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Old 04-03-2016, 04:02 PM   #21
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So, if I plumbed my grey water discharge to exit via my engine exhaust...

Sorry, couldn't resist. I'm anxiously awaiting Peggy's ruling on Lake Champlain. I plan to pass through there this summer and would really prefer not to re-configure my plumbing systems to disable macerator discharge without impacting the pump-out fittings.
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Old 04-03-2016, 06:33 PM   #22
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I'm in no position to issue any "ruling" on anything...I'm just the messenger! But here's what the Code of Federal Regulations has to say:

33 CFR Chapter 26 › Subchapter III › 1322) reads:
(1)(A) Except as provided in subparagraph (B), after the effective date of the initial standards and regulations promulgated under this section,
no State or political subdivision thereof shall adopt or enforce any statute or regulation of such State or political subdivision with respect to the design, manufacture, or installation or use of any marine sanitation device on any vessel subject to the provisions of this section.

And in Title 46 of the CFR you'll also find:
Unless permitted by the Secretary under section 4305 of this title, a State or political subdivision of a State may not establish, continue in effect, or enforce a law or regulation establishing a recreational vessel or associated equipment performance or other safety standard or imposing a requirement for associated equipment (except insofar as the State or political subdivision may, in the absence of the Secretary’s disapproval, regulate the carrying or use of marine safety articles to meet uniquely hazardous conditions or circumstances within the State) that is not identical to a regulation prescribed under section 4302 of this title.
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Old 04-03-2016, 06:52 PM   #23
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So, if I plumbed my grey water discharge to exit via my engine exhaust...

Sorry, couldn't resist. I'm anxiously awaiting Peggy's ruling on Lake Champlain. I plan to pass through there this summer and would really prefer not to re-configure my plumbing systems to disable macerator discharge without impacting the pump-out fittings.
Ha wait! I have no thru-hulls on my boat! They drain down a pipe to the back, right next to the engine exhaust.....
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Old 04-03-2016, 06:57 PM   #24
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I remember reading that Newport Bay (?) in California is a no dump zone both black and gray. Also somewhere, maybe the same place, when you dock or enter the bay you are required to put a color dye tablet in your holding tanks so they can spot illegal dumping.....
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Old 04-03-2016, 07:05 PM   #25
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I have heard and read reliable reports of dye being used in both Long Island sound and around Newport. They dump it in the head, flush,flush, flush away and woe be unto those who discharge overboard. It would be interesting to dump dye into some random toilets in NYC and see where it comes out. Just saying'.
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Old 04-03-2016, 08:52 PM   #26
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Thanks God to pieces!!! all these comments in such a short period,
How fortunate that I was allocated to be born a resident of Alaska. Nuff said!!!

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Old 04-03-2016, 08:54 PM   #27
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Here's what the NY Reg's say... From Dept Environmental Conservation Webpage

"New York State's No Discharge Zones

Vessel Waste No Discharge Zone (NDZ) designations are a key component of a larger strategy for protecting all coastal waters of New York State. Most of these coastal waters and connecting waterways are already designated as No Discharge Zones, where it is illegal to discharge sewage from boats and boaters are required to use appropriate pump-out facilities, available at many marinas, to dispose of sewage.

The following table lists waterbodies in New York that are currently designated as No Discharge Zones. For more information, including maps of these NDZs, visit the EPA Region 2 No Discharge Zone webpage (a direct link is in the "Links Leaving DEC's Website" section of the right-hand column of this page).

What is a No Discharge Zone?
A No Discharge Zone designation means that it is illegal for boaters to discharge on-board sewage into the designated waterbody. This includes treated sewage, as well as untreated sewage. Boaters must instead dispose of their sewage at pumpout stations.

Sewage from boats often contains harmful levels of pathogens and chemicals such as formaldehyde, phenols and chlorine, which harm water quality, pose a risk to people's health, and impair marine life and habitats.

Federal law prohibits the discharge of untreated boat sewage within most navigable waters of the U.S. To take water quality protection a step further, DEC and the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) are working to prohibit sewage discharges to New York's coastal waters and navigable connecting waterways - which are not covered by the federal law - by designating them as No Discharge Zones".


I didn't find the page but I believe to be legal you have to disconnect the macerator / sewage treatment discharge hose while on Lk Champlain. I'll keep looking for that section.

I have not seen anything that refers to discharging grey water in NY unless it is a non-navigable inland (landlocked) lake... e.g. Lake George - does require all overboard discharges to be disconnected & collected for discharge ashore
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Old 04-03-2016, 09:00 PM   #28
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Does anyone else remember that the only thing the OP wanted to know was whether it's legal to discharge gray water directly overboard anywhere on the ICW?
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Old 04-03-2016, 09:56 PM   #29
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Lake Champlain Grey Water regs

I have found MANY forum posts, articles, etc citing what I consider folk lore / tall tales about Lake Champlain Grey Water Discharge.
The following are typical of any / all legal docs / references I have ever found with what I consider FACTS.
The way I read all of these the only unique reg that applies to Lk Champlain is the requirement to disconnect / plug any/all sewage discharge lines - vs simply disabling valves / switches in other NDZ waters (Hudson R, NY Canal, etc)

Some of the posts & brochures (like the one ref in post #5 & 8) seem to imply that you can't discharge anything including grey water - I find no refernce to grey water in any of the regulations cited - only to sewage (black water)

Here are a few legal references re: NY & VT re: marine discharges

EPA Listing of NDZ's by State (includes individual state detail links)

NYS details for MSD's


VT details for MSD's


From NYS Boating reg's

"SL 7. Marine Sanitation Devices (MSDs)
The MSD requirements on New York State waters are dictated by both federal and state law, depending on where the vessel is operated. On the state's land-locked lakes, all marine sewage must be kept aboard the vessel in a Type III MSD (holding tank) and pumped ashore at a marine pumpout facility. No sewage discharges are allowed on any land-locked lake located completely within New York’s borders.

On Canandaigua, Skaneateles, Greenwood (Orange County) Lakes, and Lake George, any vessel equipped with a toilet, sink, tub, etc., which results in the drainage of wastewater must have all such material drain into a holding tank so that it may be pumped ashore at a marine pumpout facility. Overboard lines from these systems must either be sealed or removed.

Vessels operating on the Great Lakes, State Canals, Hudson River, Long Island Sound, or on tidal waters may discharge sewage overboard only after it has been treated in a USCGcertified Type I or II MSD.
Type I MSDs may not be used on vessels greater than 65 feet.

When operating on Lake Champlain, boaters must have their MSD rendered inoperable and all overboard lines disconnected and plugged."


My apologies for continuing the thread drift - which looking back started as early as Post #2
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Old 04-03-2016, 09:59 PM   #30
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Greetings,
Ms. HM. You've been a contributing member of TF since 2009 and you have to ask THAT question? Must be a vintage year you're enjoying...

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Old 04-03-2016, 10:37 PM   #31
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When operating on Lake Champlain, boaters must have their MSD rendered inoperable and all overboard lines disconnected and plugged."

They can require resident boats to do that, but the 33 CFR citation I posted above: no State or political subdivision thereof shall adopt or enforce any statute or regulation of such State or political subdivision with respect to the design, manufacture, or installation or use of any marine sanitation device on any vessel subject to the provisions of this section...
that is not identical to a regulation prescribed under section 4302 of this title makes it clear that they cannot require transient vessels to disable any installed system...that they can only require that it be "secured" using one of the acceptable means described in 33 CFR 159.7 But because none of the "Loopers" are willing to risk going through the hassle of being the test case in court that would prove that, they all cave and disconnect even though no one knows of a single one of 'em who've ever even been inspected. And so another gov't agency successfully moves one small step closer to gov't gaining total control of the people without ever firing a single shot.
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Old 04-04-2016, 12:36 AM   #32
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When operating on Lake Champlain, boaters must have their MSD rendered inoperable and all overboard lines disconnected and plugged."

They can require resident boats to do that, but the 33 CFR citation I posted above: no State or political subdivision thereof shall adopt or enforce any statute or regulation of such State or political subdivision with respect to the design, manufacture, or installation or use of any marine sanitation device on any vessel subject to the provisions of this section...
that is not identical to a regulation prescribed under section 4302 of this title makes it clear that they cannot require transient vessels to disable any installed system...that they can only require that it be "secured" using one of the acceptable means described in 33 CFR 159.7 But because none of the "Loopers" are willing to risk going through the hassle of being the test case in court that would prove that, they all cave and disconnect even though no one knows of a single one of 'em who've ever even been inspected. And so another gov't agency successfully moves one small step closer to gov't gaining total control of the people without ever firing a single shot.
I think you are right, but the law still stands and can be enforced. And like many illegal laws, it will stand until challenged and struck down.
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Old 04-04-2016, 12:40 AM   #33
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I didn't realize till I read your post that the brochure RT cited wasn't produced by any state or local enforcement agency, it's just propaganda from the "Lake Champlain Committee," a self-appointed group of well-meaning people who've decided how things should be and have just enough of their facts right to be dangerous. They aren't even based on Lake Champlain, but in VT! Here's the link to their website The Lake Champlain Committee - Working for a healthy, accessible Lake Champlain
But wait, about half of Lake Champlain is in VT, and Burlington where the Lake Champlain Committee is headquartered is on Lake Champlain.
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Old 04-04-2016, 05:03 AM   #34
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It would be interesting to dump dye into some random toilets in NYC and see where it comes out. Just saying'.
That would be crazy to see all those red and blue and yellow alligators in the sewers
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Old 04-04-2016, 06:56 AM   #35
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But wait, about half of Lake Champlain is in VT, and Burlington where the Lake Champlain Committee is headquartered is on Lake Champlain.
But the L C Committee is an environmental group that can advocate but NOT make law...that's why they can't (won't) cite any Fed, NY and\or VT Reg's or Laws that back them up.
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Old 04-04-2016, 07:06 AM   #36
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"So, if I plumbed my grey water discharge to exit via my engine exhaust..."

For RV's this was actually done in the 60's - 70's era as a way of getting rid of black water underway..

A bit more complex than just a Y valve , and car exhaust is not water cooled , but it has been done.

Many RV have plumbing that always tanks the Black and allows the Grey to be captured or discharged directly in a campground.

This could be our boating future , bigger waste tanks.With more frequent pump outs.
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Old 04-04-2016, 08:53 AM   #37
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I have twice written to the Lake group that published that brochure asking them to cite the NY and/or Vt law that their statement re; grey water refers to.

I didn't realize till I read your post that the brochure RT cited wasn't produced by any state or local enforcement agency, it's just propaganda from the "Lake Champlain Committee," a self-appointed group of well-meaning people who've decided how things should be and have just enough of their facts right to be dangerous. They aren't even based on Lake Champlain, but in VT! Here's the link to their website The Lake Champlain Committee - Working for a healthy, accessible Lake Champlain

And it's a prime example of how, if some group claims that something is so, people just assume that it is and spread it as "fact." RT fell victim to it, and till I read your post, Don, so did I...I even saved the bookmark to my Laws and Regulations folder!

As soon as I have time after I get back from the show in CA, I'll search state and federal legislation for any citation that backs up their claim that it's illegal to discharge gray water on Champlain and I'll also take another run asking them to produce any. I prob'ly won't have any more luck than you did, though.
Truthiness again.
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Old 04-04-2016, 10:28 AM   #38
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"So, if I plumbed my grey water discharge to exit via my engine exhaust..."

For RV's this was actually done in the 60's - 70's era as a way of getting rid of black water underway..

But only for a very short time because it damaged catalytic converters but also resulted in VERY smelly exhaust that vehicles following those RVs found intolerable.

A bit more complex than just a Y valve , and car exhaust is not water cooled , but it has been done.

At least two companies have tried it on boats, but neither lasted long because it only worked on boats with dry exhaust--mostly muscle boats--and had the same odor problems it had on RVs. Wet exhausts, found on 90% of recreational vessels, don't get hot enough. "The ZLD" is/was another try that may or may not still be in business...its website is still up The ZLD

Many RV have plumbing that always tanks the Black and allows the Grey to be captured or discharged directly in a campground.

Most RV parks have direct hookups for both sewage and gray water. Except for very dumpy "mom and pop" operations you wouldn't want to stay in, none allow gray water to be just discharged onto the ground.

This could be our boating future...

Not very likely, Fred.
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Old 04-06-2016, 03:30 PM   #39
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But because none of the "Loopers" are willing to risk going through the hassle of being the test case in court that would prove that, they all cave and disconnect even though no one knows of a single one of 'em who've ever even been inspected. And so another gov't agency successfully moves one small step closer to gov't gaining total control of the people without ever firing a single shot.

Ahem....For the record I'm one who did NOT cave
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Old 04-06-2016, 04:49 PM   #40
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