years. The company is headed up by an ex Australian prime minister. Solar Sailor is building for the commercial market, with a range of hybrid passenger ferries and unmanned surveillance boats. One of their ferries is is doing tours to Alcatraz in San Francisco. I don't know what their total production numbers are, but SS seem to be going ok.

It's coming, but I don't expect a huge market share for this technology until the price of diesel doubles. (this may not be too far away)
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Old 04-01-2014, 03:45 PM   #26
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It's pretty simple folks... at any price; it’s simply not the time for efficient larger electric boats – yet!

1. Availability of battery tech that can be recharged fast enough and can contain ample power per pound just simply has not arrived - yet. Tesla Motors is the current leading force for developments in batteries. Other organizations are also working ferociously toward battery improvements. We shall see...

2. Another BIG factor regarding the moment to moment high-energy-need to move electric power boats of even moderate size through the water is how to produce ample charging power while out on a cruise (away from docks and not using hydrocarbon engine as a gen set) to accommodate the batteries charging requirements. This recharge input factor needs to be accomplished inexpensively enough and fast enough to keep a power boat moving quickly enough and far enough to actually get some place. There is only X solar energy and X wind energy and X water flow energy available while out on the water. Those energy sources are currently all that is “green” we have to work with for recharging battery banks. When you take the combined X energy input factors of those three “green” sources (each applicably discounted due to reasons of energy collection deferment) and divide that energy number by the electric energy needed to move a sizable, weighted boat hull through the water at moderate speed and with ample miles accomplished... well, the math does not look good! But, we shall see...

There are ample electric motors and drive lines with highly efficient capabilities for power boats. Taint the motor or drive line that faces hurdles. Tiz the batts’ capabilities and the “green” chargers limited energy availabilities that currently face BIG hurdles.

IMHO, untill #’s 1 & 2 get extreme levels of technical improvements, good sized truly efficient hybrid power boats are still out of arm’s reach. Worth Pursuing... But... We Shall See!

PS: For cars I think improvements in # 1 will come along fairly quickly, although batt improvements are not the end-all for electric-power marine needs this can surely be folded over into boats and will help. # 2 for boats is the real stickler.
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Old 04-01-2014, 04:02 PM   #27
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The Greenlines are also popular outside of the US. I've seen several on Sydney harbour, and there usually a couple for sale on the Australian used market.

Another brand which seems to be doing well is Solar Sailor, which has been building hybrid boats for almost 15 years. The company is headed up by an ex Australian prime minister. Solar Sailor is building for the commercial market, with a range of hybrid passenger ferries and unmanned surveillance boats. One of their ferries is is doing tours to Alcatraz in San Francisco. I don't know what their total production numbers are, but SS seem to be going ok.

It's coming, but I don't expect a huge market share for this technology until the price of diesel doubles. (this may not be too far away)
We love the concept of Solar Sailor. Something like the 30 Pax Tourism gets us excited except we'd prefer something smaller. The last thing we need is another boat, but one day I suspect we'll have a solar sailor. It's sailing without so much work with the way those sails work, plus the solar. What a great day boat it would make.
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Old 04-01-2014, 04:23 PM   #28
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It's pretty simple folks... at any price; it’s simply not the time for efficient larger electric boats – yet!

1. Availability of battery tech that can be recharged fast enough and can contain ample power per pound just simply has not arrived - yet. Tesla Motors is the current leading force for developments in batteries. Other organizations are also working ferociously toward battery improvements. We shall see...

2. Another BIG factor regarding the moment to moment high-energy-need to move electric power boats of even moderate size through the water is how to produce ample charging power while out on a cruise (away from docks and not using hydrocarbon engine as a gen set) to accommodate the batteries charging requirements. This recharge input factor needs to be accomplished inexpensively enough and fast enough to keep a power boat moving quickly enough and far enough to actually get some place. There is only X solar energy and X wind energy and X water flow energy available while out on the water. Those energy sources are currently all that is “green” we have to work with for recharging battery banks. When you take the combined X energy input factors of those three “green” sources (each applicably discounted due to reasons of energy collection deferment) and divide that energy number by the electric energy needed to move a sizable, weighted boat hull through the water at moderate speed and with ample miles accomplished... well, the math does not look good! But, we shall see...

There are ample electric motors and drive lines with highly efficient capabilities for power boats. Taint the motor or drive line that faces hurdles. Tiz the batts’ capabilities and the “green” chargers limited energy availabilities that currently face BIG hurdles.

IMHO, untill #’s 1 & 2 get extreme levels of technical improvements, good sized truly efficient hybrid power boats are still out of arm’s reach. Worth Pursuing... But... We Shall See!

PS: For cars I think improvements in # 1 will come along fairly quickly, although batt improvements are not the end-all for electric-power marine needs this can surely be folded over into boats and will help. # 2 for boats is the real stickler.
Maybe some genius will come up with a concept to turn the sea itself into a battery. Sounds far fetched, but what we really need for a battery are two diverse metals in a common electrolyte. I personally can't imagine how to get there from here, but I can almost visualize 100 years or so from now when we might not need to have a battery aboard a boat for any purpose...just drop the appropriate cable into the sea. Stranger things have been discovered.
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Old 04-01-2014, 04:40 PM   #29
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this concept is pretty amusing to me. If this concept takes off, its time for someone to come out with a new motorsailor. The only US market for this boat is rich treehuggers that have 10,000 square foot homes and drive prius's. Outside the us the market is anywhere diesel is over 10 bucks a gallon. I recently saw the article in Cruising World or Passage-maker, I cant remember, but I do remember seeing that the layout was rather appealing for a couple- much like the rangers and cutwaters are appealing to new buyers.
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Old 04-01-2014, 05:34 PM   #30
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OMG - bligh - Please... Your avitar hurts to look at!

Put a pict of your new "baby-boat" there... for all da world ta see!
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Old 04-01-2014, 06:44 PM   #31
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Maybe some genius will come up with a concept to turn the sea itself into a battery. Sounds far fetched, but what we really need for a battery are two diverse metals in a common electrolyte.
To the contrary. . . It was invented years ago!!!
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Old 04-01-2014, 08:03 PM   #32
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I think some of you are throwing the baby out with the bathwater.The boat has a perfectly good Volvo diesel as well as a hybrid drive system.

I have seen the Greenlines at the last couple of boat shows in Sydney, to me they are very impressive, especially the 40' model.

Whilst the hybrid populsion may have limited application(for me anyway) the boat as a package stacks up very well against other boats on the market that are available for the same price, and that's the nub of it.

The design of the boat is excellent, they are better looking than the website photo's indicate, there is a resemblance to Halvorsen's classical design, again especially the 40',

The interior layout breaks away from the traditional trawler boat style, the positioning of the galley opening up onto the aft entertaining area is excellent, maybe not so good for liveaboards, or those from the Pacific Northwest, but for anyone boating in warm climes on a weekend basis this boat deserves a look.

I have no idea what they retail for in the US, but here the asking price on a new 40' is about $530K(boats are more expensive in Oz) The real question is if you had that type of money to spend on a new boat, would it be on your shortlist?
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Old 04-01-2014, 08:04 PM   #33
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Old 04-01-2014, 08:12 PM   #34
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I don't see hybrid tech on boats passing the cost/benefit test. On cars, regenerative braking and keeping the engine in a good spot on the bsfc map makes it viable. Nothing similar on a boat. There is a large amount of power needed to move a boat at anything beyond walking speed, and nothing electric can match the energy density in a big tank of diesel. Solar collectors still have very low output per sqft so can provide just a tiny fraction of energy required to move a boat. Or requires an absurd amount of surface area (see above photo). If the goal is to minimize diesel consumption to extremely low levels, that is what sailboats do very well. In fact, if diesel gets to say $10/gal, that's probably the way I'll go. Managing house electrical, refrigeration and hvac does have room for some creative engineering, but existing systems that most of us use are pretty efficient already. Fun tech to play with, but I don't see its viability.
You took the words right out of my mouth. The key is that the things that yield an efficiency gain in a hybrid auto ( regenerative braking and running the engine in a more efficient power band) don't exist in a boat application. Throw in the power conversion losses, and it makes no engineering sense at all.

But hybrids is good so a hybrid boat must be good and green. And after all, it's called GreenLune. So I'll run out and buy one.
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Old 04-01-2014, 08:29 PM   #35
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Boy!! Not a very appealing bow. . . . reminds me of something from our Art Deco period.

Anybody have any idea what the batteries are and cost of replacement?
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Old 04-01-2014, 09:18 PM   #36
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What type HAZMAT occurs from the batt bank if/when boat sinks? Properly gated and reverse-flo valved fuel tanks loose little to no fuel into water.
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Old 04-02-2014, 09:43 AM   #37
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In the last two issues Passagemaker magazine has had a couple of interesting articles on marine 'hybrids'. What I took away from the articles was, under specific and narrow conditions, and at very slow speeds (under 5 kts), under certain conditions a diesel-electric serial hybrid system might be somewhat more fuel efficient than a conventional diesel engine, because of the ability to run a smaller diesel engine at its most efficient speed (though they made a lot of assumptions in the articles, including 90% conversion efficiency). Otherwise, most of the scenarios they modeled seemed to show a conventional diesel engine being more efficient. There were also some comments in the articles about the complexity and associated reliability issues with a hybrid system (and removal of a system in a boat).

twistedtree and Ski, I think you hit the very heart of the issue - a car can benefit from the energy recapture of regenerative braking, a boat cannot. With the inherent losses of converting from one form of energy to another, I find it hard to imagine how a hybrid system could be more efficient under most conditions in a boat.

To me, the photovoltaic solar cell array is an interesting idea. Of course, being able to power around for 'free' is very appealing. But, while the theory is attractive, the practice is a little different. With the low efficiency of solar cells, the relatively limited space available for the array, and the need for strong sunshine, I think Greenline claims that in strong sun the array could move the boat at 4 kts. Not bad, and OK for puttering around a harbor, but not enough to deal with any kind of current. If it would be possible to get solar only propulsion up to 7-8 kts, then I think it could be a much more attractive and viable proposition (in Florida at least, not in the cloudy PNW), but that would probably take a major advance in solar cell conversion efficiency (and battery capacity to have more useful range).

I looked at the Greenline 33 and 40. Every boat is inherently a compromise and can't appeal to everyone in every way. For my own personal tastes, there were things I liked very much about the designs, and other things not so much. I personally like the 'super displacement' hull design, being able to cruise fuel efficiently (under diesel power) in the low to mid teens is right where I want to be. I also liked the general layout of the boats, with the walk-around side decks and retro profile.

I didn't like what I thought was poor engine room access in the 33 (you have to lift some of the salon furniture and move other floor and other panels, and then have to be a bit of a contortionist, or at least more limber and thinner than I am). I also personally am not a fan of the glass rear bulkhead. I appreciate that it makes for a great dockside party platform, opening up the salon and lowering the transom and all that. I personally prefer a solid bulkhead with a more weather and sea-proof door. Some of the hardware on the boat (cleats, etc.) also seemed a little skimpy, but small stuff like that can be easily upgraded.

For me, it's an interesting concept, and one to watch. Like any first-generation technology (early cars, the first PC's, etc.) it's far from perfect and I won't be one of the early adopters, but hopefully future generations will continue to evolve and improve.
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Old 04-02-2014, 10:32 AM   #38
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Greenlines emotional popularity in high tax regions such as Australia and Europe is obvious with diesel fuel at more than 50% higher than what we see in NA. There is no shortage of diesel, only a shortage of low diesel tax countries.

With logic such as Ski and Twisted enunciate, and with many of us in lower sunlight latitudes, efficient hull design and the hand on the throttle seem lasting fuel saving endeavors.

But give it to Greenline, they have created a marketing niche which is what this yachting business is all about. Look no further than Nordhavn, Nordic Tug, Bayliner or Selene to see marketing 101 successfully at work in trawlers we tend to covet.
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Old 04-02-2014, 12:54 PM   #39
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To me, the photovoltaic solar cell array is an interesting idea. Of course, being able to power around for 'free' is very appealing. But, while the theory is attractive, the practice is a little different. With the low efficiency of solar cells, the relatively limited space available for the array, and the need for strong sunshine, I think Greenline claims that in strong sun the array could move the boat at 4 kts. Not bad, and OK for puttering around a harbor, but not enough to deal with any kind of current. If it would be possible to get solar only propulsion up to 7-8 kts, then I think it could be a much more attractive and viable proposition (in Florida at least, not in the cloudy PNW), but that would probably take a major advance in solar cell conversion efficiency (and battery capacity to have more useful range).
On that point, the solar/regenerative/one-way-or-another electricity is interesting idea that can supplement/offset some carbon based fuels and reduce emissions. Me thinks, there is a different, much bigger shift in thinking represented in Greenline pleasure boats than renewable energy.

Look at the big and powerful diesel locomotives, well … they are really electricity driven beasts. They were invented over 100 years ago. A similar approach migrated to personal cars only in the last 7-10 years. The same is beginning to happen with boats now … the electric propulsion system concepts already used in big and powerful ships like Wärtsilä Electric Propulsion are migrating to pleasure boats.

I find the Greenline's electric/diesel powertrain to be more important innovation in this type of boat, primary and perhaps the disruptive change, than how the electricity is generated or provided which is a secondary issue.

I like the idea that the propulsion can be generated directly by electric motor or directly by diesel engine.

I like the idea that you do not have to install and run two separate diesel engines to have propulsion and generate electricity … one would need a second diesel engine for redundancy only, not for the functionality.

I like the idea that the powertrain can be driven by renewable sources of electric energy, whatever they might be now or in future, but do not depend on them exclusively.

I like the options that this approach provides … well, until the fuel cell is perfected and feasible …
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Old 04-07-2014, 05:31 PM   #40
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Nice electric boat video's: Videos | ReGen Hybrid Electric Marine Power

www.regennautic.com

Way I see it:


Currently limited available duration of electric batt power, as well as the required full recharge time span and the recharge-equipment costs makes these boats seem suspect regarding what I believe would be the overall initial and ongoing cost of the system, as compared to its "real" efficiency. In other words, besides being fairly "green" during use, but not "green" at all during most techniques of batt recharge, what cost factor would prompt expensive boats such as this to become a mainstay toward sales in the Pleasure Boat Industry?

However, once system is installed then I imagine better batteries could be installed when/if batt tech reaches new levels of quick recharge and power to weight ratios. Each item throughout using fossil fuel powered engines to charge batteries to turn electric engines to rotate props have automatically inherent efficiency loss ratios at every step of the game.

Now, if there were some way to get solar energy, wind energy, and wave motion to amply recharge the batts... then I believe these electric power systems could become real winners!

I do not mean to be a naysayer - Just a realist to current facts of physics regarding available selections of equipment at hand.

I always wish the electric boat industry worlds of success... but... currently I see some really, really big hurdles to somehow overcome.
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