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Old 07-09-2018, 02:23 PM   #61
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Ok just ran the engine at 1200 rpm for 10 min started fine, a small bit of white smoke at startup but that dissipated 5 min later. Oil is a mix of the sludge from yesterday diluted in the new oil. I am starting to remove it right now and redo an oil change.
Something puzzling me, no water out of the oil cooler by the oil fittings and coolant level in the expansion tank rose a bit like expected when engines warm up.

L
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Old 07-09-2018, 02:23 PM   #62
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Talk about a cliff hanger!!! Hope it goes your way
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Old 07-09-2018, 03:48 PM   #63
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Second oil change is done, replaced oil and filter and ran 1200rpm for something like 7minutes.
Coolant level rose a bit more what was expected from engine being warmer. Not a drop of smoke neither at startup nor while running.
No water out of oil cooler and oil looks cleaner than ever.
Usually when I do an oil change after running 5min oil is starting to turn black again because of oil remaining in engine. Now after 2 oil change in a row oil is perfect clear, I may notice still some trace so to be sure I will do another oil change next weekend (need to order extra oil filters).
I am totally lost about what could have done this.
The picture below is oil on the dipstick after second change and engine run:
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Old 07-09-2018, 04:50 PM   #64
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The plot thickens. What rpm do you normally cruise?
Can you borrow a coolant system pressure tester?
Did you send out an oil sample? It not too late. You really need to know what was in there!
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Old 07-09-2018, 04:57 PM   #65
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Most car shops like NAPA, O'Reilys... have 'cooling system pressure testing equip' you can borrow or rent
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Old 07-09-2018, 05:25 PM   #66
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Usual cruising RPM is 1800 rpm.
Not yet send oil sample but I have all oil in jars and I will take sample of the grey sludge as well as oil after 2 changes to get that checked.
I will also remove the oil cooler and either make it tested or change it, it won’t be a bad thing anyway to have a new one.

But still I have no clue of what caused this at this point.

L
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Old 07-09-2018, 05:36 PM   #67
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Lou, when was the last time you changed the oil? Last fall?

And when did you notice the milky oil? When was the last time it looked normal on the stick?

Have you put many miles on the boat this season?

Trying to determine when the moisture might have gotten in there.
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Old 07-09-2018, 05:37 PM   #68
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Now some background info when this occurred if it can be of any help. It was our first weekend on the water after being back in water. Weekend was very hot and very very humid (more than 85% of humidity, 38C normal temp). First day checked oil level and oil was fine, full level and dark gold color. we started the engine, started immediately, no smoke, we went to the fuel dock and waited in line at idle for about 45 minutes before being able to dock to refuel. Then we departed for a 4h ride. Then morning after 3h ride to be back at the dock.
The day after we departed for a short 1h ride to an anchoring spot, checked the oil level and oil was a bit above full level but of the right color and texture. I put that to the fact that it was after an oil change (at haulout last year) and with a warmer day than ever I thought oil may have been a bit more fluid to go back in the pan.
The grey sludge has occurred during the 1h trip either round trip or returned trip.
Total 10h cruise in 3 days.

I must admit that if the oil cooler drip 1 drop every 30 second it can be a lot of water after 10h and may not be noticeable after 7min of run today.

L
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Old 07-09-2018, 09:16 PM   #69
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As info again here are 2 video of the engine running at 1200rpm and at idle

https://youtu.be/B-i41t6p6o4

https://youtu.be/KKjMUC5pdNY

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Old 07-10-2018, 07:48 AM   #70
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ski in NC View Post
Lou, when was the last time you changed the oil? Last fall?

And when did you notice the milky oil? When was the last time it looked normal on the stick?

Have you put many miles on the boat this season?

Trying to determine when the moisture might have gotten in there.
Last oil change was mid October last year, 2 days before haul out for winter.
Notice Milky oil last Saturday. Looked normal the week before.
We did only 10h of cruise 1 week ago on saturday, sunday, monday and it was first cruise of the year.
The milky cream must have happened on the last stretch on the monday.

L
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Old 07-10-2018, 11:44 AM   #71
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Another question, my engine is running at around 65C-67C at cruising speed. Do you see any problem to run it with the oil cooler bypassed?
I would like to do a 30min or 1h test run at cruise speed with the oil cooler out of the equation to see the result and check if get back some moisture again.

I also read that an engine running too cold can accumulate moisture in oil as it is not able to cook the moisture. What do you think of a 65C running temp? Low or normal? I tend to find this a bit low.

L
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Old 07-10-2018, 12:06 PM   #72
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Lou -
One other possibility of water getting in the the oil is from the exhaust. It can happen in following seas or even at the dock with waves lapping up over your exhaust outlet.

This shouldn't happen with a well designed exhaust system, but many boats don't have enough rise prior to their water muffler or prior to their exhaust outlet.

It may be worth having a look at that, if you can't find another source of water ingression.

https://www.sbmar.com/articles/desig...xhaust-system/
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Old 07-10-2018, 12:19 PM   #73
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Lou_tribal View Post
Another question, my engine is running at around 65C-67C at cruising speed. Do you see any problem to run it with the oil cooler bypassed?
I would like to do a 30min or 1h test run at cruise speed with the oil cooler out of the equation to see the result and check if get back some moisture again.

I also read that an engine running too cold can accumulate moisture in oil as it is not able to cook the moisture. What do you think of a 65C running temp? Low or normal? I tend to find this a bit low.

L
It may be ok, but its not so much what temp the engine is running at but how hot the oil is. If you have a temperature "Gun" you can check the oil temp by "shooting" the oil filter and oil pan. As long as its not over 220 or so it should be fine.

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Old 07-10-2018, 12:39 PM   #74
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This is very interesting, I forgot how to follow a thread without commenting therefore I am commenting. I understand that the oil is now clean and the oil side of the oil cooler is bypassed. I assume more testing is underway. Please continue to post.
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Old 07-10-2018, 12:42 PM   #75
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Originally Posted by Cliff Meima View Post
This is very interesting, I forgot how to follow a thread without commenting therefore I am commenting. I understand that the oil is now clean and the oil side of the oil cooler is bypassed. I assume more testing is underway. Please continue to post.
For sure I will continue to post.
More progress will take some time as I won't be back to the boat before next weekend, maybe weekend after depending on work.

L
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Old 07-10-2018, 12:51 PM   #76
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Your engine normally runs at 65-67C (=150F). Is that kind of low? MY 280HP Cummins 6BTA typically ran at 185F at cruise (1750 RPM vs 260RPM WOT). What is normal for Lehmans?
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Old 07-10-2018, 01:21 PM   #77
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65 C is very low for a fresh water cooled engine. Maybe you have a thermostat designed for a raw water cooled engine which is where they need to run to avoid salt water deposits in the block.

Running too low a temp will cause soot buildup as well as slightly lower efficiency.

But back to the main story: With clean oil and your cooler bypassed I would run it rather hard for an hour or so. Check the oil temps but with a block at 65 C I seriously doubt that your oil is too hot even without the cooler.

Then check for any new water in the oil. Also look in the coolant filler nozzle while under load and see if any bubbles are coming up. That is a sure sign of a blown head gasket.

But your problem is looking more like a one time raw water back up event. Look at the attached diagram which was developed for turbo charged engines, but relate it to your geometry with no turbo. If the clearance above the water level is too low then that can lead to back flooding.

Do you have a lift muffler? If so look at the second diagram of a well designed lift muffler system.

Both courtesy of Tony Athens.

David
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Old 07-10-2018, 01:34 PM   #78
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Here's a tidbit from an engine guy.....

"#63 "The picture below is oil on the dipstick after second change and engine run:"

Still looks dodgy to me. I suggest he looks up "crackle test" on Google and test in a frying pan over his home stove. He may be surprised."
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Old 07-10-2018, 02:13 PM   #79
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Quote:
Originally Posted by djmarchand View Post
65 C is very low for a fresh water cooled engine. Maybe you have a thermostat designed for a raw water cooled engine which is where they need to run to avoid salt water deposits in the block.

Running too low a temp will cause soot buildup as well as slightly lower efficiency.

But back to the main story: With clean oil and your cooler bypassed I would run it rather hard for an hour or so. Check the oil temps but with a block at 150 C I seriously doubt that your oil is too hot even without the cooler.

Then check for any new water in the oil. Also look in the coolant filler nozzle while under load and see if any bubbles are coming up. That is a sure sign of a blown head gasket.

But your problem is looking more like a one time raw water back up event. Look at the attached diagram which was developed for turbo charged engines, but relate it to your geometry with no turbo. If the clearance above the water level is too low then that can lead to back flooding.

Do you have a lift muffler? If so look at the second diagram of a well designed lift muffler system.

Both courtesy of Tony Athens.

David
I have a vetus waterlock right after the exhaust elbow, I would say 10inches below exhaust elbow, one like this one:

https://www.vetus.com/en/exhaust-sys...odna-8336.html

Out from the waterlock exhaust is going almost horizontal than do a "goose neck" of about 14inches height and then down to the exhaust outlet. Exhaust throughull is something like 5 inches above water with a flap on it.

Not sure if this can result in engine water ingress from exhaust but can be a thing to check.

L
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Old 07-10-2018, 02:13 PM   #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by psneeld View Post
Here's a tidbit from an engine guy.....

"#63 "The picture below is oil on the dipstick after second change and engine run:"

Still looks dodgy to me. I suggest he looks up "crackle test" on Google and test in a frying pan over his home stove. He may be surprised."
This is a very good suggestion, thank you very much.

L
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