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Old 12-24-2009, 12:51 PM   #21
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Grand Banks vs. ?

Quote:
sunchaser wrote:

But where in GB today is a trawler with fuel efficiency and "near"displacement design?
I had a chance not long ago to hear directly from GB why this is the case.* In their view, there is no viable market for this type of boat anymore.* At least not a high-profit market.* Their market--- and they do have a very viable one--- wants things very different than what people wanted in the GB32, 36, 42 days.* They cannot build, they said, these kinds of boats with the quality they want to build them with, and sell them for any sort of profit.* This is what finally killed the GB36.* It simply cost too much to manufacture and to make any money on it, they had to price it higher than people--- even wealthy people--- were willing to pay for a 36' boat.* They even tried making a GB36 "Lite" in the early 2000s--- a sort of stripped down, simplified GB36.* The then-dealer in our marina sold one of them.* But even then GB could not sell them competitively.* So they terminated the model.

Yes, there are lots of people who bemoan the demise of the "dependable diesel cruiser" which is how GBs were marketed in the heyday of their previous models (GB has never called their boats "trawlers.")* But despite all the gnashing of teeth and the predictions that GB is doing themselves in by abandoning this "market" the reality is that this market no longer exists.* All the people bemoaning the demise of the "classic" GBs have old ones.** They are in no more position to buy a new GB than I am.* You can't make money offering products to people who want them but can't afford to buy them.

So while GB is happy to sell boats in the US and certainly makes an effort to do so, they (I'm told) no longer view the US as their primary market.* Regions I have seen described as their primary areas of interest are tne Middle East, Russia, China (PRC), and Southeast Asia.* Outside of the current economic worldwide slump, which is showing signs of recovery now, these regions are where the big money is (and big profits).* In Xiamen, China, where I spent a couple of months this year, property development firms are creating huge residential-marina complexes, massive things with dredged-out lagoons, big individual homes and condo-style residences, marinas, etc.* These developments are advertised on billboards all over the island, as are several major boat builders.* Sea Ray billboards are all over the place as are----- Grand Banks billboards.* And of course, the Nordhavn plant is in Xiamen.* Factory-direct pricing

Sure, there are a lot of affordable trawler-type boats being made.* But in these new markets, from what I've observed and been told by people who live in these regions, you don't buy a Chevy if you have or can beg, borrow, or steal the money to buy a Porsche.

So the boats GB builds today are tailored for the buyers in these areas, not so much the US and Canada.* The principle requirements in these "new money" regions is speed, flash, status, and brand recognition.* The road traffic in Xiamen, which is a very fast-growing city and has vehicle traffic comparable to almost any same-size US city, is comprised almost entirely of new vehicles. * There are lots of VWs, Lexus, Volvo and other similar up-market brands.* There are also tons of Land Rover Discoveries (called the LR3 in the US), Range Rovers, and Porsches.* Xiamen has a Bentley dealership, a Ferrari dealership, and a Maserati dealership and you see these things on the road in course of a day's driving around.

Hence the pod-drive GB41, the fast GB47, and the Aleutian.* From what I gather from the GB owners forum there are more sales of new GBs even in Europe now than in the US.* The "dependable diesel cruiser" days, at least for Grand Banks, are over.* They have chosen to leave that market to the low-cost Chinese builders.* Whether this proves to be a smart move in the long run remains to be seen, but given the rapidly shifting movement of wealth on the planet, I would say it is providing they can continue to create the kind of boats the people in these markets who can afford to buy them want.* What seems to be a "confusing" lineup of boats to people here apparently makes all sorts of sense to the people who are actually in a position to buy these boats.* And for the* most part, they are not in the US.



-- Edited by Marin on Thursday 24th of December 2009 02:01:07 PM
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Old 12-24-2009, 01:18 PM   #22
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RE: Grand Banks vs. ?

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JohnP wrote:

*
SeaHorse II wrote:

<a>"Adagio" is a 1983 model, the builders plate says she was built in Hong Kong. A Grand Banks owner on my dock says my boat appears to be built by the same people who made his.</a>
*
FWIW, American Marine (Grand Banks) had closed their Kowloon Yard across the bay from Hong Kong by 1983.* Also, American Marine never did any fiberglass work in Kowloon, only wood.* All the fiberglass GBs, Lagunas, Eastbays. and Aleutians have been made in the company's Singapore yard, and more recently in the additional yard they built across the Strait in Malaysia.* Most of the wood GBs were made in the original Kowloon yard although some wood boats were made in the Singapore yard as well until the company switched entirely to fiberglass construction in the mid-70s.

*
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Old 12-24-2009, 02:19 PM   #23
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RE: Grand Banks vs. ?

Forklift thought Walt was interested in the money side of the investment. Would it be worth it to pay the premium price? All Jaguars, Cadillacs and Mercedes cars become junkers barely worth anything in the end and so do premium boats. If you buy a boat new and sell in 5 years you may not suffer any more loss (or gain) whether you bought premium or low end but sooner or later the loss of the money "invested" in the premium product will have to be borne by somebody. The steep part of the value curve and it's place in time varies a lot between brands and products. I suspect that a 20 to 25 yr old Bayliner may be worth about the same in 5 or 10 years as it is now, making it a very good buy for someone looking for that type of boat. For example: A well maintained 15 yr old Cadillac is probably a better buy than a new one. A well maintained 15 yr old Grand Banks may not be on the steep part of the depreciation yet but sooner or later it will be. That is the time not to own a GB**** .. when its on the steep part of the value curve. I see that Nordic Tugs seem to have reciently probably been on the steep part of thier curve as they have become affordable to me now, however that could be mostly due to the bad market.
Somebody criticized GBs for being wet boats. From what I've seen and heard it must be true but I think it has little or nothing to do w the plum stem. The fact that the GBs are heavy, wide boats w low freeboard and a sharp knuckle well below the cap rail makes them "wet".

Eric Henning
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Old 12-24-2009, 03:10 PM   #24
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Grand Banks vs. ?

Eric--- I think you are accurate with your whole post, including the wet boat part.

You're correct, a new GB will depreciate pretty fast, although perhaps not quite as fast as some other makes. Here is the website for the "For Sale" board at our local GB brokerage in Bellingham http://www.nwexplorations.com/brokerage.cfm The prices are still pretty good (for the seller) but they are still considerably below the new price even accounting for inflation of the dollar over the years. The only reason to buy a new GB (or any new boat) is if you want to own a new boat. There are certainly advantages to this, particularly if you a) have the money and b) plan to keep the boat for a long, long time.

We paid almost twice in dollars for our boat in 1998 than it sold for new in 1973. But that's not an apples to apples comparison because 1973 dollars were worth a hell of a lot more than 1998 dollars. So in terms of actual value the boat had considerably less of it 25 years after it was built. I don't have the financial knowledge to calculate how much.

A GB "classic" hull gives a pretty wet ride indeed, but it's nothing to to with the nearly plumb stem as you correctly say. It's because there is not much flare to the bow. In Bellingham Bay, where the wind even on a no-wind day seems to always blow twenty knots, the prevailing wind and wave direction is from the southwest. Some of the destinations we regularly go to require quartering into the waves, taking them on the port bow. So these very steep, closely-space whitecaps come foaming in on us, wham into that fairly vertical forebody and with little flare to deflect them down they shoot straight up into the air at which point the wind catches them and blows them onto the boat. It is routine that we cross Bellingham Bay on a warm, sunny, no-cloud day with all three windshield wipers going the whole time.

The boat is wet even heading directly into the waves if it's windy enough and the waves are large enough--- say three to four feet or more. Same deal--- the bow plows into these very steep wind waves, both side of the bow throw the water up, and he wind catches it and blows it onto the deck and into the pilothouse windows. So all three wipers are on again.

This happens only at the bow.* The movement of the hull through waves, even when rolling pretty severely, does not slop up spray or water onto the boat along the length of the hull.

My assumption as to why the GB has this characteristic is that the hulls were first built of wood, and I presume building a wood framed and planked hull with a lot of reverse curve or flare to the upper part of the bow is a much more complex--- and expensive--- task than building a hull with a "conventional" hull curve.* You would know more about that than I do, however. * So since the fiberglass GBs used hull molds that were patterned exactly after the wood hulls, the hulls had the same characteristics.* And since buyers liked the aesthetics and the "wet ride" thing didn't seem to be an issue with them, the company elected not to change the shape as the years went on.

So far as I can tell, the bow flare did not change noticeably-- or at all---when they went to the new hull molds for the GB36 and GB42 in 1988. The boats got a little longer, a little wider, and a little taller but I don't believe the actual hull shape changed at all. We chartered '91 GB36 prior to buying our own boat and it had the same characteristics on windy days with waves.

In fact, as they started putting larger and larger engines into GBs starting in the 90s, a curved spray rail down near the waterline at the bow became a standard feature on any GB with a total engine power over--- I think---- 400 hp. Or maybe more. Whatever, it was installed to help knock down the bow wave when the boat was being driven fast and reduce the amount of spray being blown onto the boat.

Here is the most head-on shot I have of our boat, and you can see how little flare there is to the sides of the bow.* The waves just shoot right up that hull and into the wind.




-- Edited by Marin on Thursday 24th of December 2009 04:44:39 PM
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Old 12-24-2009, 03:42 PM   #25
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RE: Grand Banks vs. ?

Quote:
Marin wrote:


JohnP wrote:

*
SeaHorse II wrote:

<a>"Adagio" is a 1983 model, the builders plate says she was built in Hong Kong. A Grand Banks owner on my dock says my boat appears to be built by the same people who made his.</a>
*
FWIW, American Marine (Grand Banks) had closed their Kowloon Yard across the bay from Hong Kong by 1983.* Also, American Marine never did any fiberglass work in Kowloon, only wood.* All the fiberglass GBs, Lagunas, Eastbays. and Aleutians have been made in the company's Singapore yard, and more recently in the additional yard they built across the Strait in Malaysia.* Most of the wood GBs were made in the original Kowloon yard although some wood boats were made in the Singapore yard as well until the company switched entirely to fiberglass construction in the mid-70s.

*
The connection to the people who built the GBs is a bit remote, but researching the Halvorsen site and the history of the yardway Marine builders in Hong Kong seems to point to some American Marine folks working on the Kong and Halvorsens.* I will try and post a clipping from the article and a link to the site.* John P* "Adagio"* Toms River NJ


*
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Old 12-24-2009, 03:56 PM   #26
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RE: Grand Banks vs. ?

Quote:
JohnP wrote:The connection to the people who built the GBs is a bit remote, but researching the Halvorsen site and the history of the yardway Marine builders in Hong Kong seems to point to some American Marine folks working on the Kong and Halvorsens.* I will try and post a clipping from the article and a link to the site.* John P* "Adagio"* Toms River NJ
You're right.* One of the newer participants on the Grand Banks Owners Forum is Shing Kong, whose father was one of the first marine engineers hired by American Marine, and went on to become the "Kong" in Kong and Halvorsen.* Shing has been providing us with a remarkable history of GB as well as lots of photos taken during the heyday of the AM Kowloon Yard.

*

American Marine's activities spawned a number off offshoots, and people who used to work there went on to other boat-building endeavors when American Marine moved all their operations to Singapore.* There was even a 28' "Grand Banks" that was built in the old AM yard in Kowloon by a group headed by one of the Newton brothers, the family that founded American Marine.* The "GB28" (wood) has most of the same characteristics of the GB32 and was probably made by some of the same shipwrights who had worked at the yard when American Marine had it.* Only a handful were made--- one of our members from Scandinavia has one that that prompted Shing's story about it.

*

Shing is a remarkable source of information on GBs early history---- he's become a great asset to the GB owner's site.
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Old 12-24-2009, 03:58 PM   #27
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Grand Banks vs. ?

Quote:
Marin wrote:

Eric--- I think you are accurate with your whole post, including the wet boat part.

------------------------------------Edit---------------------------

It's because there is not much flare to the bow.* It is routine that we cross Bellingham Bay on a warm, sunny, no-cloud day with all three windshield wipers going the whole time.
------------------------------------Edit------------------------------

This happens only at the bow.* The movement of the hull through waves, even when rolling pretty severely, does not slop up spray or water onto the boat along the length of the hull.
------------------------------------Edit------------------------------

In fact, as they started putting larger and larger engines into GBs starting in the 90s, a curved spray rail down near the waterline at the bow became a standard feature on any GB with engines over--- I think---- 250 hp. Or maybe 300. Whatever, it was installed to help knock down the bow wave when the boat was being driven fast and reduce the amount of spray being blown onto the boat.

-- Edited by Marin on Thursday 24th of December 2009 04:31:50 PM
I purposely edited out some of Marin's quote, only to better explain the performance of my boat. His description (edited above) describes my boat's performance to a tee.

This was one of my reasons for starting this thread. As far as 32' Trawlers are concerned, there's not a dime's worth of difference between a GB and an IG. (Island Gypsy)****** Oh, Oh! SEE! It's all in the name!

Check the spray rail below


*


-- Edited by SeaHorse II on Thursday 24th of December 2009 05:11:43 PM
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Old 12-24-2009, 05:25 PM   #28
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RE: Grand Banks vs. ?

Quote:
Marin wrote:


JohnP wrote:The connection to the people who built the GBs is a bit remote, but researching the Halvorsen site and the history of the yardway Marine builders in Hong Kong seems to point to some American Marine folks working on the Kong and Halvorsens.* I will try and post a clipping from the article and a link to the site.* John P* "Adagio"* Toms River NJ
You're right.* One of the newer participants on the Grand Banks Owners Forum is Shing Kong, whose father was one of the first marine engineers hired by American Marine, and went on to become the "Kong" in Kong and Halvorsen.* Shing has been providing us with a remarkable history of GB as well as lots of photos taken during the heyday of the AM Kowloon Yard.

*My friends boat is an Admirality50 built my American Marine in 1969, he has owned this boat since the early 70's and she has become an beloved member of his family. She is a ketch motorsailor with an awesome great cabin aft.* American Marine and of course GrandBanks build high quality beautiful boats.* I am glad a little of it has rubbed off on "Adagio".* However I will always be jealous of the GB owner network and world reknown name.*** Happy Holidays!* JEP*

American Marine's activities spawned a number off offshoots, and people who used to work there went on to other boat-building endeavors when American Marine moved all their operations to Singapore.* There was even a 28' "Grand Banks" that was built in the old AM yard in Kowloon by a group headed by one of the Newton brothers, the family that founded American Marine.* The "GB28" (wood) has most of the same characteristics of the GB32 and was probably made by some of the same shipwrights who had worked at the yard when American Marine had it.* Only a handful were made--- one of our members from Scandinavia has one that that prompted Shing's story about it.

*

Shing is a remarkable source of information on GBs early history---- he's become a great asset to the GB owner's site.



*
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Old 12-24-2009, 06:12 PM   #29
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Grand Banks vs. ?

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As far as 32' Trawlers are concerned, there's not a dime's worth of difference between a GB and an IG. (Island Gypsy)
The GB 32 never acquired a particularly powerful engine and so never had the spray deflector added to the forward part of the hull near the waterline.* I don't see such a structure on the boat in your photo either unless it's hidden inside the bow wave.* The long "strip" near the waterline near the stern I have always heard referred to as a rub rail.* All GBs and most other kinds of boats have these, but that is not the structure I was referring to.* To see what I was talking about open the Northwest Explorations link I included in an earlier post.* Some of the GBs depicted have them--- it's particularly obvious on the 1992 GB36 at the bottom of the page.

As to the dime's worth of difference, I've been on a few IGs and was not all that impressed with the cabinetry and the quality of teak used in the boat.* But that is a totally subjective opinion.


-- Edited by Marin on Thursday 24th of December 2009 07:22:10 PM
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Old 12-24-2009, 10:27 PM   #30
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Grand Banks vs. ?

Quote:
Marin wrote:I don't see such a structure on the boat in your photo either unless it's hidden inside the bow wave.*

I've been on a few IGs and was not all that impressed with the cabinetry and the quality of teak used in the boat.*

-- Edited by Marin on Thursday 24th of December 2009 07:22:10 PM
The spray rail is inside the bow wave and I would put the teak on my boat up against any 36 GB. Old or new. It was one of the reasons I went with the 32 IG instead of the GB.
I looked at about 6 GB 32s and none of them held a candle to the IG 32. My humble opinion, of course. Here's a few shots of the bow spray rail.

*


-- Edited by SeaHorse II on Thursday 24th of December 2009 11:35:25 PM

-- Edited by SeaHorse II on Thursday 24th of December 2009 11:51:44 PM
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Old 12-24-2009, 10:47 PM   #31
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RE: Grand Banks vs. ?

Walt, Marin,
I've got to take somethin back. After looking at both avitars and Marin's other picture I don't think either boat has low freeboard.

Eric Henning
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Old 12-24-2009, 10:55 PM   #32
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RE: Grand Banks vs. ?

Eric:* The freeboard on the IG 32 could be better but has not been a problem in a seaway.
It's almost identical to the GB 32, maybe even a little more.
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Old 12-25-2009, 02:15 AM   #33
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RE: Grand Banks vs. ?

Well, it's a bit apples and oranges. The GB32 is a completely different kind of boat than yours. Not as fast, different configuration altogether. The teak does look very nice in your boat. It's plantation teak as opposed to Burmese teak, but that's to be expected in recent years since Burmese teak has become staggeringly expensive and the import regulations make it tough to get. Most of it is laundered through Malaysia and Indonesia (don't ask me how I know). I'm not sure anyone uses Burmese teak anymore except really high end yachts. That's one nice thing about the old boats. The teak is spectacular, even on the middle-of-the-road brands.
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Old 12-25-2009, 02:20 AM   #34
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RE: Grand Banks vs. ?

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nomadwilly wrote:

I don't think either boat has low freeboard.
Depends on how you define low freeboard.* It's an easy step from our side deck at the boarding gate to the dock.* Most other trawler-type boats seem to have more freeboard and a much more difficult step up or down, and some are almost inaccessible from the dock without a step stool.* But compared to Carey's lobsterboat, for instance, our boat does have somewhat higher freeboard.* There is a 36' Island Gypsy on our dock, same tri-cabin design, but the step up to the side deck is noticeably higher.

*
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Old 12-25-2009, 12:08 PM   #35
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RE: Grand Banks vs. ?

Looks like about the same kind of bow Marin*** .. wide and heavy. That knuckle about 10" below the cap rail on the GB acts like a spray rail I'll bet. Spray rails deflect the water a bit (depending on design) but they do an even better job of turning good honest water (or slop) into fine spray. When the water rides up the bow of my Willard there's nothing to disturb it. The bow is light enough such that it rises quickly so the difference in the hull rising and the water is less and when the water passes the cap rail it's heavy slop**** .. the wind can't blow solid water very well so the boat stays amazingly dry. The boat being rather short rotates easily. With a longer wider flatter stern the boat will drive the bow into the head sea creating a bigger and higher bow wave untill submarine status is achieved. Or if spray rails and/or knuckles break the slop up into finer water the wind promptly blows it all over the boat. The ability for the stern to drop and the bow to rise is probably one of the main reasons double ended boats have such a fine reputation of seaworthyness.
Freeboard?* Wayyyy too many trawlers have excessive freeboard so even if yours is a little bit shy I'd call it a virtue. A low slung boat may be a little wetter but I'd take that any day over too much windage and a high CG.

Eric Henning
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Old 12-25-2009, 01:56 PM   #36
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Eric---

I hope you and yours are having a fine Christmas day. It's dead sunny here, but cold. This is NOT what I left Hawaii for. I had enough of the stupid sun over there to last a lifetime. I'd much rather we had three or four feet of snow right now under a solid overcast with about 5 knots of wind. THAT's what Christmas is supposed to be. Christmas in Hawaii--- sunny, about 80 degrees, blue sky, puffy white clouds--- is just WRONG. Even as a dumb little kid, when we moved to Hawaii from Sausalito (CA) in 1955 and had our first Christmas in Honolulu, I knew the place was a freak of nature and man should never have gotten of the boat when they first saw it.* With so many really neat places on the planet, going to Hawaii is like rolling up your money and setting fire to it. Pointless. If one insists on going to a warm island for vacation, for God's sake, go to Malta, or Reunion, or somewhere in Greece.

Sorry. Even after being released from Hawaii for thirty years the place still pisses me off. I find it interesting that now that they are retiring, many of the people I used to work with are moving here. Better late than never, is what they tell me. * Be very, very grateful you are where you are up there in SE Alaska. Now THAT's a truly worthwhile place to go.*

Anyway, the knuckle you talk about that runs the length of our boat below the caprail is called (by GB anyway) a rub rail as opposed to spray rail. It sticks out about six inches, if that, and I believe is there simply to hold the hull off pilings or whatever I might be stupid enough to run into. If water got that far up the side of the boat I guess it would have the effect you describe but I don't think that's why it's there.

I'm not sure about the theory behind the other "rub rail" the strake that lies longitudinally just above the waterline along the aft fourth of the hull. Most trawler type boats seem to have this--- even the woody GBs have it. Maybe it's there to reduce stern "squat" when the boat is at cruise speed?* (if you can call what a GB does "speed.")* Or maybe it's supposed to help dampen pitching. Again, I suspect you know far more about this aspect of hull design than I do.

And I agree about low freeboard. It would not bother me if our boat had even less of it, at least in the stern third but they had to accommodate a full-headroom aft cabin. Like the older-configuration tugs that are still used on the inside waters in this area and yours, I don't mind water slopping up over the low aft deck as long as it has a way to run off and can't get down into the boat.

I think Carey's lobsterboat has an ideal hull configuration-- relatively high bow, but low, user-friendly afterbody. Same thing with the Victory Tug, which I know you don't much care for but which I think has a pretty user-friendly hull judging from the one that was on our dock for a couple of years. Also, since the deck of a GB is basically at the same level as the full-length rub strip, the actual step from a dock to the deck is pretty easy as the attached photo shows.

How long does it take you, assuming your not fighting a bad current, to get from Thorne Bay to Ketchikan?

Anyway, have a good day and holiday season, and don't let the black bears swipe your Christmas dinner.* And if you decide you just HAVE to go somewhere sunny and warm, here is my suggestion (two photos).* Even the boats are more interesting than Hawaii....




-- Edited by Marin on Friday 25th of December 2009 03:35:02 PM
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Old 12-25-2009, 01:56 PM   #37
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RE: Grand Banks vs. ?

Quote:
Marin wrote:"The teak does look very nice in your boat. It's plantation teak as opposed to Burmese teak, but that's to be expected in recent years since Burmese teak has become staggeringly expensive and the import regulations make it tough to get.* I'm not sure anyone uses Burmese teak anymore except really high end yachts."
Not meant to belabor my point but rather to correct the record, the statement below was copied off the standard equipment list of the IG 32 Gourmet Cruiser.


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Old 12-25-2009, 02:16 PM   #38
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Grand Banks vs. ?

Okay, but what is in your photos is still plantation teak whether or not it's from "Burma." People use the term Burmese Teak these days as a marketing term--- it's applied to wood that could come from anywhere. The straight, narrow uniform grain, uniform color, and almost complete lack of figuring are the giveaways.* Also true Burmese teak is not golden---the wood importers I've been dealing with tell me that's another marketing term---- but is considerably darker than what your photos show.

None of this is an implication that your boat is poorly finished., It's just that the teak available today is nothing like the teak that was used by even the inexpensive "Taiwan" trawler folks in the 60s, 70s, and even 80s.* For all I know, even GB today uses plantation "Golden Burmese Teak" veneer in their boats, same as yours.* Because of projects with our boat that required the purchase of small amounts of actual Burmese teak in order to match grain and figuring characteristics, I've learned a lot about this wood from the couple of companies in this area that have made "arrangements" to bring it in.* It's a little like Prohibition days, apparently.

If they had used true Burmese teak on your boat, it would have cost twice what you paid for it. Well, not quite but you get the idea.




-- Edited by Marin on Friday 25th of December 2009 03:29:21 PM
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Old 12-25-2009, 10:02 PM   #39
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RE: Grand Banks vs. ?

Hey Marin, Half the world lives in the Southern Hemisphere where Christmas occurs in the Summertime. I think they would disagree with you....and I am typing this from Hawaii. Merry Christmas!!!
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Old 12-25-2009, 10:06 PM   #40
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RE: Grand Banks vs. ?

Also, one of the reasons your boat is so thick is that plastic boats were not a science in the 70s...or 80s for that matter. So they overbuilt them because that is what everybody thought was the proper way to build boats. My 1982 Prairie was every bit of an inch and half thick if not more.

PS...you forgot about the GB44 in your new boat line of GBs.
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