Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
 
Old 02-05-2016, 11:56 AM   #41
Guru
 
HeadMistress's Avatar


 
City: AR
Country: USA
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 934
Quote:
Originally Posted by scary View Post
ever wounder why your wife is afraid to leave the dock. No one likes to feel helpless, encourage your wife to handle the boat and feel confident that she understands the basic safety systems, especially the vfh, and fire suppression. The life you safe may be yours.
AMEN!

However, husbands are rarely the best "wife instructors"...they tend to focus more on protecting their precious boat than patient teaching, often turning their wives into nervous wrecks who want nothing to do with handling the boat. Best that she get instruction from a "neutral party, a friend--better yet another woman. Investigate what opportunites are available at your next rendezvous or even locally.
__________________
Advertisement

__________________
2016 Peggie Hall
Specializing in marine sanitation since '87.
Author "The NEW Get Rid of Boat Odors"
HeadMistress is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-05-2016, 01:07 PM   #42
Scraping Paint
 
City: -
Country: -
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 13,748
Quote:
Originally Posted by psneeld View Post
Not sure if everyone is on the same sheet of musing...there's "walking" sideways and "sliding" sideways.
Correct. Walking our twin engine boat sideways is so easy we generally let our dog do it while we take in the sights. Sliding our boat straight sideways is virtually impossibble no matter what combination of thrust and rudder is used.
__________________

Marin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-05-2016, 01:44 PM   #43
Veteran Member
 
Xlantic's Avatar
 
City: Mediterranean
Country: Spain
Vessel Name: Halcyon
Vessel Model: 1973 Grand Banks 50
Join Date: Mar 2015
Posts: 90
Not sure of what the terminology is but I am referring to moving the boat sideways with little or no forward or backward movement or rotation.
Xlantic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-05-2016, 01:56 PM   #44
Guru
 
AusCan's Avatar
 
City: Adelaide
Country: Australia
Vessel Name: Kokanee
Vessel Model: Cuddles 30 Pilot House Motor Sailer
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 1,506
Walking/sliding in certainly looks impressive when done well. But wouldn't a spring line work just as well, and be faster with less risk?

signed
Envious of those who can do it well.
AusCan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-05-2016, 02:46 PM   #45
Veteran Member
 
Xlantic's Avatar
 
City: Mediterranean
Country: Spain
Vessel Name: Halcyon
Vessel Model: 1973 Grand Banks 50
Join Date: Mar 2015
Posts: 90
Quote:
Originally Posted by AusCan View Post
Walking/sliding in certainly looks impressive when done well. But wouldn't a spring line work just as well, and be faster with less risk?

signed
Envious of those who can do it well.
I have occasionally been in situations where using a backward-leading spring from the bow in order to swing-out the stern did would not have worked.

Lats summer I was tied side-to a concrete pier in Zakinthos, Greece. After I tied-up a "megayacht" tied up behind me Med-style (perpendicular to the pier) as shown in the photo below. In the late afternoon a thunderstorm several miles away started bringing in a strong surge into the "port". And then the wind picked up pushing the boat against the pier, must have been a force 4. At this point the local boats started pulling away from the pier and anchoring in a protected area outside the port.

So with wind and the surge and the weather rapidly deteriorating we had to leave fast. But with the megayacht behind us and the concaveness of the pier we could not simply swing out the stern and reverse out as described by Marin and other. So I resorted to the sideways walk/slide by turning the wheel into the pier and using engines to swing the bow away from the pier. I had to use plenty of power but the boat was able to overcome the breeze and pull away more or less perpendicular to the pier, quite remarkable given the windage of my GB50.

The previous summer I was tied Med-style in a port in Montenegro (anchor off the bow and stern lines to the pier). We had a boat almost twice our length to one side and a strong breeze from the other side, pushing us into the long yacht. Remember we don't have the benefit pylons between boats in Mediterranean marinas and ports. But, by using the technique described, wheel towards the long yacht with inboard engine forward and outboard engine reversed, we were able to pull away and move forward without touching the neighbouring boat.

As mentioned, this technique works in some boats and not in others. And in some it works in reverse!

Luckily it works in my GB50 while it did not work in previous boat, a GB42.

I would prefer to have a bow-thruster but there are so many things on the list ...
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	DSC_0122.jpg
Views:	60
Size:	106.9 KB
ID:	48588  
Xlantic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-05-2016, 03:03 PM   #46
Guru
 
psneeld's Avatar
 
City: Avalon, NJ
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Freedom
Vessel Model: Albin 40
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 13,311
Yet I have witnessed plenty of situations where even a twin couldn't get away from the dock without a spring line.


If the after bow spring isn't best...sometimes a forward quarter spring is the ticket.


A properly done spring with strong enough line and cleats can allow a vessel to use a huge amount of thrust and only advance the amount of stretch in the line which can vary.


After years of towing...learning that a line attached to a vessel can allow for so much better control...even when the vessel has no engine capability at all.
psneeld is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-05-2016, 03:10 PM   #47
Veteran Member
 
Clown One's Avatar
 
City: San Francisco Bay and Delta
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Happy Clown
Vessel Model: Heritage 45 Europa
Join Date: Jan 2016
Posts: 37
I agree with pneeld. I can walk my boat sideways, bumping gears. My goal is sliding perfectly sideways, without touching anything after getting set up, like on a rail I've seen it done, in a boat like mine. I refuse to admit my buddy was (now deceased) just better than me, but...
Ted
Clown One is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-05-2016, 04:13 PM   #48
Veteran Member
 
Xlantic's Avatar
 
City: Mediterranean
Country: Spain
Vessel Name: Halcyon
Vessel Model: 1973 Grand Banks 50
Join Date: Mar 2015
Posts: 90
Quote:
Originally Posted by psneeld View Post
If the after bow spring isn't best...sometimes a forward quarter spring is the ticket.
Makes sense. If I understand this correctly, one backs out with the inboard engine in reverse and a doubled-up forward-leading spring from the forward quarter cleat?
Xlantic is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-05-2016, 06:08 PM   #49
Scraping Paint
 
City: -
Country: -
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 13,748
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xlantic View Post
Makes sense. If I understand this correctly, one backs out with the inboard engine in reverse and a doubled-up forward-leading spring from the forward quarter cleat?
We've never tried pulling back against a line leading forward. We feel we get a much quicker and more positive response and departure by holding the bow in position with the bow line and pivoting the stern out with thrust against one of the rudders.

As described earlier, this means putting the dockside prop in reverse and the outside prop in forward and putting the rudders hard over toward the dock (as though steering into it).

By doing this the thrust of the outboard prop against the hard-over rudder is assisted by the propwalk from both props turning in the same direction. (This is assuming the typical counter-rotatingl prop rotation in forward of port:counterclockwise, starboard:clockwise when viewed from behind).

However with the twin, since one prop is developing forward thrust and the other reverse thrust, the boat will tend to not move either forward or backwards as the stern is swung out. Obviously a wind or current can disrupt this.

We've used this maneuver hundreds of times to get off a dock but even though the person handling the bow line always has a big fender hung down to put between the bow and the dock if necessary, so far it never has been. The prop in reverse has always countered the prop in forward sufficiently to keep the bow from actually coming in and contacting the dock as the boat pivots its stern away from the dock.

This would not be the case in a single where the only thrust being generated is from the prop in forward acting on the rudder to swing the stern out.
Marin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-05-2016, 07:05 PM   #50
Guru
 
psneeld's Avatar
 
City: Avalon, NJ
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Freedom
Vessel Model: Albin 40
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 13,311
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xlantic View Post
Makes sense. If I understand this correctly, one backs out with the inboard engine in reverse and a doubled-up forward-leading spring from the forward quarter cleat?
I would use the outboard engine for more twist...but may depend.

The hardest thing with this, any angle puts the quarter or swim platform against the dock. You just have to adapt to that.

I use it a lot with a single and into the current with a wind pressing me to the dock. Especially if I have little room behind me.


With twins, and a lot of current...you may have to be pretty drastic with power to keep from getting impaled by the boat behind. The quarter spring makes it way less stressful.
psneeld is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-05-2016, 07:19 PM   #51
Guru
 
cappy208's Avatar
 
City: Cape Cod
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Slip Aweigh
Vessel Model: Prairie 29
Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 1,007
Look up walking using inboard turning wheels, and twisting using outboard turning wheels.

To actually "Walk" requires inboard turning wheels and plenty big rudders (and YES they have to be used to work well)

looking over several posts on this forum it is clear that many are befuddled by the 'how and why'. But it does work on inboard turning props. but has to have large rudders, and practice.



To twist well requires outboard turning wheels and rudder use is just about useless (but usually does speed up the evolution incrementally)

Two distinctly separate functions.

Some boats with inboard turning wheels can barely walk because rudder size is so small that they can't utilize the walking ability of the wheels to propel directly sideways.
cappy208 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-05-2016, 07:19 PM   #52
Scraping Paint
 
City: -
Country: -
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 13,748
Quote:
Originally Posted by psneeld View Post
The hardest thing with this, any angle puts the quarter or swim platform against the dock. You just have to adapt to that.

.
Just curious---- What's the advantage of using this method, which apparently swings the bow out while putting the stern quarter/swim step against the dock over the "keep the-bow in place, swing the stern out 45 degrees or more and back out" method?

With the stern-out method one can depart the dock even with boats hard up to the bow and stern. There is almost no lateral movement parallel to the dock at all.
Marin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-05-2016, 07:30 PM   #53
Guru
 
psneeld's Avatar
 
City: Avalon, NJ
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Freedom
Vessel Model: Albin 40
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 13,311
In a ripping current letting your bow swing out with the current then just powering against the current lets you crab straight out without getting near the boat behind you.


By backing out in a strong current and an on dock wind, you bow will swing very close to the boat behind you even if you do it well in some more extreme conditions.


I have seen many a pro capt tangle their bowsprit with the boat behind him...ugly
psneeld is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-05-2016, 07:34 PM   #54
Guru
 
cappy208's Avatar
 
City: Cape Cod
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Slip Aweigh
Vessel Model: Prairie 29
Join Date: Oct 2013
Posts: 1,007
To check out how wheel rotation affects sideways thrust, when going ahead back one wheel full for a short thrust, just so the wash is coming out the side. Or better yet, when at a rugged dock and well tied up, Go to each side quickly and watch the results. On an outboard turning wheel all the wash will come out on the side you are backing on (sometimes at about 45o angle to the hull) On an inboard wheel some of the wash will actually cross over to the other side of the boat. You see this on a single screw vessel when tied up at a dock by leaving an engine in reverse and watching which side most of the wash flows to. Or better yet, on a flat calm day, with no current when at your mooring leave the engine in reverse for 10 minutes. what happens to the boat? It tries to circle the mooring. Why? Propwalk. That is how boats 'walk' directly sideways. they use the combined thrust of both props in addition to the rudder use to slew the boat directly sideways without even shifting the engines. You find the 'sweet spot' with the rudders and leave them alone during the evolution.
cappy208 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-05-2016, 07:43 PM   #55
Scraping Paint
 
City: -
Country: -
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 13,748
Quote:
Originally Posted by psneeld View Post
In a ripping current letting your bow swing out with the current then just powering against the current lets you crab straight out without getting near the boat behind you.

Good point. I can see that. So far we've never encountered the current situation you describe at a dock but that's a smart way to do it if we do. Usually we're either in relatively benign conditions or we have a wind that's blowing us onto the dock. Thanks.
Marin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-05-2016, 07:43 PM   #56
Master and Commander
 
markpierce's Avatar
 
City: Vallejo CA
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Carquinez Coot
Vessel Model: 2011 Seahorse Marine Coot hull #6
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 9,339
Sorry, I'm only able to move sideways while moving back and forth. Moving to starboard is easier as we've a counter-clockwise propeller while going forward. The bow thruster helps immensely.
__________________
Kar-KEEN-ez Koot
markpierce is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-05-2016, 07:53 PM   #57
Scraping Paint
 
City: -
Country: -
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 13,748
Quote:
Originally Posted by cappy208 View Post
That is how boats 'walk' directly sideways. they use the combined thrust of both props in addition to the rudder use to slew the boat directly sideways without even shifting the engines. You find the 'sweet spot' with the rudders and leave them alone during the evolution.
That's a great theory and I don't doubt it works with some boats. But we've been there, done that, and got the T-shirt with that technique and it does not work with ours. Or apparently with any twin-engine GB to read the discussions and comments from GB owners here and on the GB owners forum over the years whenever this topic comes up.

The closely-spaced props and a deep keel aft combine to defeat the notion of sliding directly sideways on props and rudders alone regardless of what combination of thrust and rudder one tries.

As psneeld pointed out earlier, walking and sliding directly sideways are two different types of maneuvers. Walking our boat sideways is no problem, bow, stern, bow, stern, etc. But sliding the whole boat directly sideways aint' gonna happen.
Marin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-05-2016, 08:01 PM   #58
Master and Commander
 
markpierce's Avatar
 
City: Vallejo CA
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Carquinez Coot
Vessel Model: 2011 Seahorse Marine Coot hull #6
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 9,339
Having thrusters at both bow and stern makes moving sideways easy. I've seen it done dozens of times.

__________________
Kar-KEEN-ez Koot
markpierce is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-06-2016, 09:23 AM   #59
Guru
 
ranger42c's Avatar
 
City: Maryland
Country: USA
Vessel Model: 42' Sportfish
Join Date: Aug 2013
Posts: 2,299
Quote:
Originally Posted by psneeld View Post
I

The hardest thing with this, any angle puts the quarter or swim platform against the dock. You just have to adapt to that.



If I understand the situation being described, I suspect it might be useful to consider a forward bow spring... doubled from the offside midship cleat (ideally a cleat slightly forward of center)... while backing out.

Offside engine in and out of forward, nearside engine reverse, spring paid out as necessary. Heavy fendering to protect the bow as it swings toward the dock.

Maybe. Probably a trade-off between protecting a swim platform, and not much control of the bow while backing.

-Chris
__________________
South River, Chesapeake Bay
ranger42c is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-06-2016, 12:02 PM   #60
Guru
 
psneeld's Avatar
 
City: Avalon, NJ
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Freedom
Vessel Model: Albin 40
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 13,311
My point is...if backing away from a dock with lots of current and a wind string you against it....

You better back at full trotted, hope the props bite and don't cavirate, and pray. But I am talking currents most probably never deal with. If you can easily get 60 degrees from the dock, which I am saying in some conditions is near impossible without huge power use, then yes after bow springing works in several variations.

What I am suggesting is a ho-hum maneuver versus a panic one. It is even pretty easy single handed.
__________________

psneeld is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off





All times are GMT -5. The time now is 06:18 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0
Copyright 2006 - 2012