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Old 06-25-2012, 10:41 PM   #21
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That's just wrong...

Back then the hulls were stronger - the interior layouts were a masterpiece of space conservation - the engines ( mostly 6-cyl) were economical ; built to last and easy to fix - the Taiwanese wood crafting was second to none , and they were alot sexier than the plastic crap built today.

...sure they installed mild steel fuel tanks , but stainless tanks werent invented untill 1993

Agreed..... The wood work is amazing and something that would cost hundreds of thousands of dollars, if desired new today. Every brand has problems if not taken care of.
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Old 06-26-2012, 06:18 AM   #22
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That's just wrong...

Back then the hulls were stronger - the interior layouts were a masterpiece of space conservation - the engines ( mostly 6-cyl) were economical ; built to last and easy to fix - the Taiwanese wood crafting was second to none , and they were alot sexier than the plastic crap built today.

...sure they installed mild steel fuel tanks , but stainless tanks werent invented untill 1993
Oh yeah...lets see..

I'm discussing thick gel coats with dry laminates underneath that were thicker but not stronger than todays hulls or resistant to blistering like vinylester, piecemeal bridge decks and poured resin rather than solid core, wood trimmed windows notorious for leaking, the electrical systems were hit or miss, plywood houses with gel sprayed on, teak screwed directly into the deck coring...etc..etc...

AND YOU ARE SAYING THEY HAVE PRETTY WOOD WORK AND NICE LAYOUTS AND THAT EQUALS GOOD CONSTUCTION METHODS?????

Those methods must have been so good...because all have been changed since the 80's....
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Old 06-26-2012, 08:47 AM   #23
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The broker told me the deck was solid fiberglass and no core.
The one person you should absolutely never, ever trust is the broker. You must verify anything that a broker tells you.
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Old 06-26-2012, 09:04 AM   #24
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...etc..etc...
At the risk of piling on, the metals used were in many cases suspect as well. Steel fuel tanks, steering materials, even some of the bronze castings. The really big one there is the possibility of having to replace fuel tanks.
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Old 06-26-2012, 09:50 AM   #25
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At the risk of piling on, the metals used were in many cases suspect as well. Steel fuel tanks, steering materials, even some of the bronze castings. The really big one there is the possibility of having to replace fuel tanks.
Pile on.......there's plenty of things that are wrong with the CONSTRUCTION methods....

I own one...am rebuilding one and would buy another if I don't hit the lotto first...

But to say they are built with GOOD construction methods for BOATs is misleading.

Yes to many good things about them...but the constuction methods ain't one of them...
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Old 06-27-2012, 12:03 AM   #26
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May I suggest:

Visit Yachtworld advanced search. Type in Tollycraft, enter the lower and upper size you desire. Enjoy reviewing a great line of well constructed craft that were built in the USA; designed by Ed Monk Sr. and Jr. Tolly are some of the best production boats - - > Ever! IMHO...

Need I say more!!
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Old 06-27-2012, 09:57 AM   #27
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Refugio, what is your boat? Other than the lack of a flybridge it has almost the perfect profile to me (i'd like the pilothouse just a little farther aft). She's a beaut, how about some specs.
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Old 06-27-2012, 07:25 PM   #28
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We started much the same as you, with express cruisers. it took us a lot longer (25 years) to make the jump to a trawler. The last 4 or 5 years with our Bayliner 32' Avanti were spent at 8 kts because that where our cruising friends with full displacement and semi displacement hull would run. We got used to the slower speed and decided to make the move. i would suggest running your Rinker at 8kts for a few hours at a time and make sure your ok at slow speeds.
By the way ours is a Mainship; American made , and there are a lot of them out there. Early 34's from 1978 till 82 (i think) some early 36's and 40's with aft cabins, then in 97 (i think) they started with a 35 that became a 39 (same boat) then a 40, a new 34 and a 43. The early 34's are often discussed in magazines as one of the most successful powerboat designs ever made (along with the Bertram 28)
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Old 06-28-2012, 08:14 PM   #29
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Still looking at the clipper. Confirmed the house is wood fiberglass covered. Is that standard construction and is it a problem to keep moisture out of the core or is it actually a sandwiched core. If inside finish work were removed would I see plywood?

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Old 06-28-2012, 08:48 PM   #30
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Greetings,
Mr. kp. While I can't comment on the vessel you're considering specifically, I do have experience with plywood houses covered in FRP. This construction technique is perfectly fine as long as the integrity of the covering and where it joins to other elements of the vessel (windows, doors and deck) is strictly maintained as watertight. This is the problem. Maintaining water tightness.
If water penetrates and wets the plywood, one has the potential of severe structural damage which could be cost prohibitive to repair on an older vessel.
EVERY vessel that I'm aware of needs maintenance at some point in it's life to renew caulking and sealants to preserve water tightness. If the vessel you're interested in has had regular upkeep and maintenance there should be minimum water intrusion and subsequent related damage. Keep the water on the outside where it belongs.
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Old 06-29-2012, 05:20 AM   #31
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The above posting is correct , but the problem is most owners will not do maint till forced to.

Sealant has a limited life , but few owners will rip out the windows to reseal them if there NOT leaking.

Sadly human nature is the demise of the "Chinese Composite" of many TT, a thin layer of glass poly stuck on a sheet of house ply.

When the sealants go , the repair is frequently beyond the value of the vessel.

So the owners goop till some leaks stop , and continue to enjoy cottaging aboard.

This actually works just fine for decades , just never take one of these boats into an offshore situation. One comber landing on board may remove too much boat.

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Old 06-29-2012, 07:11 AM   #32
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Wow, a lot of information and more confusion. First as suggested I have used the Rinker at slow speeds and have had no problems, 7 knots a little slow and 9 knots perfect as long as steering is positive. The Rinker at 7 knots or 9 is a constant challenge to stay the course. Steering is also very hard. Maybe power steering is not working well. I am planning to check the pump this weekend. The attraction to a trowler is better seakeeping, economical operation and much more accessable components for maintenance. But, add the extensive windows and wood molding that is appears leak (The clipper I am looking at showes signs of window leakage in one spot. Not bad iut quick fix was a layer of fiberglass cloth at bottom edge of window.) add extensively to the maintenance. If this type of repair is simply a matter of removing and resealing that doesn't seem extremely oppressive. Assuming the plywood is not rotted. I guess I should say the preventive doesn't seem too bad. I know have two engines and everything takes twice as long and worst of all not easily accessable. Looked at a couple of Albins and they had soft decks and extensive windo leaks. I assume the house it probably rotted. Found two Mainships both with soft deck areas in the stern. Both owners told me this is common. Didn't know Bayliner made a trowler. Single engine diesel? Will look into Bertram. My bet is the amount I want to spend for a boat will limit me to the 80's boats, which by the way I think are cosmetically beautiful to look at. I assume most of the 80's boats were built with the same methods and suffer from the same problems.

Ken
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Old 06-29-2012, 07:16 AM   #33
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Hoping to show my wife the Clipper this weekend. First she must like the setup. The rest is in my hands. I will take a closer look at the windo that shows signs of leakage. Of course a survey will be done but if I find excessive moisture then I will save myself the expense of a survey on that boat.
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PS sorry about the typos in the above post
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Old 06-29-2012, 08:26 AM   #34
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Wow, a lot of information and more confusion. First as suggested I have used the Rinker at slow speeds and have had no problems, 7 knots a little slow and 9 knots perfect as long as steering is positive. The Rinker at 7 knots or 9 is a constant challenge to stay the course. Steering is also very hard. Maybe power steering is not working well. I am planning to check the pump this weekend. The attraction to a trowler is better seakeeping, economical operation and much more accessable components for maintenance. But, add the extensive windows and wood molding that is appears leak (The clipper I am looking at showes signs of window leakage in one spot. Not bad iut quick fix was a layer of fiberglass cloth at bottom edge of window.) add extensively to the maintenance. If this type of repair is simply a matter of removing and resealing that doesn't seem extremely oppressive. Assuming the plywood is not rotted. I guess I should say the preventive doesn't seem too bad. I know have two engines and everything takes twice as long and worst of all not easily accessable. Looked at a couple of Albins and they had soft decks and extensive windo leaks. I assume the house it probably rotted. Found two Mainships both with soft deck areas in the stern. Both owners told me this is common. Didn't know Bayliner made a trowler. Single engine diesel? Will look into Bertram. My bet is the amount I want to spend for a boat will limit me to the 80's boats, which by the way I think are cosmetically beautiful to look at. I assume most of the 80's boats were built with the same methods and suffer from the same problems.

Ken
Most 80's vintage trawlers are gonna cost you a lot more than the asking price unless you are in the top tier of the market prices.

When I was looking at 38-43 footers the price range was from maybe $40-$120,000. I got mine just under $60,000 with a 2 year old 135 Lehman. If I had a yard do my bottom, fix the windows and decks....it would have easily cost $60,000. Now add tank removal and replacement in the next couple years (not leaking but pretty rusty) and a few other projects and I would have been better off with one of the more expensive ones where the PO paid the big costs.

BUT...I'm doing the work myself and it should only cost me for the bottom, all new windows and decks...$10-$15,000. But most people aren't comfortable with that level of work.

Hopefully when I am done I will have split the difference in cost between the really clean trawlers (with unknown problems) and what I paid/invested...and I know I will have a boat that is closer to new...and better than factory in many areas.

So unless you are REALLY handy...older Taiwan trawlers can be a roll of the dice. And DON'T think a surveyor will catch the big stuff...mine missed what could have been a $30,000 bottom job!
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Old 06-29-2012, 08:36 AM   #35
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Yeah, I have not had good reports regarding surveyors. I do my own work and rather enjoy it as long as the area is accessable. Also commercial pilot and work on my own aircraft. Think I enjoy working on them more than flying. Fuel tanks? Mild steel and rust. With diesel fuel I would not expect a lot of rust unless water was in the tank and then I would be suspect of the engine. Diesels don't like water at all, or at leat my truck doesn't. Some of the tanks I saw were Stainless Steel, I think, and yes the broker doesn't seem to know much about the boat.

Ken
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Old 06-29-2012, 08:43 AM   #36
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Yeah, I have not had good reports regarding surveyors. I do my own work and rather enjoy it as long as the area is accessable. Also commercial pilot and work on my own aircraft. Think I enjoy working on them more than flying. Fuel tanks? Mild steel and rust. With diesel fuel I would not expect a lot of rust unless water was in the tank and then I would be suspect of the engine. Diesels don't like water at all, or at leat my truck doesn't. Some of the tanks I saw were Stainless Steel, I think, and yes the broker doesn't seem to know much about the boat.

Ken
rust from the outside in....
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Old 06-29-2012, 09:29 AM   #37
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Yeah, I have not had good reports regarding surveyors. I do my own work and rather enjoy it as long as the area is accessable.
You might benefit from one of David Pascoe's books:
Power Boat Books by David Pascoe, Marine Surveyor
Like anyone else who expresses strong opinons (particularly in the marine world), Pascoe has some detractors. But if you get "Surveying Fiberglass Power Boats" and a moisture meter (and spend some time learning how to interpret its readings) you will be in a more knowledgeable position.

Also, while it's not about surveying per se, Bill Bishop's blog is good (and he's a very entertaining writer!):
The Marine Installer's Rant
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Old 06-29-2012, 09:33 AM   #38
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when we narrowed our search to 34 Mainships we found 2 out of a dozen (atleast) that didn't have the rotten cockpit. they are out there but you will have to ferret them out. Also be on the lookout for sagging decks under the rear sliding door, the floor may be solid still but the support has begun to rot.

As for the rusting tanks, PS is correct. Most of the time the top is what rusts out due to water getting in around the deck fill and resting atop the tank in the inevitable "bowl" shape that most all have. This kept us from buying 2 Defevers and one other "top named" boat who's brand escapes me ATM. Corroded tanks normaly wouldn't be a deciding factor in a boat's purchase for us but there were just so many to choose from at that time that there was NO reason to dive into that.
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Old 06-29-2012, 10:23 AM   #39
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The 'seakeeping' requirement intrigues me? What are the physical properties of a boat that promote seakeeping? Do these properties compromise other characteristics? Is seakeeping comfort or safety? Boats that have been around 30 years have inherently demonstrated a resistance to sinking.

On the window thing. It's not possible to have only a single window leak on a 30 year old boat unless there's signs of physical damage. Trust me, others are leaking in secret.
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Old 06-29-2012, 11:52 AM   #40
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The 'seakeeping' requirement intrigues me? What are the physical properties of a boat that promote seakeeping? Do these properties compromise other characteristics? Is seakeeping comfort or safety? Boats that have been around 30 years have inherently demonstrated a resistance to sinking.

On the window thing. It's not possible to have only a single window leak on a 30 year old boat unless there's signs of physical damage. Trust me, others are leaking in secret.
but only THAT boat...there are a billion factors why a particular boat didn't sink..it has nothing to do with ANYTHING ELSE...

Now start looking at subsets and the reasoning starts to sharpen quickly...
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