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Old 12-26-2009, 04:25 AM   #41
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RE: Grand Banks vs. ?

"So they overbuilt them because that is what everybody thought was the proper way to build boats. My 1982 Prairie was every bit of an inch and half thick if not more."

Thickness is STILL required for a GRP boat to last.At least an inspected vessel.

The USCG figures the hull should be about 400% stronger than needed , to live.

This translates to the fact that GRP is usually strong enough , but seldom stiff enough.

Modern cored materials can s spread the skins far enough that the strength of GRP can be used , sans the extra weight.

On a distance cruiser the cored advantages are minor, the outer skin on a cored vessel will still need to be thick enough to be hard to puncture in a grounding.

So the mfg balances the cost of a core material vs the cost of solid glass in the hull.

The extra planning + experience required for doing hull penitrations adds enough that most Mfg chose solid below the WL and cheap not very strong core material above deck and sometimes above the LWL on the hull.

The cost compromise is to use Vynelester for an outer layer or perhaps 2 and cheap laminating resin for the thickness. of the rest.
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Old 12-26-2009, 10:29 AM   #42
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RE: Grand Banks vs. ?

Hey Baker,
Give the Pres a nod for me if you run into him!
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Old 12-26-2009, 11:05 AM   #43
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Grand Banks vs. ?

Quote:
Baker wrote:

Hey Marin, Half the world lives in the Southern Hemisphere where Christmas occurs in the Summertime. I think they would disagree with you....and I am typing this from Hawaii. Merry Christmas!!!
Well, you know what they say---- Half the world's population is below the average intelligence point.

I'm sorry you have to spend Christmas in such a sucky place.* Better luck next year.* I imagine you have jump-seat privileges on a lot of other carriers so you could go someplace actually worth going to pretty cheaply.* Try Malta, for instance.* Before we went there I thought it was just a hot rock i the middle of the Mediterranean.* It IS a hot rock in the middle of the Mediterranean, but it's an fascinating place with an even more fascinating history.

The GB44 is the original model number of what is now called the GB47.* GB originally used the water line length for its model numbers.* Several years ago they changed to the ABYC method of "naming" a boat's length, which is the overall length including every component that is permanently attached to the boat.* So pulpit and swimstep if the boat has these.* The GB44 became the GB47.

Check out the company's website--- there are only three models now-- 41, 47, and 52.* They have recently dropped the 46.


-- Edited by Marin on Saturday 26th of December 2009 12:17:32 PM
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Old 12-26-2009, 11:45 AM   #44
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RE: Grand Banks vs. ?

FWIW, here is what actual Burmese teak looks like. Harvesting and trade in this wood is limited and regulated by international law, which has produced something of a black market for it. As its been explained to me by the wood importer we use, the regulations are such that it is very difficult or impossible to sell it directly on an international basis, which has given rise to the practice of laundering Burmese teak through countries like Malaysia, which was the exporter of the wood we've purchased.

These restrictions have made true Burmese teak staggeringly expensive, and the advent of plantation teak has made the use of Burmese teak almost a thing of the past with boat builders.* Plantation trees are cut when they are quite young, and the type of tree they used is selected for fast growth.* Hence the uniform straight grain, the uniform color, and the lack of figuring

All the teak on our boat--- handrails, caprails, cabinetry, transom, deck planking--- is like the wood in the two photos. And this is true of every older boat I've been on, including CHB, Island Gypsy, Puget Trawler, and innumerable sailboats from the 70s and 80s.

Contrast the grain and figuring in these photos with the photos Walt put up of the interior of his boat and you see the difference between old-growth, true Burmese teak and plantation teak which, I am told, actually comes from a different tree than the Burmese teak does.

So if you ever see a trawler or sailboat from the 60s, 70s, or 80s being parted out, like after a hurricane or something, it would almost be worthwhile to strip the teak off of it-- handrails, interior paneling and trim, etc.--- because you just can't get this quality of wood anymore unless you are willing to pay many hundreds of dollars per board.
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Old 12-26-2009, 12:32 PM   #45
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Grand Banks vs. ?

So I guess I should go by the "wood importer" you use and not the Halvorsen spec sheet. Isn't there a truth in advertising law somewhere that protects unsuspecting teak buyers like myself? I shall write the Halvorsen folks and inform them of their faulty advertising.

Thanks Marin!



-- Edited by SeaHorse II on Saturday 26th of December 2009 02:05:02 PM

-- Edited by SeaHorse II on Saturday 26th of December 2009 02:08:39 PM
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Old 12-26-2009, 06:18 PM   #46
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RE: Grand Banks vs. ?

I didn't say the teak in your boat is not from Burma (Myanamar). Just that it's plantation teak as opposed to old-growth teak. Plantation teak is grown all over the place, including Myanmar, Indonesia, Thailand, and even in Africa. The almost uniform straight grain and "uniform golden brown without markings" is the definition of fast-grown, inexpensive plantation teak (or any wood). The reason the now almost-unobtainable old growth teak has the beautiful patterning and figuring is that as these trees grew over a hundred or more years, different weather patterns, varying rainfall amounts, even the shading from nearby trees all contribute to the uneven growth rates, which are defined by the uneven patterns in the wood.

Plantation teak is grown very fast, harvested very young, and as a result does not have time to develop the figuring and grain quality of "true" Burmese teak. Burmese teak has become nothing more than a marketing name today, like Chilean Sea Bass. There is no such fish as we leaned when working with fish exporters in Chile a few years ago--- it's the marketing name for the Patagonian Toothfish, an unbelievably ugly thing that nobody would touch with a ten foot pole let alone eat if that's what the restaurant called it.. Or "Snow Crab," another made up marketing name for what used to be considered a trash crab called the "tanner crab."

Anyway, I would certainly raise hell with whoever made your boat. They misled you severely and I think you should be due a refund. If they actually charged you for genuine Burmese teak, given the amount of wood and veneer in your boat, I would say you're due back a good $50,000 or more. So go for it. In marketing terms, you do indeed have "Burmese Teak" in your boat. In forestry terms, you don't.
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Old 12-26-2009, 06:20 PM   #47
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RE: Grand Banks vs. ?

The only trouble I have had in getting teak to make things for my interior, is the new stuff has way more "figuring" and character in the grain than shows in the old stuff that was originally used in 1979/80 when my boat was built in Taiwan. That seems exactly opposite Marin's thesis.

Naturally , here in Vancouver, BC, there are few choices, so you have to go with what the local Windsor Plywood store sells. They wouldn't sell it if it was as expensive as Marin suggests. Nor would I buy it. So, what really is the difference between Burmese and any other?

However, once installed and allowed to age for a couple of years, the new is less of a standout from the old, as fading/bleaching by the sun takes its toll.
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Old 12-26-2009, 06:52 PM   #48
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RE: Grand Banks vs. ?

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So, what really is the difference between Burmese and any other?
Originally, Burmese teak was the name of old-growth teak grown in Southeast Asia.* It grew all over the place, not just Burma, but it acquired the Burmese name because I assume most of the harvest came from there or it was the easiest name to say, I don't know.* Like "California" avocados--- all you need to grow them anywhere on the planet are the right conditions.

Remembering back to my forestry major days, grain and figuring within a given tree are the result of the conditions the tree was subjected to as it grew.* Within a specific tree you will get a variety of grain configurations and how this grain appears in the finished plank (or veneer) will depend on how the log is cut up.* An advantage of using wood with a straight, uniform grain is that the problem of matching adjacent pieces of wood is minimized.* It's boring as hell, but it all has the same look, which means that matching grain, figuring, color, etc. is not so critical and thus reduces the cost of making the boat or furniture or whatever.

You can get uniform, straight grain planks out of many old growth trees: it all depends on how the mill cuts it.

Some yards and wood suppliers will buy entire logs of a particular kind of wood--- oak, teak, etc.--- and cut the log into parallel planks.* The orientation of the planks is never changed but spacers are placed between each plank for air circulation and the wood is allowed to dry naturally.* By storing the planks oriented exactly the same as they were when they were part of the tree, wood cut from the top of one plank will have the same color, grain, and figuring of wood cut from the bottom of the next plank.* So on furniture, cabinetry, etc. you can have beautiful figuring and grain and the pieces will all have the same characteristics.

Some boatyards, like American Marine, that started in wood tended to go for the more interesting figuring that was characteristic of old-growth teak, be it from Burma, Thailand, or wherever.* Same as furniture makers.* For example, on the backs and bottoms of the drawers and cabinetry in our boat, the various pieces of wood have inked markings on them delineating the hull number and the number of the individual piece.* This was done to keep the characteristics of the wood consistent in the boat and in that particular cabinet.* So the sections of the hanging cabinet in our galley, for example, are labeled "403-1", "403-2", "403-3" and so on.* This ensured that the color and grain of the wood would match at corners and so on.

But in more recent years as this wood became more and more rare and more and more regulations were placed on its harvest and sale, the move was made to plantation teak.* One of the advantages is that because the wood from plantation teak is pretty much uniform in color and grain, it all looks about the same no matter what particular tree it came from., where it came from within the tree, or even where it was grown.

I've used a few pieces of plantation teak in our boat before I found a good source of old-growth teak in Washington, and it doesn't match at all.

A parallel to the teak situation can be found in the walnut situation.* It used to be that almost all gunstocks were made of walnut.* Even a cheap Sears & Roebuck rifle often had beautiful wood in the stock although it usually had a lousy finish on it.* But today, unless he rifle is very high end or has a composite stock, the wood stocks look like crap.* That is because old-growth walnut has become like old-growth teak--- staggeringly expensive.



*
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Old 12-26-2009, 07:41 PM   #49
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RE: Grand Banks vs. ?

It will all depend on the wood you bought. Wood is not a controllable substance, like plastic or metal. It is what it grows up to be. The fact that you got wood to match what you already have is not impossible or even surprising. The wood we have bought recently is a very nice match for what was put in our boat 36 years ago. Plantation teak I bought awhile back awhile back was not. We have also seen old-growth teak that would not have matched the wood in our boat. So your statement seems rather pointless since dealing with wood is dealing with a zillion variables. If you're trying to match wood, you have to select wood that's a match in color, grain, and figuring. Doesn't matter if it's old-growth or plantation-grown. It either matches or it doesn't and if it doesn't you have to keep looking until you find wood that does. You might even find plantation teak that looks very similar to the old growth teak that a builder used. It all depends on the trees, the location they grew, the conditions they grew under, how it was milled, etc. Matching wood doesn't strike me as rocket science but perhaps to some people it is.

The interior of Walt's boat appears in the photos to be extremely well done. Whether the wood is old-growth or plantation-grown is irrelevant. It looks great, Walt likes it, end of story. I was originally reacting to his statement that he feels the woodwork in his boat is better than what Grand Banks does, or did. I might go along with the "does" but not with the "did" because older GBs had the advantage of the yard using old-growth wood, which at least in my opinion looks better than plantation or young tree wood, which is most of what is available today.
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Old 12-26-2009, 08:45 PM   #50
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RE: Grand Banks vs. ?

Quote:
Marin wrote:

*
Baker wrote:

Hey Marin, Half the world lives in the Southern Hemisphere where Christmas occurs in the Summertime. I think they would disagree with you....and I am typing this from Hawaii. Merry Christmas!!!
Well, you know what they say---- Half the world's population is below the average intelligence point.

I'm sorry you have to spend Christmas in such a sucky place.* Better luck next year.* I imagine you have jump-seat privileges on a lot of other carriers so you could go someplace actually worth going to pretty cheaply.* Try Malta, for instance.* Before we went there I thought it was just a hot rock i the middle of the Mediterranean.* It IS a hot rock in the middle of the Mediterranean, but it's an fascinating place with an even more fascinating history.

The GB44 is the original model number of what is now called the GB47.* GB originally used the water line length for its model numbers.* Several years ago they changed to the ABYC method of "naming" a boat's length, which is the overall length including every component that is permanently attached to the boat.* So pulpit and swimstep if the boat has these.* The GB44 became the GB47.

Check out the company's website--- there are only three models now-- 41, 47, and 52.* They have recently dropped the 46.


-- Edited by Marin on Saturday 26th of December 2009 12:17:32 PM
*



If you remember correctly, there NEVER was a GB44.....it WAS the 42 and became the 44 after their "remeasurement" of things. *Now if they stopped making it, then that is another story. *BUT, the 44 is the new version of the 42....

*

That is a passagemaker mag link below.... don't shoot the messenger....

*

*



http://www.grandbanks.com/images/res...ker_122005.pdf

*
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Old 12-26-2009, 09:37 PM   #51
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Grand Banks vs. ?

Not shooting the messenger, just correcting him. The GB44-- the boat referred to in the Passagemaker 2005 magazine you referenced--- is in fact the same boat (slightly stretched) that is sold today as the GB47. If you look at the timeline on the GB website, you will see that the GB47 was introduced in 2005. This is correct, but GB is using the current terminology on their website not the original model number which was GB44.* There is no boat on the timeline called the GB44.

The last GB42 was made in 2005, hull number 1560. There was no replacement, and no "remeasuring."* Here is a quote from the Passagemaker article: "We wondered how the company could justify abandoning its 40-year-old line of 42-foot yachts-- the most successful group of cruising boats ever built-- to make way for the 44."

The GB44 aka 47 was a whole new boat. It was not a "remeasured" GB42. It has a completely different hull design than the GBs that came before, all of which used the original semi-planing hull. The GB44/47 has a V-shaped hull, propeller tunnels, and a bunch of other characteristics that are designed for higher speeds. This is clearly shown in the Passagemaker GB44 article, which of course was written before GB changed the name of the boat to GB47.

GB undoubtedly hoped the folks who would have bought a GB42 would ante up the major bucks for a GB44/47 after the GB42 was discontinued. I know a lot of GB47s have been sold in Europe--- I don't know how popular the boat has proven to be in the US.

Grand Banks never "remeasured" any of it's final "classic" lineup-- the GB36, GB42, and GB46--- into any other number. In fact, the GB46 remained the GB46 until production was finally halted just a couple of years ago.* This was some years after the GB44 was "remeasured" into the GB47.

I even remember reading the press release from GB announcing the re-naming of the GB44 into GB47 and why they were doing this.





-- Edited by Marin on Saturday 26th of December 2009 10:59:29 PM
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Old 12-28-2009, 06:34 PM   #52
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RE: Grand Banks vs. ?

You could have just said....the GB42 was discontinued and the GB44 took it's place....and then the GB47 was born as a result of the "remeasurement". Is that the reader's digest version???
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Old 12-28-2009, 08:31 PM   #53
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RE: Grand Banks vs. ?

John,
Marin's a man of many words and he likes to talk. Lets be thankful that he knows more than a bit about what he talks about and that he's very good at it. Think of what it would be like if it were not so. I wish he'd be a little more flexible though. At least Marin's not trying to sell anything.

Eric Henning
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Old 12-28-2009, 08:45 PM   #54
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RE: Grand Banks vs. ?

Quote:
Baker wrote:

You could have just said....the GB42 was discontinued and the GB44 took it's place....and then the GB47 was born as a result of the "remeasurement". Is that the reader's digest version???
Well, I kind of did say that the first time and you came back with your "there never was a GB44, it was just a remeasured 42.* Hence the explanation.* Sorry......

*
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Old 01-01-2010, 11:46 PM   #55
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RE: Grand Banks vs. ?

Quote:
Marin wrote:

*
Baker wrote:

You could have just said....the GB42 was discontinued and the GB44 took it's place....and then the GB47 was born as a result of the "remeasurement". Is that the reader's digest version???
Well, I kind of did say that the first time and you came back with your "there never was a GB44, it was just a remeasured 42.* Hence the explanation.* Sorry......

*

*



No need for apology!!! *I was just a bit off and am willing to admit it when I am...
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Old 08-05-2010, 05:00 AM   #56
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RE: Grand Banks vs. ?

Quote:
Marin wrote:

*
JohnP wrote:The connection to the people who built the GBs is a bit remote, but researching the Halvorsen site and the history of the yardway Marine builders in Hong Kong seems to point to some American Marine folks working on the Kong and Halvorsens.* I will try and post a clipping from the article and a link to the site.* John P* "Adagio"* Toms River NJ
You're right.* One of the newer participants on the Grand Banks Owners Forum is Shing Kong, whose father was one of the first marine engineers hired by American Marine, and went on to become the "Kong" in Kong and Halvorsen.* Shing has been providing us with a remarkable history of GB as well as lots of photos taken during the heyday of the AM Kowloon Yard.

*

American Marine's activities spawned a number off offshoots, and people who used to work there went on to other boat-building endeavors when American Marine moved all their operations to Singapore.* There was even a 28' "Grand Banks" that was built in the old AM yard in Kowloon by a group headed by one of the Newton brothers, the family that founded American Marine.* The "GB28" (wood) has most of the same characteristics of the GB32 and was probably made by some of the same shipwrights who had worked at the yard when American Marine had it.* Only a handful were made--- one of our members from Scandinavia has one that that prompted Shing's story about it.

*

Shing is a remarkable source of information on GBs early history---- he's become a great asset to the GB owner's site.

*

**Hello You all! My name is Mitja and I'm the owner of Grandma, a Grand Banks 28 hull 001. I have to correct a couple of facts told here. Grandma was NOT built in Kowloon, but in Singapore. That's what the plate says. The plate says Grand Banks 28, hull 001, American Marine Ltd. Singapore. So I wouldn't call her a 28 "Grand Banks". She was made in teak in 1975 as a plug for fiberglass production. Mitja.

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