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Old 07-30-2014, 06:34 PM   #41
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Like I tried to say -- by starting small and working your way up in order to show experience with something not too much smaller.

As for corporate owners, I bet their policies describe who can and cannot run the boat. Mine does -- if its not me at the helm (or at least on board) then it must be someone approved in advance by the insurer.
exactly.....
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Old 07-30-2014, 06:39 PM   #42
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Wow. I must have been too "clueless" to realize how talented these Sea Ray drivers are required to be! Still, I invite you to come on down here and see for yourself how the average Sea Ray driver behaves on the Florida waterways. Sea Ray might be "...one of America's top boating lines...", but here, every young "professional" with his first real money races out and buys the absolute biggest Sea Ray he can afford (with IPS - so no need to even learn how to dock it properly), and then gets little or no training (which is what this thread was about anyway) before he terrorizes the waterways. So, yeah, flame away. I never made this a personal attack against you - but you seem to have no problem attacking me personally. So I guess you win. What a guy.
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Old 07-30-2014, 06:47 PM   #43
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Wow. I must have been too "clueless" to realize how talented these Sea Ray drivers are required to be! Still, I invite you to come on down here and see for yourself how the average Sea Ray driver behaves on the Florida waterways. Sea Ray might be "...one of America's top boating lines...", but here, every young "professional" with his first real money races out and buys the absolute biggest Sea Ray he can afford (with IPS - so no need to even learn how to dock it properly), and then gets little or no training (which is what this thread was about anyway) before he terrorizes the waterways. So, yeah, flame away. I never made this a personal attack against you - but you seem to have no problem attacking me personally. So I guess you win. What a guy.
20 posts and your are the one in the "poking fun" ... "attack" mode.

I pilot my trawler to Florida every winter and I know who are boaters and who aren't.

Was stationed in Fla 3 times.

Plus you think Fla is any diff than any where's else?

Again...labeling any group of boaters even if somewhat a stereotype just places the stereotype right back on the originator.
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Old 07-30-2014, 06:51 PM   #44
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Yep, number of posts certainly equates to how much one knows. Or does it equate to how much one likes to hear oneself pontificate?
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Old 07-30-2014, 06:55 PM   #45
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I am amazed all you guys can get insurance for anything bigger than a trailer boat without having demonstrated history of having piloted something close to the size of your new boat. ...
Maybe obtaining insurance for my current 14-ton boat was made easier by paying insurance premiums on a 24-foot trailered sailboat for 20 years without an insurance claim.
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Old 07-30-2014, 06:55 PM   #46
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"The most important thing I learned....... was an increased ability to judge my own ability against the conditions".

Absolutely spot on, Ghost.


Another source of boat-specific training might be the Previous Owner.

With my current boat, I made it a contracted condition of sale that after purchase, he spend a certain number of days at sea going through the many one-off systems with me.

He seemed to enjoy it, and even roped in another previous owner for more explanation of their quite eccentric installations.

I'm lucky enough to have gotten away with the 'have a go' approach to my life aquatic, and have (mostly) enjoyed making my own mistakes.

The best official training course I ever did was the RYA Sea Survival Certificate.
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Old 07-30-2014, 07:08 PM   #47
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Yep, number of posts certainly equates to how much one knows. Or does it equate to how much one likes to hear oneself pontificate?

It says to me when I come to a new place that I should be careful of sarcasm and poking fun till the gang get's to know me...but then again my kids know that too....

I also worked for 3 years at a Sea Ray dealership as the primary delivery captain...most of them were pretty nice, and no where as clueless as some would have you think.

Again...pontificate.????..I'm not the one slamming Navy Ensigns and Sea Ray owners based on what?????

Try if you can to at least address the topic of the thread....if you can't maybe the mods can see to it.
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Old 07-30-2014, 07:10 PM   #48
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"The most important thing I learned....... was an increased ability to judge my own ability against the conditions".

Absolutely spot on, Ghost.


Another source of boat-specific training might be the Previous Owner.

With my current boat, I made it a contracted condition of sale that after purchase, he spend a certain number of days at sea going through the many one-off systems with me.

He seemed to enjoy it, and even roped in another previous owner for more explanation of their quite eccentric installations.

I'm lucky enough to have gotten away with the 'have a go' approach to my life aquatic, and have (mostly) enjoyed making my own mistakes.

The best official training course I ever did was the RYA Sea Survival Certificate.


Pretty cool...can you please elaborate a bit on what is covered in that certification!
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Old 07-30-2014, 07:35 PM   #49
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You can google to get the details of the syllabus, but it includes safety gear and procedures signaling, plus plenty of practical in-the-water stuff like crew co-ordination, launching, boarding, and righting liferafts, helicopter rescue procedures, hypothermia etc.

You get a certificate which has to be kept up to date and is required here for category 1 ocean racing following the Sydney to Hobart tragedy.

My main takeout was that no matter what style of floating about you do, if you have thought through a procedure for emergencies, and you have even practiced it, you are way ahead of the game if/when the unexpected happens.
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Old 07-30-2014, 07:45 PM   #50
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You can google to get the details of the syllabus, but it includes safety gear and procedures signaling, plus plenty of practical in-the-water stuff like crew co-ordination, launching, boarding, and righting liferafts, helicopter rescue procedures, hypothermia etc.

You get a certificate which has to be kept up to date and is required here for category 1 ocean racing following the Sydney to Hobart tragedy.

My main takeout was that no matter what style of floating about you do, if you have thought through a procedure for emergencies, and you have even practiced it, you are way ahead of the game if/when the unexpected happens.
Great!

Exactly what many cruisers need...the plan for survival (and I'm not talking US coastal/ICW as that's a separate plan of attack)...starts with boat, gear, probability of needing true survival tactics, plan to implement, signaling, backups, secondary plan then full blown 7 (or so as taught) the steps of survival.

Survival is much more complicated than people think...just like safety...a simple term for a complex issue that has grown from something as simple as PPE all the way to full blown Operational Risk Management.
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Old 07-30-2014, 08:13 PM   #51
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Anyone taking any advanced training such as...survival, maintenance, advanced manual navigation??????
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What they most commonly failed on was the Charting portion of the test (70% required to pass).

Most recreational boaters really do not know how to read and use paper charts (or do a set and drift calculation).

Yeah, I was lucky enough to get military training in air navigation, all manual at the time... and while slightly different, it was close enough to give me a head-start on maritime nav.

Lots of other training over time, but things I find most useful are often centered on fixing stuff. The diesel courses, for example...

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Old 07-30-2014, 09:06 PM   #52
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Yeah, I was lucky enough to get military training in air navigation, all manual at the time... and while slightly different, it was close enough to give me a head-start on maritime nav.

Lots of other training over time, but things I find most useful are often centered on fixing stuff. The diesel courses, for example...

-Chris
I still use my Jeppesen circular slide rule air computer to do time/distance a lot of times..

It's actually quicker than looking for the calculator and punching in the numbers...because my cruise is so consistent..can almost leave t set up or it's only a slight adjustment.
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Old 07-30-2014, 11:28 PM   #53
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Plus you think Fla is any diff than any where's else?

Well we do have more registered boats than almost any other state. So that bumps the odds up a bit in all categories.
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Old 07-31-2014, 09:38 AM   #54
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Not boasting but since you brought it up:

- Bacardi advanced cocktail mixing for the discriminating yachtsman.(Daily refresher courses at Bernies Beach Bar & Crabshack)
- Murphy's Law, Maritime version. (still in training)
- Spending like a drunken sailor - on a limitless budget. (co-sponsered by West Marine & the MOAA)
- Carefree boat investment & maintenance (courses through Scru,Gouge & Pillage Bankruptcy Trustees) NOTE: Prerequisite - Loosing your shirt with grace and dignity.
- Learning to love barnacles (free monthly hands on course at my boat, scraper provided)
- Everything you need to know about boats, School Of Hard Knocks, (lifetime enrollment)
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Old 07-31-2014, 10:10 AM   #55
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Like I tried to say -- by starting small and working your way up in order to show experience with something not too much smaller.

As for corporate owners, I bet their policies describe who can and cannot run the boat. Mine does -- if its not me at the helm (or at least on board) then it must be someone approved in advance by the insurer.
If that's the case, I think your insurance policy is the exception, not the norm. My policy does not mention who can or cannot operate the boat. I'll bet if you ask Tom, Dick and Harry they will give the same answer.

Company owned - same thing. We're talking about boats not ships here.
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Old 07-31-2014, 10:54 AM   #56
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Not boasting but since you brought it up:

- Bacardi advanced cocktail mixing for the discriminating yachtsman.(Daily refresher courses at Bernies Beach Bar & Crabshack)
- Murphy's Law, Maritime version. (still in training)
- Spending like a drunken sailor - on a limitless budget. (co-sponsered by West Marine & the MOAA)
- Carefree boat investment & maintenance (courses through Scru,Gouge & Pillage Bankruptcy Trustees) NOTE: Prerequisite - Loosing your shirt with grace and dignity.
- Learning to love barnacles (free monthly hands on course at my boat, scraper provided)
- Everything you need to know about boats, School Of Hard Knocks, (lifetime enrollment)
Hey, we belong to many of the same alumni associations!
It's those non-stop continuing education requirements they all have....
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Old 08-02-2014, 03:30 PM   #57
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Not sure where to start so first our training and experience prior to July, 2012. It was all lake boating except for a couple of fishing charters we might have gone on. The most recent was all on a 30' Cobalt with Twin 430 HP Volvo Gas Engines. I had just over 1000 days of "seatime" and she had just over 400 days. None of our boating really applicable to what we do now, other than just basic handling.

We moved to Ft. Lauderdale We found a captain, well actually two as husband and wife team prior to buying a boat. So we were prepared for them to train us. We also started classes.

So as to the formal training.

-11 Days of training for Captain's License, Master 100 ton which included navigation, tidal calculations, international and inland rules of the road, coastal pilotage, meteorology, anchoring and mooring, marlinespike, docking and undocking, buoyage systems, safety, voyage and passage planning, general ship knowledge regulations, stability and vessel construction, and seamanship.
-5 Day 200 Ton upgrade included Advanced Navigation Tides, Currents, Safety Seamanship, General ship knowledge, Stability & Construction
-Some day we'll take the 15 day upgrade for 500 etc. even if we never upgrade licenses.
-Advanced Fire Fighting
-FCC Marine Radio Operator
-Medical First Aid Care Provider, 3 Days, and Medical Person in Charge, 7 Days

We have no imperative need for the licensing but we just want to learn as much as possible. Many other courses on the horizon in future years.

Hands on Training started in 2012. For first several months we only operated boats while under the supervision of a licensed captain. They didn't just let us observe or take it easy on us. We had to do all the basic operating and they also subjected us to rough conditions where they trained us on handling those situations. They were tough teachers as we'd said we wanted. We have continued over the two years to cruise the East Coast, Gulf of Mexico, Alaska and the PNW, and the Bahamas. Far more weighted toward outside than the ICW. While we've taken short trips to West Palm, even as far north as Daytona and south to Miami and even Key West alone, the majority of our boating to date has been with one or both of them aboard and they have continued to instruct in new situations.

In the 22 months since starting hands on, we have cruised a total of 30,000 nm and I'd estimate 24,000 of that under Captain supervision and training. We have added approximately 380 days of seatime and that is with a very strict accounting, not the loose accounting of days at anchor or dock work some do.

When we decided to get into coastal and off shore boating, we both wanted to learn and be as skilled as we could. To us it's not about the licenses (although both now 200 Ton Near Coastal) but it's a pursuit of knowledge. We pursue that just as we did in our professions prior to retirement. We find it interesting and challenging and we're just not wanting to be along for the ride, but to learn and do. If we hit 10' waves we don't suddenly turn the boat over to the Captains but they train us on how to handle the situation. I remember the first time in the Gulf when we hit 6-8' and they worked us on them for hours with them hitting us from all different directions so we'd have the experience.

We have many more courses in mind as we'll probably take 3 or 4 per year when possible. Some of the courses like the medical we've really enjoyed. The fire fighting was not a fun course at all but worth doing. Celestial navigation is one that we have little interest in but feel like it's one we just should do. Diesel, we may yet give in and take a course but we'll never work on our own engines.

Now we recognize few have the time we do and most don't want to spend the time being taught or trained.

But what we do feel is that both formal courses and hands-on training have their place. Even if it's just a captain for your first three days it can be very helpful. But don't let them train you by just showing you. Have them make you do it under their supervision so they can teach you more. And don't just do the easy things. Practice going in and out of inlets and get comfortable with things that you're not at first.

And other than boating I had before my wife and I married, we've done it all together. Interchangeable too. Equal time at the helm, navigating, checking the ER, changing fuel filters.
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Old 08-02-2014, 03:36 PM   #58
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If that's the case, I think your insurance policy is the exception, not the norm. My policy does not mention who can or cannot operate the boat. I'll bet if you ask Tom, Dick and Harry they will give the same answer.

Company owned - same thing. We're talking about boats not ships here.
Well, since neither of us is named Tom, Dick or Harry then guess we don't fit your statement. However, our insurer was definitely interested in who would be operating the boats. Ours is not 100% restricted but it does note those who generally will be either operating or at least on board and their level of training and experience and licensing.

I think this varies by insurer, size of boat, and level of insurance sought. We sought the fewest limitations possible on our policy. We also are insured with a marine insurer and not under a boat policy of a multiple line insurer more into cars and houses.
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Old 08-02-2014, 04:24 PM   #59
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So as to the formal training.

-11 Days of training for Captain's License, Master 100 ton which included navigation, tidal calculations, international and inland rules of the road, coastal pilotage, meteorology, anchoring and mooring, marlinespike, docking and undocking, buoyage systems, safety, voyage and passage planning, general ship knowledge regulations, stability and vessel construction, and seamanship.
-5 Day 200 Ton upgrade included Advanced Navigation Tides, Currents, Safety Seamanship, General ship knowledge, Stability & Construction
-Some day we'll take the 15 day upgrade for 500 etc. even if we never upgrade licenses.
-Advanced Fire Fighting
-FCC Marine Radio Operator
-Medical First Aid Care Provider, 3 Days, and Medical Person in Charge, 7 Days

We have no imperative need for the licensing but we just want to learn as much as possible. Many other courses on the horizon in future years.
How are you/will you managing to meet the % of seatime/tonnage requirements for the larger licenses?
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Old 08-02-2014, 05:36 PM   #60
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How are you/will you managing to meet the % of seatime/tonnage requirements for the larger licenses?
Larger boats. We've done a lot of chartering while waiting for our own boats. Higher than 200 T is not likely although as the rules change and evolve, who knows. The largest we've operated to date was 130' and 333 ITC. I don't recall it's US GT measurement off the top of my head.

And our mileage I mentioned has been possible only because some of it on faster boats.

In the last two years we've actually operated 11 or 12 total boats, 7 or 8 unique, as some of them were identical, just different charters. Call it an immersion course, like language immersion.

Still by heart and soul we're Trawler types as we love exploring different places. We just don't necessarily do it at Trawler speeds.

I do want to point out though that the licenses aren't really important in the picture, it's just we want to gain the knowledge and experience. I sure hope I never find myself using anything we learned in a fire fighting course and the same with the medical courses. On the other hand, the medical is likely. And prior to this, I'd never even taken a first aid course. Things like celestial navigation sound strange to some. But then if you've grown up navigating you probably learned many things we didn't. We've never been on a boat without full instruments and electronics. So, we have to learn a bit in reverse.

We love it all. Well, just don't ever want to work as much as sailors have to. Love being on a sailboat but someone else must do the hard work.
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