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Old 08-08-2013, 07:08 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by Joe Pica View Post
Hummm, Seems many there are uneducated, inexperienced opinions and conjectures ...

Better get used to that if you are going to hang around here.
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Old 08-08-2013, 09:14 AM   #22
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Hey Folks, Great Harbour, (Mirage Manufacturing) is indeed still in business after 42 years of constant operation at the same phone number! With hundreds of thousands of miles on Great Harbour Trawlers they continue to be well loved by their owners. We are constantly amazed at the misinformation and poor conjecture applied to these boats but that's the internet, I suppose. If you want the real facts talk to an owner or possibly even consider giving the factory a call. Best regards to all and smooth seas. Ken Fickett
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Old 08-08-2013, 08:59 PM   #23
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We had met a coule traveling the country both river and blue water. It was the N37 and I have to admit my suprise when yes, I asked for a tour, it is a 50 foot boat in a 37 foot hull! Amazing use if space inside. They have been out for six years at that point a few weeks ago. We are in Chattanooga TN and they were at our marina for a while, they are now on their way to MN! I told my wife that it is not the prettiest boat from the outside BUT!!!! Holy cow, the interior where you live will get your attention to say the least. We are now looking at the larger one to buy for when we hang it up and cruise. Read their website about the Fl to Bermuda then to CT run, all open ocean.

The couple we met has a blog, very well written and lots of pictures. Check it out, boats name is Young America, great people, Fred and Linda.
Young America was at our marina last week end. They were gone before I could get a chance to look at it .Very cool boat I liked what I saw from the dock.
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Old 08-09-2013, 05:54 AM   #24
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Rolling Motions?

Their website, and the endorsements on this subject thread would have you believing these vessels had a very good sea motion.

But I saw these quotes over on another forum:....
Anyone Familiar with Great Harbor Trawlers ? - Cruisers & Sailing Forums

Quote:
Originally Posted by [B
Waterwayguy] [/B]These boats were not designed for open ocean in anything other than calm conditions. The hull design and excess windage also make them sail all over the harbor in windy conditions while at anchor. With any kind of seas running they roll like a barrel even with stabilizers. The are great dockaminiums and comfortable liveaboards for marina stays. The deck layouts don't make them user friendly for coming and going from the dock.
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Originally Posted by [B
Waterwayguy] [/B]I would add that anyone considering taking one of these boats across an ocean reconsider. I would suggest this is why the manufacturer recommend it be shipped. These boats roll like a 55 gallon drum and if not heavily stabilized should not be considered for offshore use. I am not sure any kind of stabilization would be suitable for offshore heavy weather.
.....So my question to this gentleman was, have you ever been aboard one of these vessels and experienced this??

His reply, "We have a good friend with a GH and have been on board often."

Somewhat contradictory reports on this subject.
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Old 08-09-2013, 06:44 AM   #25
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Somewhat contradictory reports on this subject.
I guess I'd lean towards someone with 30k miles under the keel in one (Joe Pica) rather than someone who "knows a guy". My guess is Ken would be more than happy to provide you with other GH owners who could share their experience.
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Old 08-09-2013, 07:57 AM   #26
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Originally Posted by brian eiland View Post
Their website, and the endorsements on this subject thread would have you believing these vessels had a very good sea motion.

But I saw these quotes over on another forum:....
Anyone Familiar with Great Harbor Trawlers ? - Cruisers & Sailing Forums





.....So my question to this gentleman was, have you ever been aboard one of these vessels and experienced this??

His reply, "We have a good friend with a GH and have been on board often."

Somewhat contradictory reports on this subject.
I really don't think that everyone is on the same sheet of music when the word "seaworthy" is used anyway...

The manufacturers own BS hype states....

If the typical cruiser is coasting the shores of Florida and squalls threaten, his first instinct is not to head offshore for sea room like some old Bluenose skipper; he wants to get inside and get inside quickly. But if he's in a deep-draft boat a mile off the St. Augustine inlet, conditions might well dictate going offshore like those schooner captains of old. That's because St. Augustine is shallow, like many Atlantic Coast inlets.
And like many inlets in Baja, Mexico or reef pools of the Bahamas. Like many gunkholes in Maine, the Chesapeake Bay and the California Delta. Like the entire Intracoastal Waterway and much of the Great Circle Route. In other words, the vast majority of American cruising grounds - or great portions thereof - are in shallow water.
Consequently, the ability to seek refuge from weather is the single most important design consideration for a safe cruising boat, as defined by how the overwhelming majority of American trawler owners use their boats. When you are facing the "fight or flight" scenario as described above, the difference between 5 1/2 feet and 4 feet can make the difference between life and death.

Great Harbor Trawlers' Trawler Truths: Why shallow draft hulls are better for crusing than deep draft hulls.

Reading this along with the rest of the hype....pretty well tells me they are well made coastal cruisers that are capable of handling typical afternoon squalls but should head for shelter if the real dodo is coming because that was a major part of the design criteria.

Not sure they wallow...as I have no experience with them...but just about every slow powerboat under 50-60 feet in the world rolls like a bastid in 5 footers or more....even many with stabilizers. Just plain old physics (or whatever scientific explanation you prefer)
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Old 08-09-2013, 11:12 AM   #27
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I don't even "know a guy" .....

Experience has it's place but there are many elements of the GH design that totally defy traditional marine architecture. Much of this you just can't get around. A very wide flat bottomed boat is going to be very stiff and uncomfortable in beam seas (or waves) that have a bad match of the boats roll period. Roll wise the GH is going to assume the shape of the water under it due to it's extremely high volume chines and beam. One needs no experience on the boat to know that.

All boats rise and fall as they progress against head seas. And when the fwd end is through rising it comes DOWN ... and slams hard. That's the way of flat bottomed boats. It's an unavoidable given. All of us have been aboard pounding flat bottomed boats and KNOW this. To experience it in this particular flat bottomed boat is not necessary. I should point out though that many to even most freighter type ships are basically flat on the bottom. They "get away w that because rarely does the bottom rise up out of the water. With the GH the huge flat area of the bottom fwd coming down on many many tons of sea water coming at the boat is going to result in a very sudden impact and deceleration. A very big "BANG". Of course this is mostly not a seaworthy item unless the boat comes apart and sinks either slow or fast. And of course there is the possibility of bodily injury to those on board. It's a given though w a big wide flat bottom.

Relative to seaworthiness something not as obvious is the side of the boat just above the chines. It's a flat and nearly vertical surface the whole length of the boat. Helps w directional stability to be sure but in big waves when one gets sideways on the face of a wave the safest escape is to slide sideways down the wave. With a round bilge or a V bottom and enough deadrise the boat can move sideways quickly enough to save the day as the vertical sides of the hull will be kept high enough to avoid a capsize. But the GH seems to be designed to capsize in this way. Those extremely hard chines would dig in like goats feet, stop the bottom of the boat from moving sideways and w the steep face of the wave the GH will assume the position on the wave w the windward chine lifting strongly up and in the direction of the fast moving wave .... well you get the picture. Over she goes. This is commonly known as chine tripping and the GH is one strong candidate for doing that. Especially the tall ones w lots of windage.

Boats and ships are shaped the way they are from centuries of designing, building and running boats at sea and on the water. It's very unlikely that one can design and build a boat totally unlike all the boats built within the bounds of centuries of experience and come up with something better ..... or even good depending on how far one strays.

That said .. extremely critical as it may be I do think that the GH is a wonderful boat in fairly protected waters. Many have done blue water passages but many have gone to Alaska in kayaks and some have even rowed boats across the Atlantic.
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Old 08-09-2013, 09:43 PM   #28
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Great Harbor Trawlers & Florida Bay Coasters

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Originally Posted by Animal View Post
I guess I'd lean towards someone with 30k miles under the keel in one (Joe Pica) rather than someone who "knows a guy". My guess is Ken would be more than happy to provide you with other GH owners who could share their experience.
Well here is another owner of a GH47 first hand experience (from another forum)
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Originally Posted by timb7734 View Post
The boat above is named East Passage and has made many trips from Maine to the Bahamas. My boat has been to the Bahamas six times and from Savannah to Punta Gorda.

Yea, if you won't to cross oceans, even I would get a different boat with more draft. Where do you want to cruise? Rolls a lot less than any round bilge Chinese Grand Banks knock off, and less than the 36 GB I had before.

Every boat is a compromise, just be aware of blowhard armchair naval architects.

p.s. I also own a Florida Bay Coaster and keep it in Northern Lake Huron.

Thanks for posting that first hand account Timb.

When I first saw a pics of the Florida Bay Coasters, my immediate reaction was 'how top heavy' they appeared,...and how they must be prone to rolling excessively. Likewise when I saw the GH model of the Great Harbor Trawler designs I thought the same. And particularly since both are built on very shallow draft hulls.

I believe the Fla Bay Coasters do not make as much of an attempt to keep their superstructures very lt-weight, but rather utilize steel even in these superstructures?

Great Harbor on the other hand makes use of lighter weight materials to construct their superstructures.....NideCore
About Great Harbor Trawlers : Design Discussions : Space Age Core
Quote:
While we have been discussing cores used in hulls, there is a new synthetic non-rotting polypropylene core that looks like honeycomb and is making huge inroads in boat construction. It is used everywhere but mostly above the waterline. This core has some great benefits and represents the best bang for the buck in the way of a core in areas that are not highly stressed such as decks, cabin sides, and roofs
.....another NidaCore reference again. on their website

I thought that somewhere else on their website there was more reference to the advantages of keeping weight out of the structures of the vessel above the waterline, PARTICULARLY at greater heights, but I did not find it. However here is an interesting point of view on stability of these style vessels.
Form Stability vs. Ballast and Stabilizers

Most folks should realize that keeping weight out of the topsides, or building ever-higher topsides should all contribute to less rolling motion
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Old 08-09-2013, 09:53 PM   #29
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....I thought that somewhere else on their website there was more reference to the advantages of keeping weight out of the structures of the vessel above the waterline, PARTICULARLY at greater heights, but I did not find it. However here is an interesting point of view on stability of these style vessels.
Form Stability vs. Ballast and Stabilizers
Yes, I did find that other mention
Quote:
Originally Posted by website
The angle to which a boat rolls in response to an upsetting force is a function of the shape of the watertight boundary of the hull, deck and topsides, the weight, and the center of gravity. On our trawlers, we have maximized stability by many design characteristics. These include a wide beam, not just in the hull but in the deckhouse; hard chines, a low center of gravity resulting from the heavily laid up solid hull construction combined with a light weight, high strength cored construction for the topsides, liquids located low in hull through the use of narrow, integral tanks,
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Old 08-09-2013, 09:59 PM   #30
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Yes, I did find that other mention
So what are you really looking for?

Stability in it's self doesn't mean a thing.

Barrels which are not very stable have survived a plunge over Niagra falls...in 50 years I have been going to sea in more seaworthy and stable vessels than barrels yet none could survive that.
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Old 08-09-2013, 10:53 PM   #31
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Another reply from that experienced owner on the other forum

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Originally Posted by timb7734 View Post
I am the second owner of the coaster, and it is a 1998 build. Our Gh 47 was built for us in 2008.

What will be a surprise to some critical followers of this thread, the coaster was brought to the Great Lakes on her own bottom from up river in Guatemala. Through the canal and up the east coast. Hmmmm.

My point is just where do you want to cruise? We have gone from Florida to Marsh Harbor in 32 hours. We have gone from Savannah to the northern Abacoes offshore overnight. Great Harbors have gone to Bermuda, Hawaii, and Newfoundland. Would I cross the Atlantic in one? NO. But then I wouldn't cross the Atlantic in a Nordhaven or a Krogen. I would put a GH on a dry dock ship and skip the 14 days at sea.

You are accurate in the comments about weight saving topsides in the GH, and the nidacore material was not available in 1998, not compatible with a steel build. More important to the builder is that, according to the naval architect, Lou Codega, the amount of air trapped in the nidacore offsets the weight of the machinery and fuel/waste/water such that barring a catastrophic fire the vessel will float just above the pilot house top and not completely sink.

I have met Mr Codega, and exchanged information with him on several occasions. I have also exchanged email information about the Coaster with it's designer, Jay Benford. Interestingly I believe there are small differences in the design dimensions that mitigate questions of stability between the two designs. For example the Coaster has a slightly deeper draft, and a wider beam for its length than the GH. The GH is not crammed full and typically sits 4 to6 inches above it's waterline, so in cruising trim for me has a three foot draft. The Coaster is over 4 feet and more beam for it's shorter length by 5 feet.

Last and most important to me is that after a lifetime of recreational boating and sailboat racing I don't care anymore to challenge the elements. We watch the weather very carefully and never venture offshore without an adequate weather window. Why is beating you and your boat in bad weather fun?

One of our clubs has a contingent of die hard sailors, five of which took a 34 foot full keel wooden ketch to Ireland a few years ago, spending the entire two weeks plus in bicycle helmets. Sense of accomplishment, yes, fun, NO.

Currently the Commodore of our club in Punta Gorda is a retired Great Lakes Captain who was in command of one of some 16 freighters in Duluth Minnesota in November one day in the late nineteen seventies, and 14 captains decided to wait out the forecast storm. Of the two that didn't, one was the Edmund Fitzgerald. The gist of a speech he gave to us one evening was that sometimes it takes more guts NOT TO GO.

Spend money on a boat for what you are realistically going to do, not what armchair architects tell you that you need.
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Old 08-10-2013, 12:34 AM   #32
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Hmmm. Well said. Given that I own a boat with some similarities to both Benford's and the Fickett/Codega design, I guess it's no surprise that I like both of them for what they are. I'd hope not to get stuck in any situation described by Eric with any of them, including mine. I'll probably keep on dreaming about the N-series GH engine room, cuz right now, unless my Admiral wanted to live aboard, it's too much of a stretch for me anyway. I should confess, however, that many of the mods I'm doing on my boat are GH inspired.

Regardless of the boat I own, I'll still be the same weather chicken I am now.
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Old 08-10-2013, 12:37 AM   #33
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Regardless of the boat I own, I'll still be the same weather chicken I am now.
I'll bet a lot of skippers on this forum share that title! (Count me as one. )
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Old 08-10-2013, 01:31 AM   #34
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Regardless of the boat I own, I'll still be the same weather chicken I am now.
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Originally Posted by SeaHorse II View Post
I'll bet a lot of skippers on this forum share that title! (Count me as one. )
Weather chicken describes me well. I am a "pleasure boater", unpleasant weather may spill my drink and that would be downright un-pleasant.
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Old 08-10-2013, 05:52 AM   #35
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Stability in it's self doesn't mean a thing.
WHAT !!

Quote:
So what are you really looking for?
If I were to redesign the Pilgrim 40 to be a steel hull below the deckline, what hull shape might be the best compromise? That's what I am researching.
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Old 08-10-2013, 07:08 AM   #36
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WHAT !!


If I were to redesign the Pilgrim 40 to be a steel hull below the deckline, what hull shape might be the best compromise? That's what I am researching.
Not WHAT!!!!!......fact...as I said....for some things, stability won't mean squat...it's the whole package. Canoes aren't very stable, but they are very good for what they evolved into...and yet there still are many variations on the canoe.

As far as redesigning a Pilgrim 40 below the waterline...why? What are you going to do with it? What's wrong with the original hull? All hulls are a compromise as said in the GH marketing mumbo jumbo...so what's your list of performance charachteristics? Why steel?

Most of all why in this thread? Why don't you start a thread on just what you have in mind so it's easier to follow?
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Old 08-10-2013, 08:28 AM   #37
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Most of all why in this thread? Why don't you start a thread on just what you have in mind so it's easier to follow?
Because you ASKED ME THE QUESTION IN THIS TREAD
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Old 08-10-2013, 09:02 AM   #38
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Hmmm.

Regardless of the boat I own, I'll still be the same weather chicken I am now.
I choose to try and outrun than stay and experience.
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Old 08-10-2013, 10:35 AM   #39
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IMHO - I think the GH make a fantastic boat for what the vast majority of trawler owners use them for. They appear to be spacious and comfortable, low draft for the Bahamas or similar areas, the built in buoyancy is a plus, an engine room that I have wet dreams about, and have salty-ish good looks (maybe a bit cartooney) I would love to cruise the PNW and Inside Passage with an N47.

What puts me off is their over the top marketing. "Go Anywhere Capability" trawler is on almost every page of their website. A big call to make. They may be good; but not that good. A lot of other debatable statements & claims are made, without factual supporting evidence.
From what I see of them, I don't think they are any more "go anywhere" than the average recreational trawler. I certainly wouldn't classify them as a passagemaker.

I feel they would be better off toning down some of their marketing hype, and just rely on the fact that they have built a boat that suits many owner's actual use.

Perhaps they know people often buy boats based on their dreams rather than their use.
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Old 08-10-2013, 10:48 AM   #40
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GH = great for harbor?
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