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Old 12-18-2010, 01:27 AM   #1
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Helmsman's layout

How should the controls like throttle, gear shift, bow thruster, gauges, navigational instruments like radar and GPS, radio,*horn control, etc. be best laid out?* I'll start with saying I'd want the compass to be in line with the wheel and on top of the panel, just below eye level.* Somebody's other Coot:

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Old 12-18-2010, 05:55 AM   #2
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RE: Helmsman's layout

Most of us aren't privileged to have the*pleasure of building our own boat like you are doing.**We mostly*have to play with what we are dealt.* On my boat decisions like where the engine controls and instruments are placed were made thirty years ago by the original designer.

That said I have relocated some equipment over the years.* I like having the radar convenient to my co-pilot for her use when we are running in the fog.* The chart plotter (PC screen in my case) should be front and center as should the compass.* Autopilot controls need to be close at hand as should wiper controls and a thruster stick (if you have one).* Available real estate for navigation is a major factor on our boat...the helm area is pretty limited.
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Old 12-18-2010, 07:09 AM   #3
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RE: Helmsman's layout

Not sure about the popularity of the overhead radio, but it seems true that if you are standing at the helm, reaching within the periphery of site takes less attention than looking down, but it's hardly an advantage if your sitting. *Anyway, here's a shot of my helm layout. *Eventually, I hope to combine the electronics into one, or perhaps two screens max.
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Old 12-18-2010, 08:34 AM   #4
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Helmsman's layout

I would prefer the compass, electronic chart, main engine gauges, auto pilot and rudder indicator under the main engine gauges in line with the helm,* The throttles on the starboard side and the bow thruster on the port side of the ain engine gauges.* The transmission and gen set on each side of the main engine gauges.* The depth and radar on each side of the electronic chart because in the fog you are running on instruments so they should be in front of the helm next to each other.* Two VHF directly over head with the GPS and weather on each side. *The*other gauges*are*wher the fit*

I want*things that is used most of the time directly in front and/or within easy reach.* The biggest change I might*make is the bow thruster controls are on the starboards side next to the throttle, but the prop walk is to port, so I usually dock on the port side.* About 10 years ago I did rewire the helm and move most of the gauges and instruments around. *I would have moved the bow thrust but the cable was not long enough, and I had a big enough mess on my handles.*

I prefer old analog*over digital/electronics.* Glass helms sure*look impressive but?*****

*


-- Edited by Phil Fill on Saturday 18th of December 2010 09:35:56 AM
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Old 12-18-2010, 09:03 AM   #5
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Helmsman's layout

Mark, there will be alot opinions on this one.* Here's mine.* I like all my navigation instruments (plotter, radar, and compass) above the other insturments just below my line of sight.* I think that it is much easier to shift from viewing the electronic world to the real world outside the windoo.* My radar and plotter are linked to the depth finder and display the depth right on the screen.* The radar at* left to make it easier for a second person to observe.* Autopilot and rudder indicator are just below.* Then the instrument gauges along with the thruster control and remote controlled search light.* One radio is mounted above, but also has a remote mike at the helm.* Don't forget the fans in the upper corners for cooling and defogging (if you do not have defoggers).* Throttles right------gears left.

I have a center console fishing boat.* All electronics are mounted up in a box overhead.* It works for this use, but I would find it unhandy and tiring to be looking up so much in a cruising situation.* Of course*engine and high water alarms are very important.

*

-- Edited by Moonstruck on Saturday 18th of December 2010 10:31:29 AM
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Old 12-18-2010, 09:13 AM   #6
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RE: Helmsman's layout

I would use a single lever for shift and throttle , and have it where it can be reached inside or outside , so you can dock single handed. With no wing bridge.

The wheel should be reachable too from the doorway .

Engine instruments would ALL be Murphy Switchgage in my selected ranges with alarmstats.

These are mechanical so nothing is lost after a thunder storm or from a bad fuse.

They hardly have to be front and center , as they will TELL you when to take a look.

I would not bother with the usual 22 inch master display of GPS, autopilot, radar and the rest , but install a good grade of lap top for all those toys to talk to. Easier to discard ,,,or have a working backup for.Or simply use 2 at a time to magnify whatever.

While a fine grand compass might look great for most electronicified boats, its just a backup.

Look at any new flying bus, the needle ball and compass and speed gauge are still there but in a far out of the way place , only used 2X a year in the Box playing "you bet your job.

I would go with a really high quality hand bearing compass , simply dropped in a holder , as it is the best way to decide if you and the Esso Maru will be in close quarters.

To me spending extra for a better base engine , and commercial duty tranny (not yachttie crap) is more valuable than instant readout of the stern bearing or maceriator pump temperature.
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Old 12-18-2010, 09:55 AM   #7
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RE: Helmsman's layout

Quote:
Moonstruck wrote:"........* I like all my navigation instruments (plotter, radar, and compass) above the other instruments just below my line of sight.* I think that it is much easier to shift from viewing the electronic world to the real world ..."
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I couldn't agree more....While hanging the VHF up above has been used for many years, I like my VHF where it's easiest to use without reaching. (Mine is just to the right of the throttle/shifter control.) Also, having the ship's compass and engine instruments in my sight line is helpful. Moonstruck's comment about having the Nav screens (plotter, radar) directly in front of me is preferable for the reasons he gave. My MFD is slightly left of my line of site but I inherited that location and will live with it.
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Old 12-18-2010, 10:55 AM   #8
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RE: Helmsman's layout

Quote:
Old Stone wrote:

Interesting in multiple comments (in various threads) that so many Skippers make travelling in fog an effort between both Skipper and Admiral. Nice to see that.

Agreed with Steven that most of us have to use what is already in the vessel, but the only thing I change right away (and have never liked) is overhead radios. They seem to be preferred by many, but is there a reason why ? (am asking anyone out there) To me, that overhead cord dangling is a nuisance. Also, being right handed, I prefer the mike on my left. Using it seems easier that way, and obviously, if I am using throttle and transmissions with both hands, I am not using the radio at the same time.
We have two radios at our helm, and placing the second one overhead was simply a matter of space utilization. The only other option was to go so far to my left that it would have been awkward to reach. Yes, having the cord hanging down can be a nuisance, but I have learned to deal with it by routing it out of the way. It is not my primary radio, so that works fine.

*
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Old 12-18-2010, 11:44 AM   #9
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RE: Helmsman's layout

I've posted this photo before, but here's our layout. The instrument console and the very clever retractable radar mount in the overhead were installed by previous owners.

We really like the overhead radar mount for several reasons. One, it puts the radar/plotter display only a foot or two from our eyes so we can readily see small details on the screen. Two, it gets the unit totally out of the way when we don't need it.* And three, it makes the connection to a radar antenna very easy since nothing has to be run down to a display on the main instrument panel.

For the other electronics--- radios, depth/speed/time, hailer, etc., I agree with Walt and Carey that if they can be mounted below the helmsman's line of sight I feel that's a better position.

When we purchased the boat in 1998 it had a Raytheon 2600 radar on the retractable mount, the Loran-C in the lower panel along with old Cybernet radios and hailer/intercom. The center tank fuel gauge and the multi-function depth/speed/time display are also in the lower panel. We kept the Loran-C and added the large Echotec GPS plotter on top of the console. Since then we have changed the radio, the hailer/intercom, and installed a Fururno NavNet VX2 in place of the old Raytheon. Also we have recently replaced the Icom radio in the photo with a newer model.

Our boat is a twin, obviously, with dual lever controls which were standard on GBs until very recently. I like dual lever controls but we've run boats with single lever controls (our Arima, for example, and some of the narrowboats we've hired in England) and I like them, too, so I have no preference. Whatever the boat has works for me.

I do prefer the older GB layout with the throttles to port and the shifters to starboard. This was reversed sometime in the later 70s or early 80s. What I prefer about the old layout is that with the shifters to starboard, I can be manipulating them while standing in the doorway with a view fore and aft along the deck during a docking if we are docking on that side. With the shifters to port, you can't do this.
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Old 12-18-2010, 12:44 PM   #10
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RE: Helmsman's layout

Interesting question. Everyone will have their own opinion on the best layout.

This reminds me of the research Airbus did before they finalized the cockpit layout on their narrow body planes. Rumor has it they went to Porsche. Don't know why they considered Porsche to have any expertise in this area, but they did a fine job, in fact it was so good they incorporated the design in all their planes both 2 and 4 engine including the wide bodies. It was an excellent marketing tool too because pilot training between airbus aircraft is very much reduced. Not real crazy about their fly by wire though. Boeing did the same with their 757 and 767.

My guess is there is a best layout for recreation boats too, but with so many manufactures trying to compete for so few dollars, not much will be done in this area.
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Old 12-18-2010, 01:08 PM   #11
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RE: Helmsman's layout

Very helpful responses!

Regarding the bow thruster control, would it be best to have it on the opposite side of the throttle/gear*selector*so they could be adjusted simultaneously, or to have them both on the right so they and the helm wheel are accessible from the outside deck via the starboard pilothouse door?

Yeah, I think it would be best if the GPS/plotter*is*to the right and radar screen on the left (when helm is on the starboard side)*of the helm wheel's centerline so radar can be more readily monitored by the "2nd officer" and to have horn controls on the left too.* Also, having the navigational*instruments immediately below the horizon so*they can be better monitored while visually*piloting the boat, with gauges and such located between wheel and navigational devices.
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Old 12-18-2010, 01:18 PM   #12
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RE: Helmsman's layout

Quote:
timjet wrote:

Not real crazy about their fly by wire though.

My guess is there is a best layout for recreation boats too, but with so many manufactures trying to compete for so few dollars, not much will be done in this area.

Airbus' fly-by-wire system is just fine.* It's no different in general than the fly-by-wire system on the 777 and 787.* Fly-by-wire is fly-by-wire.* It's just a method of operating the control surface actuators where electrical signals down wires replace push-pull cables.

The difference between Airbus and Boeing is not their fly-by-wire systems but their flight control and fliight management philosophies.* This has nothing to do with fly-by-wire itself--- you can put Airbus' flight control philosophy into a fly-by-cable airplane if you want to and you can put Boeing's flight control philosophy into a fly-by-wire plane if you want to (which we did with the 77 and 87).

What sets Airbus and Boeing apart is the way their flight control and flight management computer programs are written and the operational philosophies behind them.* The general public--- aided by the media which is basically clueless when it comes to aviation--- have glommed onto fly-by-wire as being the big difference between Boeing and Airbus.* It's not.* Today we both use fly-by-wire control systems, but the control and management philosophies are still just as different as they were before.

As to boat control consoles, it would be impossible to create a "perfect" layout because every boat buyer has a different idea of what that is.* Some people like overhead instruments, radios, etc.* Some prefer lower mount instruments and radios.* And the configuration of the helm stations dictate where stuff has to be mounted.

Aviation developed the so-called "T" configuration of flight instruments because it was determined that having a common scan for pilots, particularly those flying on instruments, was a good idea, particularly from a safety aspect.* The new generations of flight deck displays are way different than the old analog instruments but there are still hold-overs from the old "T" layout, and the position of data on the modern displays is still common between airplane types and manufacturers.

But there are not the same compelling safety reasons to have commonality in boats, so their consoles often become more of a design element than a functional element.* In this respect, boat panels are much more like automotive panels where design aesthetics often play a larger role than practicality.

*
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Old 12-18-2010, 01:48 PM   #13
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Helmsman's layout

Quote:
Marin wrote:

*
The difference between Airbus and Boeing is not their fly-by-wire systems but their flight control and fliight management philosophies.*

What sets Airbus and Boeing apart is the way their flight control and flight management computer programs are written and the operational philosophies behind them.*

boat panels are much more like automotive panels where design aesthetics often play a larger role than practicality.
Exactly right. It's what I meant you just took it to the next level. Hardware is the same or works the same, software reflects the philosophies of the company that developed it.

Europeans have been this way for some time. I remember on the Fokker F-100 that max throttle position gave the pilot* 100% N1. The B 737 JT8D's at max throttle gave the pilot everything the engine had. Fokker's thinking is that you won't hurt the engine by pushing the throttle full fwd because 100% is all you're going to get even though more power may be available, while Boeing's thinking was that if the pilot wants all the power available then give it to him even though it may stress the engine. I was thankful for this thinking in a wind shear situation about 20 years ago.

I believe there is one best way or nearly one best way to set up a helm, but as you say the research ain't gonna happen when aesthetics sells over practicality.




-- Edited by timjet on Saturday 18th of December 2010 02:50:40 PM
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Old 12-18-2010, 09:52 PM   #14
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RE: Helmsman's layout

It is pretty much a microcosm of their society...."protect them from themselves"....whereas Boeing(and American society) believes we have a right to do what we want(even engage in harmful behavior as long as it doesn't harm anyone else). Airbus completely prohibits a pilot form going past 60 degrees of pitch or bank...Period. Boeing puts a detent in there that warns you that you are going past 60 degrees and also increases the effort to go past it, but still, in the end, allows you to do whatever you want(need to do).

Anyway, back on topic. One thing I always thought was cool about some of the old Cris Crafts was the way their power "quadrant" was set up on twin engine boats. The had the power levers matched up in the middle(like an airplane) with the respective transmission shifters on the outside of the quadrant. Obviously this does require both hands to shift both gears since they are so "far" apart, but it also emphasizes which way the boat is going...ie it requires the driver to make a more concentrated effort....if that makes any sense....you are less likely to get confused I guess is all I am trying to say. It even forces your body into the motion of where the boat is going.....ie if you want to go to the right.....the left shifter goes forward and the right one goes aft....and since your hands are that far apart(shoulder width) your body goes in that same direction.

Anyway, I always thought it made a lot of sense.
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Old 12-19-2010, 05:49 AM   #15
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RE: Helmsman's layout

It is pretty much a microcosm of their society...."protect them from themselves"....whereas Boeing(and American society) believes we have a right to do what we want(even engage in harmful behavior as long as it doesn't harm anyone else). Airbus completely prohibits a pilot form going past 60 degrees of pitch or bank...Period. Boeing puts a detent in there that warns you that you are going past 60 degrees and also increases the effort to go past it, but still, in the end, allows you to do whatever you want(need to do).

I see the concept differently ,

Boeing still (so far ) expects trained Pilots to be flying their machinery.

Air Bust has accepted the fact that their left seat equipment operator may be there because he is the 3rd son of the 4th wife of the 3rd Minister of Kerosene.

So if the seat warmer has never seen 45deg of bank , why have a machine that will go past 60deg? Sadly the concept kills real pilots , if they forget it was not made to be flown, simply operated.

My first Porsche 1954 356A Normal had no factory radio option,

Porsche drivers drive!

Sadly Porsche was not able to assist Harley D , even with a $10,000,000 contract to improve the performance or reliability of the HD line.

So they remain as Jewelry , not Motorcycles.

But as a first boat panel attempt will be just that , it might make sense to have it 1/2 in painted ply so it cam be modified , tweaked and tossed out 5 or 10 times with no real cost.

Bill Garden might get it right the "first" time , but Charlie Chan may not .
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Old 12-19-2010, 07:54 AM   #16
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Helmsman's layout

I would prefer the bow thruster controls be on the side of the boats prop walk as that is the side you will tend to deck and maneuver.* The Eagle is to port but the controls are on the starboard side on the other side of the pilot house.*

10+ years ago I took out some of the older electronic, radar/lenar/VHF, as they dated the boat, so rewired and organized then helm to my liking.* The only thing I did not move was the bow thruster control, but I wish I had.**To cover the wires around the windows, used brass hollow hand rails to match the new lights and decor.* Turned out better than I had hoped and everything worked.*


-- Edited by Phil Fill on Sunday 19th of December 2010 08:38:31 PM
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Old 12-19-2010, 02:30 PM   #17
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RE: Helmsman's layout

Here are some shots from the early design stages of the cockpit of a high speed SAR craft.*Skipper's position*will be close to the center, slightly to port.*Just below eye level there will be 3 daylight viewable 19" screens for radar, industrial PC for charts, sounder, aft deck camera, IR camera and Internet connected PC.*
Wheel steering will probably be replaced by a "fly-by-wire" joystick steering system controlling engines and jets (water jets that is). Water jet controls will also be made redundant by this system (Kobelt controls in center console). Lesser used instruments will be located overhead.
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Old 12-19-2010, 05:24 PM   #18
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RE: Helmsman's layout

I like moonstruck's stuff. Don't like Marin's up in the clouds GPS at all. If I buy a boat like that it's going to get moved pronto * *..unless it's radar. I like mine just the way they are and they are there because I put them there * * *...except the reversed throttle and shift control. I didn't know it was reversed as this is the first boat I've had w separate shift and gear controls. I wish I'd known they were reversed as I'm used to them now. I'll be smashing into everything when and if I get a new boat. DANG. We almost never use the radar so it's not really important where it is but all of the other instruments should be right above the helm and your hands. I don't mount instruments above the line of sight to the water when seated. On most of my boats I remove the bow rail as I don't like that in my view either. I like the radio to my left but not the attitude of the screen and buttons. Another thing I like is big screens and no multi-function displays. I don't like wood spoked helms. Single lever engine/gear control is great * *IF it works well and Iv'e only had one that did. Most take half the swinging room just to select the gear so the throttling function gets seriously short changed. Then it seems only a small part of that actually gets used. Usually you get big changes in power w very little changes in lever position. Don't like. The single lever I liked was on a 1970s Johnson OB. It shifted electrically so only a small movement was required to close a micro switch and it*was in gear.
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Old 12-19-2010, 05:30 PM   #19
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RE: Helmsman's layout

More thoughts....

My preference is for the the navigation instruments to be as front and centre as possible, so that as has been stated earlier, the visual shift from outside/inside/outside is minimized. This would mean, for me, that the engine instruments would be in the overhead panel along with the radios. (Creating a challenge for the bifocals mind you!)
In days gone by I would have definitely put the compass in the aforementioned front and centre spot but nowadays it is normally strictly a backup so I'd find a more out of the way spot for it. I like FF's idea of a handheld located close by.
I used to be a fan of the single throttle/clutch lever, but my current boat has separate levers and I've come to prefer them. Since all of my dock manoevering is done at idle speed I have perfect control via slipping in and out of gear. A previous single lever setup often caused me to over speed when switching back and forth between forward and reverse.
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Old 12-19-2010, 07:16 PM   #20
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RE: Helmsman's layout

Something to consider is the sun shining on screens. The sun shining through the port windows hits the fishfinder, usuallly when I am looking for snapper on the bottom. This would be the first, and probably only, thing I would change.
*
Thruster control, anchor winch, wheel, throttle and joystick steering on left arm of helm chair (leaving right hand to work*throttle/gear lever)*all work well. Radios overhead also works well as they use less valuable real estate.

Pic doesn't show very well, but colour sounder and radar are mounted in console to stbd and angled to line of sight.
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