Help! What am I about to buy??

[Bigfish]

Broker says it was one of a limited number of trawlers made by Formosa for customers and employees that wanted to switch to power. I can't find another, nor can I find any info on the yard, build quality, etc. I've looked at a lot of boats in the last few days trying to find similarities but I've only found a 40 Formosa that looks very similar. Hopefully some of you will recognize this boat maybe under a different name. Thanks for your help! Great site! I'm hoping to live aboard and cruise the keys and Caribbean for a year or so....

http://www.yachtworld.com/core/list...nits=Feet&access=Public&listing_id=74679&url=

Thanks again,

Bigfish

 

[Ben]

I have a Lehman derivative the ADC. Lehman engines are pretty much tanks. No worries there.

Any older boat will have a few issues. Depends on what you or your survey finds.

 

[Bigfish]

Thanks Ben! I'm really concerned about the fuel tanks and the build quality the most. Just seems odd that I can' find even one other one like it..

 

[Ben]

A little off topic, but about fuel tanks, I've wanted to buy one of those camera probes on the end of a snake cable that reach everywhere. Might be good for inspecting tanks. I think about $225.

 

[dhmeissner]

Not sure. The only Formosa 42 I've known about was a Robert Perry sailboat. This boat comes with a lathe, cool.

 

[CPseudonym]

I merged your duplicate threads into one for you Bigfish as to make it easier for folks to follow and answer your questions.

 

[123]

This is what I found on the World Wide Web;

Formosa boats

 

[Craig Schreck]

If the fuel tanks have inspection plates I would recommend you have the tanks pumped out cleaned & inspected, its best done when on the hard for survey, If the tanks show heavy scale you may want to sonic test them wile they are empty. If they prove to be sound then that's one less thing to think about wile offshore. Craig S

 

[bobsyiruncle]

At the risk of getting severely beat up here, I do not mind the boat or the asking price. I know it isn't perfect but it is not priced as such. Of course you are going to pay less and of course you are going to have a survey, but if this gets you into a lifestyle that makes you and your admiral happy while you are healthy and can actually enjoy it - good for you.
Nuts to the pristine promoters.

 

[Ben]

Ok.
Looked at the pics a little more closely.
1. Saw what looks like some watermarks near the anchor chain locker.
2. Lots of exterior woodwork, I'd be pretty comfortable with laying on the varnish.
3. If there are watermarks, as you inspect the boat, you want to go around every window frame and push in with th tip of your finger to check for water intrusion.

Whether a lot or a little, you'll have a bit of wood maintenance to do with the boat. So if I was good with wood, I'd buy the boat depending on survey. If I felt uncomfortable with my woodworking, I'd look a less woody boat.

The lathe is a nice touch though. I'd ask what did they use it for, might tell you a lot about what was done to the boat.

Capt. Reizinger - nice old spec sheets. I was impressed to read that the engines included shafts and propellers.

 

[Daddyo]

Bigfish,
Send me a PM with your email and I'll send you what your looking for.
Best!

 

[123]

Hi Ben, I agree with you these are nice old documents.

But I also read that the tanks are "painted black iron" if they are still in the boat you can expect that they are in need of replacement.

 

[beachbum29]

By the sound of your post, your instincts are telling you no.

I follow my instincts.

 

[BruceK]

Hard to disguise rot in varnished timber windows, easy in painted ones.
Don`t give up too easily, it`s a lot of boat showing either much love by PO or good pre sale prep. Traditional Formosa sailboats were sold here. The iron tanks are a risk especially as decks needed replacement, can you see the tops to assess? If you`ve been looking a while,this one fits requirements, build quality, tanks and price turn out ok, don`t let low production volume stop you.

 

[Bigfish]

Thanks to everybody!

I put a deposit on the boat but had to return to Salem, Oregon before I could check much. I haven't paid for the survey yet but I've talked to one and told him to get in touch with the broker to arrange everything. Broker said the survey would be first, with me along for education... then the sea trial, then the haulout. I would think the sea trial would be first so I don't waste money on the survey if that goes south..?? Also, what happens to surveys done by the PO's?? 700 gallon painted iron tank? I'm assuming that would be two 350's?? How do you get THOSE out of the hull??? Can they be repaired? Cleaned up? Could they be ok??

I'm talking to the broker and the surveyor tomorrow and I'll ask all those questions before I go any further.

Thank you all again for all the great info!!!!

Bigfish

 

[BruceK]

I put a deposit on the boat.. Broker said the survey would be first, with me along for education... then the sea trial, then the haulout. I would think the sea trial would be first so I don't waste money on the survey if that goes south..?? Also, what happens to surveys done by the PO's?? 700 gallon painted iron tank? I'm assuming that would be two 350's?? How do you get THOSE out of the hull??? Can they be repaired? Cleaned up? Could they be ok??
I'm talking to the broker and the surveyor tomorrow and I'll ask all those questions before I go any further.Bigfish

I would get a mechanical survey and I`d want him on the sea trial. Isn`t haul out part of survey, but if you do it in stages and it goes bad you get to bail before spending all the survey $. On the tanks, see where survey takes you, if it is a deal breaker survey them first. You may do things in different order over there. Nice if the PO shares any surveys, good starting point.

 

[Art]

http://www.yachtworld.com/core/list...nits=Feet&access=Public&listing_id=74679&url=

Thanks again,

Bigfish

Hi Bigfish – Welcome to TF

The boat looks pretty good. Just be real careful in all levels of boat and mechanical survey. Test that baby thoroughly during sea trial... show her no mercy – cause once you buy her – you own her and all her ways (i.e. problems or not problems).

I recommend to be sure that you and/or surveyor thoroughly check the stringers as well as around all windows with a good quality moisture meter.

If water reads in stringers... and the stringers are wood cored, rather than close cell foam cored - - > RUN Away! If closed cell foam cored and stringer surfaces show no cross cracks or bastard-cracks on top/sides or peeling/delimitation at junction to hull then even if moisture has wicked into the foam there should be no problem. But... if water wicked into wood cored stringers – please remember to RUN!

To check stringer core material: Get OK from owner and drill a 1/4 inch bit three inches at right angle into stringer's at a few lower side areas - either wood or foam should come out. If the wood is dark and moist/wet - RUN Fast!

That’s just my opinion... take it for what it’s worth!

Best Luck - Art

 

[Peter B]

Looks nice, great price. Hard to go wrong there unless there is something very vital and very expensive needed ASAP. Most boat tanks of that era were painted black iron. As long as water has not been in contact or sitting on top from leaky decks, causing rust, they should be ok. I doubt I would be delving inside them until that possibility has been checked out. If they are ok, and the engine good to go, and most other things work, the rest is do-able yourself, if cosmetic, and overall, the pics are quite flattering in that regard.

 

[Marin]

A Formosa is a typical early 80s Taiwan Trawler. Here is a link to an article that does a great job of describing the pros and con's of this type of boat. http://www.bluehorizonsailing.net/wp-content/uploads/2012/02/venerable_taiwanese_trawlers.pdf

 

[refugio]

In addition to what others have mentioned, I'll note that the date on the pics is over 2 years old, and if it's correct (many aren't) then 2 years in the Florida sun (probably without maintenance) will have taken a significant toll.

Other than the tanks, my #1 concern would be water intrusion. The boat was obviously loved at some point, but that level of love is difficult to sustain. The "fiberglassed" decks would be something I'd want to know a lot more about - in particular why it was done (often to cover up rot) and how was it done (the edges are a particular source of concern).

I think that water got into this boat at one time - look at the forward end of the saloon settee just above the floor - and that is never, ever a good thing. If it was salt water, it will show up immediately in places like the unprotected electrical connections. If all of that is new, it would point to a boat that was a hurricane salvage.

 

[Bigfish]

In addition to what others have mentioned, I'll note that the date on the pics is over 2 years old, and if it's correct (many aren't) then 2 years in the Florida sun (probably without maintenance) will have taken a significant toll.

Other than the tanks, my #1 concern would be water intrusion. The boat was obviously loved at some point, but that level of love is difficult to sustain. The "fiberglassed" decks would be something I'd want to know a lot more about - in particular why it was done (often to cover up rot) and how was it done (the edges are a particular source of concern).

I think that water got into this boat at one time - look at the forward end of the saloon settee just above the floor - and that is never, ever a good thing. If it was salt water, it will show up immediately in places like the unprotected electrical connections. If all of that is new, it would point to a boat that was a hurricane salvage.

Thanks Refugio. I looked at the photo you're talking about and there's also another one of the same spot where everything looks fine. I'm wondering if what we're seeing is just the years of people's feet banging against that bulkhead as that's where the food gets handed up from the galley. (there's a little "window," there like at a restaurant). See how hopeful I am? I've picked up a wealth of knowledge about what to look for and where to look as well as looking for alternative boats. There's a '79 GB42 with rebuilt everything for not much more, but it has the teak decks. I'm guessing water intrusion is less likely on a GB... The GB is considerably heavier and draws more water so is probably less economical... So many trade-offs!!!

 

[refugio]

Thanks Refugio. I looked at the photo you're talking about and there's also another one of the same spot where everything looks fine. I'm wondering if what we're seeing is just the years of people's feet banging against that bulkhead as that's where the food gets handed up from the galley

Er, I'm talking about photo 4 - of the settee with table. Look at the forward end of the base of that settee. To be fair there is a door just forward of that with a small window, but you have to wonder what happened there. My gut feel is that there was carpeting that got soaked and was left to molder that got under the varnish. Whenever you see something that doesn't match, you need to try to figure out why. The sole of the saloon is completely refinished, but nothing else down there is quite up to that level. So that tells me that the sole was truly awful so they refinished that and called it a day.

I'm guessing water intrusion is less likely on a GB... The GB is considerably heavier and draws more water so is probably less economical... So many trade-offs!!!

Well, on a 32 year old boat I'm going to say that maintenance is going to be as important as original build quality - over that time all of the original caulking and sealants would have gone past their lifespan and it's what was done at that point that determines how bad it gets. Better built boats might be easier to repair, and their higher value might mean that the owners had deeper pockets, but when you're talking about a 30yo boat that's gone through a succession of owners then it gets really dicey to make any prediction that's not based on a comprehensive survey.

Also, look at the inside of the window in the aft bulkhead above that settee - I can see water ingress there but I can't guess how much came in and where it went. Actually, I could - water always follows gravity - but you'll have to trace it to see where it ended up and what damage (if any) it caused. If it made it into the bilge, maybe no big deal. If it created a puddle on top of one of those tanks...

Oh, and for this style of boat there isn't a substantial difference in fuel economy between average and heavy boats at displacement speeds. And unless you're cruising several thousand hours a year, fuel isn't going to be your biggest cost anyway.

 

[Marin]

Grand Banks are built well with high quality materials and components but they are by no means light on maintenance. In fact they require more maintenance than some "lesser" makes due to the teak decking on 99 percent of them, the rainforest of external teak trim on all but the mid-90s and later boats, and the all-wood interior, window frames, etc.

If you don't enjoy maintaining a boat, a GB may not be the boat you want, particularly an older one, wood or fiberglass. We've been living with one for 14 years now and while it's a very good boat and we get a ton of use out of it, it is a nonstop list of projects. For every one we complete another arrives to take its place.

If I was retired and we kept it in a boathouse it would be easier to get out ahead of it, but I'm not in the case of the former and we would never do this in the case of the latter because of the way we use the boat.

Anyone who thinks, "Well, I'll get a GB and my maintenance worries will be over," had better think again.

 

[CPseudonym]

Wise advice Marin. I looked at both a GB32/36 and had a similar impression. Beautiful boats but loaded with opportunities to practice varnish and caulking skills everywhere.

We have no regrets going with our nearly no exterior wood.

 

[hollywood8118]

Bigfish
The reality is it is a 32+ year old boat for about $ 50,000. There are VERY few 32 year old boats that have not leaked around a window or port at some point in its life. How the leak was addressed is really more important.

The boat looks to be low time on the twin Lehman's, looks to be fairly well maintained ( from the pics on the ad.... but we all know how those can be.. ). You have looked at it in person and you must think it looks similar to the pics or you would of commented otherwise. Get the sea trial done and see if it performs to YOUR liking, do the survey.. then decide if the issues that come up are a deal breaker. If it is to your liking enjoy your $50K 42' boat... if not keep looking.

Too many people in the used boat market seem to think a 32 year old boat should be in flawless shape and as perfect as a new $ 400,000+ 42' boat...
Do you feel the same way about a used car?
Good Luck
HOLLYWOOD

 

[Formosa]

Hello Bigfish:

I have a Formosa 42 Europa and may be able to shed some light on the manufacturer. Formosa Boat Building Company (manufacturer identification code: FBB) was a good-sized yard but built mostly sailboats (Island Traders, Yankee Clippers, Peterson 46, Hudson Force 50, Vagabonds and deritatives) which were good-naturedly called Leaky Teakies (they even have a yahoo user group). The yard also built a small number of trawlers like "your" 40 and my 42. Over the years I have seen a handful of 40s on YachtWorld but have never found another 42. Reiziger's post with the original sales brochures give you the specs. Mine has two 325-gallon black iron fuel tanks with integral inspection ports. One is just starting to weep a bit of fuel. The Coast Guard resource says the company was formed in 1973 went out of business on Tuesday, October 15, 2002. At the time of dissolution, it was controlled by a Jeff Chin with a Los Angeles address.

My surveyor, who has dealt with lots of various Asian-built trawlers over the decades said the Formosa build quality was quite good and strong. Sort of like a Buick compared to Chevy (CHB/Marine Trader). But he surmises that the recession of the early 1980s did in the Formosa trawlers because they had to compete with the CHB price-point with not enough perceived upmarket quality reputation like a Grand Banks. Many people, including brokers, think Formosa and Universal were one and the same but I haven't found a direct link although some of the joiner work looks similar. Not really much else on the internet about Formosa's powerboats but they made thousands of sailboats with lots of info on the web.

Hope this helps a bit.

 

[alormaria]

Any boat that comes with it's own lathe is OK in my book.

Survey, sea trial and haul out sounds right to me. Yes, you have to be there for them all. Don't be surprised if no one involved is going to guarantee the conditions of the fuel tanks. Hull surveyors don't do fuel tanks and mechanical surveyors don't either. On a 32 year old $50k boat they are not a deal breaker as long as nothing else is over the top. There are plenty of options at lots of price points. It's just good to know what you are getting into at the start.

Which brings up another 800 lb gorilla.... You do realize the $50k is just the ante to get into this game? Once you pull down the lever on that meter you are responsible for repairs, maintenance, improvements as well as dockage, haul outs and insurance. And then all the unforeseen... They can take the bloom off the rose pretty quick.

Just sayin'.

 

[sunchaser]

Which brings up another 800 lb gorilla.... You do realize the $50k is just the ante to get into this game?
Just sayin'.

Spot on!

A look at higher priced vessels may be cheaper in the short let alone the long run. Plus you will be boating a lot sooner. BTW, why are you not planning on boating in the PNW rather than FL? Lots to choose from up there and in your back yard.

 

[mahal]

The price of this vessel, or any others of this size, is too low for it not to be a fixer-upper. That said - it could also be a seller that priced it low for a quick sale. Then it might be a great deal. The survey will tell. Even if it turns out to be a fixer, so long as there are no major items needed, it still could be a good buy. My 2 cents.

 

[Marin]

While the number is certainly debatable and it will vary by boat type, condition, age, etc., a VERY rough rule of thumb that's useful for getting an idea of what a particular boat will cost you to own is to figure the annual cost of ownership--- moorage, insurance, electricity, water (maybe), fuel, maintenance, repairs, upgrades, new equipment, labor (if you hire work out)---- basically everything except the purchase payments if you finance the boat--- is ten percent of the purchase price of the boat for every year you own the boat.

Some years will be more--- like when we had to have our worn out engine mounts replaced or later when we had one shaft straightened and bought a new one for the other side, or when we had the old failing exhaust systems on our engines replaced with new custom-built fiberglass systems--- and some years will be less. But while we have not actually sat down and run all the numbers, a rough estimate shows that over the last 14 years we've probably averaged pretty close to that ten percent figure.

Actually, if we did run the numbers I suspect we'd find it's probably more like fifteen percent these days as moorage prices continue to creep up along with labor (diesel mechanic, prop shop, etc.) and of course, fuel although compared to everything else fuel is a very small percentage of the annual ownership cost.

So as Al rightly says, don't get caught up in the euphoria of "I bought a boat, now I can go boating" sort of thing. That statement is true, of course, but make sure you realize if you don't know it already that what the purchase of a boat has really done is admit you to the world of supporting your local economy by paying and paying and paying and paying for the privilege of continuing to own and use that boat.