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Old 05-18-2010, 08:04 PM   #101
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RE: Getting Used to Fear

Quote:
Marin wrote:
Single engine boats are frickin' BORING!
I know..... sometime I just wander aimlessly around the docks with all the extra time I have with maintaining just one engine that I can walk around!

HOLLYWOOD
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Old 05-18-2010, 08:45 PM   #102
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Getting Used to Fear

Quote:
hollywood8118 wrote:

*
Marin wrote:
Single engine boats are frickin' BORING!
I know..... sometime I just wander aimlessly around the docks with all the extra time I have with maintaining just one engine that I can walk around.
Given that I spend an average of problably*less than*one hour every six months maintaining these piece of crap Lehmans,*if you've ever had a twin you*must have had absolutely hideous engines to deal with if you actually notice the reduced time you spend maintaining just one.

On the other hand, I know some people with single engine boats who spend more time in one month*trying to get their one*engine to work right than*I and our diesel shop combined*have spent dealing with our engines in the last 12 years.

This "two engines are more time consuming and*trouble than one" rule is total bullsh*t in my observation and opinion.

I think operating a single engine boat is like eating at Denny's.* You get fed but what a yawn.*

My all-time favorite boat was powered with three of these things.* Now THIS was running a boat.* Anything less--- and that includes a GB with two piss-ant little Lehmans in it--- is just wannabe boating in my opinion.



-- Edited by Marin on Tuesday 18th of May 2010 08:46:13 PM
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Old 05-19-2010, 12:23 AM   #103
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Getting Used to Fear

Quote:
Marin wrote:

*
hollywood8118 wrote:

*
Marin wrote:
Single engine boats are frickin' BORING!
I know..... sometime I just wander aimlessly around the docks with all the extra time I have with maintaining just one engine that I can walk around.
Given that I spend an average of problably*less than*one hour every six months maintaining these piece of crap Lehmans,*if you've ever had a twin you*must have had absolutely hideous engines to deal with if you actually notice the reduced time you spend maintaining just one.

On the other hand, I know some people with single engine boats who spend more time in one month*trying to get their one*engine to work right than*I and our diesel shop combined*have spent dealing with our engines in the last 12 years.

This "two engines are more time consuming and*trouble than one" rule is total bullsh*t in my observation and opinion.

I think operating a single engine boat is like eating at Denny's.* You get fed but what a yawn.*

My all-time favorite boat was powered with three of these things.* Now THIS was running a boat.* Anything less--- and that includes a GB with two piss-ant little Lehmans in it--- is just wannabe boating in my opinion.



-- Edited by Marin on Tuesday 18th of May 2010 08:46:13 PM
*

I guess you and I have a different idea regarding why we do boats.... I cannot wait to drop the hook and turn off the noise makers!, and of course your right... what was I thinking!, there is no way it takes more time to maintain two engines. When I wash the car is takes the same amount of time to wash one as two, or paint the house... same amount of time to do two... oh that's right it takes the same amount of time to maintain two boats as it does one!, on this I call B.S. While I enjoyed my years around drag boat racing... it has nothing to do with Trawlers and Trawlering. And since we seem to be having the discussion on who's is bigger.... the Rolls Royce Griffon.... now that was an impressive engine! and yes I knowin the pic* it's not in a drag boat.[img]download.spark?ID=723861&aBID=115492[/img]

*


-- Edited by hollywood8118 on Wednesday 19th of May 2010 12:24:56 AM
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Old 05-19-2010, 12:33 AM   #104
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Getting Used to Fear

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what was I thinking!, there is no way it takes more time to maintain two engines. ...
And since we seem to be having the discussion on who's is bigger.... the Rolls Royce Griffon.... now that was an impressive engine!
Yes, or objectives in boating are totally opposite.* To me boating is all about the journey.* The arriving there and being*there*has relatively*little interest to me.* It's just a place to start the next phase of the journey.* Like flying, I'm happiest when*underway.* That's why we (my wife feels the same way) got into boating in the first place.* We have no interest in hanging out at marinas on trips, very little interest in hanging out with other boaters on trips, no interest in*things like GB rendezvous and the like.* We are not social boaters.**We bought the boat to be on the move on the water as much as possible.* To us, shutting off the engines is a major*bummer because it means that phase of the journey is over, just like landing the floatplane is always a bummer because it means that leg of the flight is over.* On our longer cruises we run eight, ten hours a day.* We'd go longer, daylight permitting,*except we can't because we get to where we're supposed to be going.

I can't stand sitting around when we could be on the move, seeing new things around the next corner (which is why we have no interest in open-ocean cruising--- no corners and nothing to see).* Even if it's the same corner we've rounded dozens of times before, on the water it always holds the promise of something new.* I cannot relate at all to people who cruise to a marina and then sit around there for few days.*That would drive me absolutely bonkers.* Same thing with an anchorage.* Get in there, drop the hook, spend the night, and the next day head out to see new things.

As to one*vs two engines, I*didn't claim that it takes no more time to maintain two than one.* I said this myth that maintaining two takes tons of time while maintaining one takes little time is BS.* Sure, it takes twice as long to maintain two engines, but since engines (in decent shape) take so little maintenance anyway, the difference is irrelevant in the overall scheme of things.* So I spend an hour every six months and the guy with a single spends 30 minutes.* Either way, it's an insignificant amount of time.* Not a valid*reason in my book to select a single over a twin.* There are other reasons to select one over the other but maintenance time isn't one of them.

As to the sleeve-valve Griffon, great engine no question,*but it's not a marine engine (in spite of being used in Miss Bud).* The engine in the picture I posted was designed from the outset as a marine engine.* Try again.....



-- Edited by Marin on Wednesday 19th of May 2010 02:10:39 AM
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Old 05-19-2010, 12:36 AM   #105
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Getting Used to Fear

Marin, You tell us what pieces of crap your Lehmans are and then you boast about how little maintenance they require.....I don't understand?

-- Edited by Baker on Wednesday 19th of May 2010 12:44:58 AM
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Old 05-19-2010, 01:11 AM   #106
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Getting Used to Fear

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Marin, You tell us what pieces of crap your Lehmans are and then you boast about how little maintenance they require.....I don't understand?

-- Edited by Baker on Wednesday 19th of May 2010 12:44:58 AM

I think we've had this discussion.....

First of all, my comments about low maintenance of marine diesels applies to all of them, not just the Lehman.

But as far as the Lehman goes, they are crap by today's standards.* They're like steam locomotives.* Great in their day, and the last ones took relatively little maintenance (in comparison to the older ones) but*their day is long gone no matter how reliable they were.* There's a reason they don't make them anymore.*

The fact Lehmans take very little maintenance doesn't change they fact they're outdated, over-the-hill engines in my book.* They're inefficient, they're ridiculously heavy for their power output, or put another way, they're ridiculously underpowered for their size and weight, they're noisy, they generate a lot of vibration, they put out a lot of pollution if you care about such things.... they're crap.* The fact they*have*a repuation*for being long-lived doesn't mean they're in the same league as today's diesels, it*just means they're heavy,*underpowered, old-technolgy, noisy, polluting engines*that run for a long time.

Which is the better engine, the JT-3 or the GE-115?* The JT3 was the engine used on the initial production version of the 707 and it did a great job in its day, but by today's engine standards it's garbage.* Same thing with the Lehman engines.* Great in 1950, 1960 but this is 2010.* By 2010 standards, they're crap.* They're too expensive to change, otherwise I'd change them out in a heartbeat.

Is that clear enough
-- Edited by Marin on Wednesday 19th of May 2010 01:14:13 AM
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Old 05-19-2010, 04:12 AM   #107
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"I guess you and I have a different idea regarding why we do boats.... I cannot wait to drop the hook and turn off the noise makers!, "

That's why they invented SAILS !

And that is why most sail boaters have superior systems for maintaining a lifestyle than a 24/7 noisemaker.

"Great in 1950, 1960 but this is 2010.* By 2010 standards, they're crap.* They're too expensive to change, otherwise I'd change them out in a heartbeat."

And the 2010 engine will have a computer , to carry how many spairs for and perhaps injectors that run $1200 each , and demand really clean fuel.

Fuel is cheap , my preference on a motorboat is an engine that DIES SLOWLY, so the reliability is #1.

The 1936 designed , 6-71 is my choice to get home , yes its almost 3000lbs yes it will only give 16 hp instead of 22 hp from a gal of fuel.

But with no turbo , intercooler , afttercooler and no electronics besides a starter motor , it "works for me".


-- Edited by FF on Wednesday 19th of May 2010 04:18:19 AM
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Old 05-19-2010, 07:02 AM   #108
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Getting Used to Fear

It's interesting to look at the different way's we look at boating... I know I use all my boats ( current fleet count is 5 ) for totally different things. My trawler to go to far away places in comfort, my 59 22' sea skiff for classic nostalgia and a project, our comp ski boat for skiing and the lake boat experence. When we were sailors ... and we still do some sailing but dont currently own one. We crossed oceans and spent years out cruising under sail but now love the trawler lifestyle. One of the things I love about trawlers is the technical aspect of putting together all the systems of the boat and having it be self suffecient and to be able to spend long amounts of time away from the* dock. The boat for me is a vehicle to see and experience life.* To me the best moments of my life have been spent in secluded or far away places... with the anchor down... sitting on the back of the boat ...beer in hand... master of my domain. I do love the sound of the naturally aspirated John Deere as it takes me to those places, but the true happiness starts as the snubber is set, and the big beast pops and clicks as she cools down after shutdown!
HOLLYWOOD
[img]download.spark?ID=723972&aBID=115492[/img]


-- Edited by hollywood8118 on Wednesday 19th of May 2010 07:04:18 AM
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Old 05-19-2010, 07:54 AM   #109
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RE: Getting Used to Fear

Hollywood:*
Great synopsis of the boating lifestyle! The photo is teriffic and says it all.
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Old 05-19-2010, 09:01 AM   #110
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RE: Getting Used to Fear

Amen!!!
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Old 05-19-2010, 09:37 AM   #111
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RE: Getting Used to Fear

Someone once said

"it's not the vessel it's the voyage"

Or was it vice versa?

SD
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Old 05-19-2010, 10:06 AM   #112
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RE: Getting Used to Fear

We've anchored in exactly the same spot as Hollywood's photo. Nice place, great view, peaceful, we enjoyed it. But we liked it better the next morning when we got underway again.
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Old 05-19-2010, 12:52 PM   #113
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Getting Used to Fear

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FF wrote:

The 1936 designed , 6-71 is my choice to get home , yes its almost 3000lbs yes it will only give 16 hp instead of 22 hp from a gal of fuel.


That's because you're old, FF.* Old people tend to prefer things that were current when they were in their prime, be it cars, engines, planes, you name it. Since most people tend to think of themselves as when they were "current," they tend to hold the things that were "current" along with them as being the best.* So old people tend not to trust computers, injectors that cost $1200 apiece are seen as evil, and so on.

That's fine, we all do it, but it's not realistic.

The reality is that computers are more reliable today than the old mechanical systems were even in their heyday, and given inflation, the increased cost of labor, etc., a $1200 modern injector probably costs in real value no more or less than an injector did decades ago.*

The kids of my co-workers are as much at home with electronics, computers, iPhones, and all the rest of it than we were with pushrod V-8s, rotary phones, and radial engines.* The first time my cameraman took out his old turntable to transfer some records to CD, his three kids, the oldest of which was in his early teens, took one look at the "technology" and told him it wouldn't work.* "There's no way a disk with a warp like that will ever track," the oldest one said (who just graduated from college with a job offer from an internet search company for $70,000 a year with a $25,000 signing bonus).* They were amazed when my friend put the needle on the record and music came out.* And they thought the technology was absolutely hillarious.* In a "how stupid is THAT" way.

It's called progress, and while old people tend to fight it, it's the only reason we're not all riding horses and taking two-year sailing voyages when we want to go on vacation to England.

When you get right down to it, it's why old people die so that younger people can take over and move things along.

The 6-71, the Lehman, the old Perkins-- are dead engines.* Like old people, they're hanging on for the time being but they're not the sort of thing you want to stake your future on.* The sooner we can move on the better, in my opinion.

Interesting study that was done in England awhile back..... When you walk up to a friend's house and ring the doorbell, what finger do you use to push the button?* Old people-- by which the study defined (IIRC) as people over 40, use their forefinger.* Most young people, particularly kids, teens, and early twenties, use their thumb.* Why?** Because old people grew up using their forefinger to dial a phone, either rotary or pushbutton.* Young people use their thumbs to dial cell phones or write text messages.* To old people, the forefinger is the primary communication digit.* To young people, it's the thumb.* True story.




-- Edited by Marin on Wednesday 19th of May 2010 01:01:19 PM
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Old 05-19-2010, 01:01 PM   #114
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RE: Getting Used to Fear

Quote:
Marin wrote:To old people, the forefinger is the primary communication digit.* To young people, it's the thumb.* True story.
Not to me - the middle finger is the primary comm digit.

You must have seen that one coming!

*
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Old 05-19-2010, 01:14 PM   #115
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RE: Getting Used to Fear

Quote:
SeaHorse II wrote:

Hollywood:*
Great synopsis of the boating lifestyle! The photo is teriffic and says it all.
Thanks!,
We have been fortunate to get in that spot a few times with nobody else in sight, most of the summer it's full of boats and the water at times get's into the 70's. A couple years ago I suggested we try something different for this summer, We are running the boat around the outside and up the Columbia and Snake rivers for the entire summer... the kids want warm weather and warm water so no snow capped mountain views this summer. Not to mention the thought of a bigger adventure keeps me happy enough not to chuck it all and go out cruising again...
Good Boating,
HOLLYWOOD

*
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Old 05-19-2010, 01:38 PM   #116
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RE: Getting Used to Fear

Marin,

What year and hull number is your GB36?
As I recall ours was a 69 woody # 395.
Nice quiet ride the woodies have... but having to keep up on all the teak and a wood hull was a P.I.T.A.
Our first kid came home from the hospital to the boat, moved off when she was three, she has a real connection with boats, second kid not near as much.* I used to strike fear in the old folks in the marina when at age 9 she would bring our current boat into the marina standing at the helm of the flybridge while I sat low in the seat next to her. She seems to be following in the family boating footsteps... yippee!
HOLLYWOOD
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Old 05-19-2010, 04:05 PM   #117
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RE: Getting Used to Fear

Gees Marin,
Chill back a little with the old man, thing of the past engine analogies will ya dude what you have is an opinion- and you are entitled to it.
But you are again waiving a flag that a lot on board are never gonna salute.
I am certain that you are accomplished at what you do for a living. But it ain't assembling and repairing engines. And I am sure that you are wise enough to know that quite often you can get a person togive you what you want to hear. "you made a good/ bad investment". "You have a great/ lousy engine".
I have been insering pistons in holes for over 30 years. Installing crankshafts, adjusting engine valves, replacing crankshaft seals and troubleshooting starting problems. I am good enough at it that I get paid to do it. I have trained numerous young mechanics and enjoy what I do. I am a professional.
Point is, as well as you make your point, you are still wrong. If you want to debate a
mechanical adding machine vs the current, the current is better. You throw it away, and buy a new one for $5.00. But you don't throw an engine away.
Technogy will probably never replace a 2 or 4 stroke IC engine. Government mandates were the reason that electronic engine controls were forced on us. And the new Yanmar, etc. engines while great, are still not a superior choice that you imply
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Old 05-19-2010, 04:18 PM   #118
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Getting Used to Fear

Marin wrote:
"That's because you're old, FF. Old people tend to prefer things that were current when they were in their prime, be it cars, engines, planes, you name it. Since most people tend to think of themselves as when they were "current," they tend to hold the things that were "current" along with them as being the best."

There's a lot of truth in what you say, but a big part of this is experience.
When you've owned tricky KAD Volvos (x2), TA Cummins (x4), sterndrives (x2), you develop a new respect for simplicity and stuff you can easily maintain yourself.

I talk to guys around the yards who have just spent 11k getting an engine rebuilt or 6k on a sterndrive and they say, "at least it's done now, should last another 5 years!" as if these bills are a normal part of boating!

Us older guys wander around boat shows and marvel at the absolute crap being offered for sale, not so much the boats, but the other stuff which nobody needs. I hasten to add that I do have a lap-top based chart-plotter, ipod-based entertainment and more recently, an iphone with Navioncs software. So we're not luddites, just selective.

While not in the 671 league, our hard-mounted 30-year-old Cat 3406B with 18,000 hrs (admittedly rebuilt 700 hours ago), still gives me and my friends a thrill when fired up - and inspires confidence like no other engine I've had.

-- Edited by Bendit on Wednesday 19th of May 2010 07:33:02 PM
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Old 05-19-2010, 04:34 PM   #119
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RE: Getting Used to Fear

The IC 4 cycle gas engine being sold today bears little resemblance to the ICs of 30 years ago. Even in comparison to 10 years ago, what a sea change. Blame it on the government insisting on CO, NOx and mileage standards.*For fun, read the latest Car and Driver for the next wave of engine modifications. It is truly amazing stuff.

Boats are coming along the same curve too, just a few generations back. Tier II diesel engines are quite a marvel, at least the good ones. As I'm sure most of you know, boat gas engines are now ruled over by the EPA. Progress or just an annoyance? I enjoy looking at the forward curve - it has paid my wages for the past, well, many decades.

Marin has a point or two, he is looking at the forward curve. The engnie technology train is leaving for*the next station, always has been, are* you on it? I'm still trying to figure out the 20 cyl Cat 4000 Hp engines my company just bought. Certified tier II for 5000 meters. WOW!
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Old 05-19-2010, 04:36 PM   #120
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Getting Used to Fear

Quote:
Forkliftt wrote:Technogy will probably never replace a 2 or 4 stroke IC engine. Government mandates were the reason that electronic engine controls were forced on us.
The notion that the past and even current generation of engines will be with us forever is totally counter to what I have been told by friends and*business acquaintenances*in the diesel design business, which includes folks from two of the largest diesel manufacturers in the industry.* These last have been in the context of biofuel projects we've been working on within our industry.

So you can hang onto the old technology if you like.* I'm going to put my money with the kids in the lab coats that say Cat and MAN on them

Saying electronics are the result of government mandates is a kind of meaningless arguement, because government mandates aren't going away and in fact*are the realities of what the engine folks have to live by from here on, be they automotive, industrial,*marine,*or aviation engines.* Computers/electronics are the best*way to meet the requirements, so they make the computer systems as reliable as possible.

And it's not all about the government anyway.* Commerical operators, and as fuel prices*continue to*climb, even recreational operators, are demanding increased fuel efficiency, more power for the buck, and so on simply*because it makes economic sense.* In our own industry, sure, there are government requirements for emissions but the real driver for GE, Rolls Royce, and*Pratt to improve the efficiency of their engines are the airplane operators.* I would imagine the same sort of demands are placed on*diesel engine operators by shipping companies, farmers, and anyone else who is trying to make a profit by operating these engines.

So thinking*that perhaps it will all go away and they can dust off the blueprints for the 6-71 and the P&W R-985*and put them back into production*is head-in-the-sand thinking, to my way of looking at it.

I know you didn't say that, but there seems to be this notion that if it wasnt' for the gummint, all these crappy, ineffiicent, polluting engines would still be in vogue.* That may be to a degree, but like it or not, the gummint (and the economic realities of the commercial world)*has determined otherwise.* And in Europe, it's not just the gummint.* The citizens themselves are increasingly*raising holy hell about environmental issues on a daily basis.* Many of them feel--- extremely vocally--- that the gummints are not*doing nearly*enough, and they're not doing what they are doing fast enough.

The one thing you said that I agree with is that the internal combustion engine is going to be with us for a long, long time.* But based on all the engine industry*seminars and working groups we've been involved with the last couple of years, the engines that are coming will be a far, far cry from the Detroits and Lehmans and other museum pieces that all the old farts seem to think are just the bees knees.

And here's one for all of us Lehman owners that I recently learned about.* There is apparently*a move in the EU to ban diesel engines that emit unburned fuel into the water.* Not grandfather the old ones in*( because the newer ones don't do it) but ban them, period.* Anyone who's started a Lehman, particularly on a cold day, and watched the sheen of unburned fuel spread out behind their boat because the temperatures in the cylinders is too low to burn it all, will know what I'm talking about.* Apparently this is an issue with much more than just old Lehmans. There are big engines that*do it, too.* So hang onto your hat, because whatever the EU does will eventually come here.

A good friend in the diesel engine design business told me right after we got our GB and I commented on the startup fuel sheen that this was one of the most difficult things for diesel engine designers to get rid of.* But they have, and electronics is what helped them do it.


-- Edited by Marin on Wednesday 19th of May 2010 05:02:07 PM
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