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Old 05-16-2010, 07:20 AM   #81
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RE: Getting Used to Fear

Yes, but you can hardly go cruising taking a whole spare engine, FF, and that's what Gonzo wants to do - just have a spare starter motor along. Personally, I wouldn't bother because a fully reconditioned starter motor is incredibly reliable, and almost certainly therefore it will be something else which lets go, if anything, and I doubt most cruisers without diesel mechanic experience would have on trying to change a starter motor out on the water anyway, (helluvajob), so subscribe to Sea Tow and save the money, weight and space is my advice Gonzo. It's only worth taking spares for things you are pretty sure you can change yourself, with the tools you have on board.
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Old 05-16-2010, 11:33 AM   #82
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RE: Getting Used to Fear

It was extremely easy to change. It took all of three tools and 10 minutes to get the old out. And took about 30 minutes to put the rebuilt one back in. Mostly because I spent 10 minutes trying to fish the bolt I dropped out of the bilge pan. I figure it's a no-brainer to carry a spare. Even WITH TowBoat US coverage. I'd MUCH rather be under my own power after a 20-minute starter swap than wait literally hours upon hours to be "rescued".

Although, FF has a good point. A spare engine would be a great idea, but I would only keep it on an engine stand in the garage to either sift parts off of, or to have rebuilt it myself for a future engine swap should something horrible befall my current power plant.

The question is: Where do you find a nearly whole 6.354M for a couple-hundred bucks? I am skeptical.
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Old 05-17-2010, 04:10 AM   #83
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RE: Getting Used to Fear

You can't carry all the spares, but I carry spare starter, generator, injectors (2 off Main Eng and 1 for Gen Eng) a few adjustable injector fuel lines, plus all the spare pump impellers, hoses, jointing material I may need to carry out repairs.
Down our way and out where I cruise there is no Sea Tow so if you can't repair it it is on the HF to see if you can be salvaged.
Unless you are cruising the crowded waterways where help is usually at hand you should have a basic understanding of your systems and a basic knowledge of how to do some repairs or change components.

Benn
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Old 05-17-2010, 04:29 AM   #84
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RE: Getting Used to Fear

Where do you find a nearly whole 6.354M for a couple-hundred bucks? I am skeptical.

Craigs list would be the place to post a FREE wanted add.

Spare injectors and esp the pipes to them , the fuel lift pump and even the injectot pump , IF you have Da Book , so it could be installed.

The starter and rebuilt cylinder head takes little room and could save a couple of grand (new gaskets required) .

A torque wrench is about $20 at Sears.

Exhaust risers and even the manifolds might not take much space and could save major bucks , but then there is always JB Weld .

FF
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Old 05-17-2010, 09:31 AM   #85
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RE: Getting Used to Fear

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Peter B wrote:

Yes, but you can hardly go cruising taking a whole spare engine.....
We do, every time we go out.*
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Old 05-17-2010, 09:46 AM   #86
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RE: Getting Used to Fear

Spare engine?

Sure it's called twins.

Best and only reason for 2 on a boat. IMHO

SD
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Old 05-17-2010, 10:29 AM   #87
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Getting Used to Fear

Quote:
skipperdude wrote:Best and only reason for 2 on a boat. IMHO
Or.... if you just like operating engines, as I do.* As I've said before, I'd have three of them on our boat if we could.* I like running multiple engines--- adds another element to operating a boat (or plane).* The economy of a single engine, plus the reduced maintenance and service time and expense, is certainly appealing.* But we chartered a single-engine GB before we bought the boat we have, and while we did not go into our GB purchase caring if we got a single or a twin, I'm glad we ended up with a twin as it makes running the boat a lot more fun (for me).* By comparison (for me) running a single engine boat is just a tad boring.

Don't misinterpret me--- there are single engine boats I prefer to the GB--- at least in terms of their designs; their build quality is an unknown to me.* The top two are the Victory Tug and the Krogen.* But strictly talking running engines, I much prefer running two (or more) than just one.

Years ago I had the opportunity to do some filming from an oil rig service boat off Southern California.* The boat I was on had three engines, as did most of the rig boats at that time.* Three engines and no bow thruster.* To watch the skipper of that boat manipulate those three engines to hold the boat in an exact position and alignment in rather lumpy water while the rig's crane operator picked stuff off the deck impressed the hell out of me.* This was long before I got into operating a boat myself, so today, I have even more appreciation for that fellow's abilities.

There are two rules I believe in when it comes to power.* In cars, planes, boats, and lawnmowers, there's no such thing as too much power.* And in boats there's no such thing as too many engines.

*


-- Edited by Marin on Monday 17th of May 2010 10:36:25 AM
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Old 05-17-2010, 12:30 PM   #88
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RE: Getting Used to Fear

Hiya,
** Gotta love the clickety/clackity of those diesels.* When they're "working" nothing beats the sound.
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Old 05-17-2010, 01:11 PM   #89
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RE: Getting Used to Fear

Right on Marin. The best place for spare parts is indeed that already perfectly running spare engine, and drive train!!

Be ready, somebody is about to chime in with "yeah how about bad fuel though - doesn't help twins?" And more Blah blah blither blather--------------.
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Old 05-17-2010, 01:30 PM   #90
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RE: Getting Used to Fear

I must chime in only to say that as this was our FIRST big boat purchase, that I have had no experience with working on diesels, AND that we didn't want to make the mistake of buying too much boat for our first while trying to keep costs down... I am very happy with my single-screw... for now. I'm fairly sure we'll get a dually when next time rolls around, but for now, a single is right for us.
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Old 05-17-2010, 01:56 PM   #91
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RE: Getting Used to Fear

Gonzo, I think you hit a homerun with your first boating purchase. That is an excellent choice for a boat. Lotsa room....low operating costs...and low maintenance. Some people like to tinker with boats...others like to be out there on them. The easier and cheaper the boat is to operate and maintain, the more likely you will be out there on it!!!!
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Old 05-17-2010, 06:57 PM   #92
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Getting Used to Fear

Quote:
sunchaser wrote:

Right on Marin. The best place for spare parts is indeed that already perfectly running spare engine, and drive train!!

Be ready, somebody is about to chime in with "yeah how about bad fuel though - doesn't help twins?" And more Blah blah blither blather--------------.
Ah... the two vs. one debate!

Docking is one of the rare occasions that two may be better, but I have to point out that my single with a thruster works pretty damn good, My GB36 single was a handfull by comparison ( no thruster and way less volume in the water). In our area, with a fair amount of debris in the water I feel way more comfortable with a protected single and skeg mounted rudder than twins and spade rudders. The likely event of a single quitting while running is less likely that hitting something and being left with no power and steerage.* I also appreciate only having one main to service and to be able to walk around it! ( chime in here Delfin ). I have no issue with the thought of crossing an ocean on one main engine... but the Admiral will require the install of a get home engine to be happy.*

*


-- Edited by hollywood8118 on Monday 17th of May 2010 09:13:22 PM
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Old 05-17-2010, 08:44 PM   #93
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Getting Used to Fear

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sunchaser wrote:Be ready, somebody is about to chime in with "yeah how about bad fuel though - doesn't help twins?" And more Blah blah blither blather--------------.
While there is no question that bad fuel can stop one, two, or ten engines, I have yet to meet anyone who's had an engine problem due to bad fuel.* I know it happens--- I've seen the occasional post to the T&T list about someone getting bad fuel or water in the fuel and having problems.* But in the past twelve years I've not talked to anyone who has ever actually had this problem.

On the other hand, I have talked to lots of people (inlcuding ourselves) who have had to shut down the engine (or an engine) due to cooling problems (the most common problem I've heard about and experienced), injector problems, fuel leaks, coolant leaks, failed pumps (fuel, coolant, and raw water), broken exaust components, failed transmission, fouled prop (on singles as much or more than on twins), failed cutless bearing, or couldn't get the engine (or an engine) started at all due to failed starter, failed battery, or some other failed component in the electrical starting system.

All of these problems are limited to the engine they effect, not both of them.* Although I suppose it's statistically possible that the raw water pumps or a* fuel hose or whatever could fail on both engines in a twin on the same leg of a cruise.

So based on all this, while I won't deny the "bad fuel can stop both engines argument" it seems that, while possible, it almost never happens.* And it most definitely never happens nearly as much as all the other problems that can cause an engine to be shut down or not start in the first place.

So we don't concern ourselves with the "bad fuel" argument.

*


-- Edited by Marin on Monday 17th of May 2010 08:46:28 PM
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Old 05-17-2010, 09:32 PM   #94
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RE: Getting Used to Fear

"While there is no question that bad fuel can stop one, two, or ten engines, I have yet to meet anyone who's had an engine problem due to bad fuel.* I know it happens--- I've seen the occasional post to the T&T list about someone getting bad fuel or water in the fuel and having problems.* But in the past twelve years I've not talked to anyone who has ever actually had this problem."

Again, the issue is what do you want to do with your boat.... coastal cruising, near home, less than 500 miles?? twins are fine.
Want to go further??, I bought our boat with plans to do the pacific west coast, Mexico,Panama,The Carrribean, the great loop. We have a conservative range of 3000 miles, 4000 if we drop a knot. Not too many under 50' twins can match this.* Look at commercial tuna, crab,tugs and most ships...... all singles for a reason, although some ships have multi engines to one shaft. As far as efficeincy you can not beat a single. But, it only matters if you plan long distance voyaging.* Still, where I live I wouldnt want a twin. When we were GB owners the singles were the most sought after!

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Old 05-17-2010, 10:10 PM   #95
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RE: Getting Used to Fear

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*
When we were GB owners the singles were the most sought after!


*

That's because they're the cheapest * The lead GB broker in our marina, a good friend of ours, once told me that while single-engine GBs are always in demand, the people who buy them always say, "We'd prefer a twin but we can't afford it."

Go figure.......

*
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Old 05-18-2010, 07:53 AM   #96
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RE: Getting Used to Fear

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Marin wrote:

*
hollywood8118 wrote:

*
When we were GB owners the singles were the most sought after!


*

That's because they're the cheapest The lead GB broker in our marina, a good friend of ours, once told me that while single-engine GBs are always in demand, the people who buy them always say, "We'd prefer a twin but we can't afford it."

Go figure.......

*

*

Ok , so what is your point.... do we own trawlers so we can dig holes in the water and have high fuel bills??, ever seen what happens to a strut mounted prop/rudder when it clips a deadhead ( oh that's right... that never happens in washington ). It is a proven fact that a twin uses more fuel and has higher operating cost. Thats my point. Give a diesel clean fuel and they almost never quit. Have I had the raw water pump fail?... absolutely ... when I didn't replace the $ 30.00 impeller at pre season maint.* Because I have open access in the engine room it takes about 10 minutes to change the impeller. Does a boat ( such as a GB36 which I like by the way) need twins to operate for what it was designed to do.... nope.* Want to go fast.. twins are great. Some people feel more comfortable docking a twin, I can spin my 50' boat in a 60' space without too much trouble. I have even found I can walk my boat sideways off the dock if I have about 10' of room to spare. It is all in what you feel comfortable with!

*
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Old 05-18-2010, 12:00 PM   #97
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RE: Getting Used to Fear

Oh boy! ANOTHER single vs twins debate
If I were planning on the trips that HW is I would prefer a single. The first trawler I ever got on had a single Perkins. I pulled the floor up and fell in love!
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Old 05-18-2010, 01:08 PM   #98
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Getting Used to Fear

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hollywood8118 wrote:
Ok , so what is your point....
I think the single vs twin argument is the most pointless discussion on the planet after the one defending the Tea Party.

My point was that--- according to the broker--- most of the GB buyers that have paraded through the local dealer mostly seem to WANT twins but some will SETTLE for singles because their purchase prices are lower.* I have talked to some of these buyers and they are almost appologetic abut the fact that they bought a single.* Given the cost of GBs and the perhaps typical profile of the buyers of newer GBs, this may well have more to do with status than with actual operating costs and advantages/disadvantages.

As I've stated before, I have no preference for singles vs twins outside of the fact that I like running engines so the more of them the better.* The added fuel cost of a twin is irrelevant to the way we operate our boat. The added fuel cost of the second engine is such a tiny fraction of our overall ownership costs we virtually ignore it.* Were we into crossing oceans and stuff, the efficiency of a single would make it the only logical choice.* But we're not.

There are times when the added maintenance/repair costs are not insignificant, as when we had all the engine mounts replaced and both exhaust systems.* Or props tuned or shafts replaced.* But these are not regular occurances.* Buying two raw water impellers instead of one is an insignificant cost increase, buying 24 quarts of oil instead of 12 every 100-200 hours is another one.* So is buying two sets of oil filters instead of two.

So outside of the major work, the operating costs of twins vs. singles (assuming the same engine type) is not worth bothering about in our opinion.

What is FAR, FAR more important than the additional cost of operating the second engine is that both of us, and my wife in particular, feel more confident with a second engine under the floor.* Particularly when the engines in questions are 37-year old relics that should have been retired to an exhibit in the*London Science Museum*decades ago.

As I've said before, we've flown a single-engine floatplane with an "ancient" engine up and down the Inside Passage more times than we can remember and never once worried about having only one engine.* But with the boat, we prefer the redundancy.* We like not having to rely on commercial tow services if we have a problem.* We've needed the spare engine four times since owning the boat, and each time we completed our journey with no hassles and no expensive tow lines.* Some areas where we boat have good commercial towboat coverage, some have no coverage at all.* Given the currents and the very real possibilty of being carried into something unyielding if the only engine quits, we like having the second engine to virtually eliminate that possibility.*

As I've said, I know or have met far more people who've had to shut down their only engine because of damage to or fouling of their prop or rudder than I know people with twins who had to shut an engine down for the same reason.* This despite the obvious fact that the shafts, props, and rudders of a twin are far more exposed.* I'm sure others can quote the opposite observation, but that's been ours.

So based on our experience and observation over the last twelve years my summary opinion of twins vs singles is that for all practical purposes, it doesn't make any difference what you have.* The cost differences are largely hypothetical or blown out of proportion by armchair theories.* I believe the running gear vulnerability has far more to do with how the boat is operated and the vigilance of the operator rather than the actual location of the running gear.

The maneuverabily differences are insignificant to non-existant.* Carey and I watched the skipper of a single engine river tug (standard prop and rudder, nothing fancy, 12V-71 Detroit engine, no thruster) maneuver the new breakwater/dock for the Ganges Marina into position one night and that guy did things with his tug that an experienced recreational boater couldn't come close to duplicating with a twin engine boat.* Carey is a far better boat handler in his single-engine custom lobsterboat than I am in our GB twin.* It's got nothing to do with the number of engines, props, or rudders.* It's because he's a far better boat handler than I am.** Yes, his boat has a bow thruster but I can count on one hand the time's I've seen him use it.* On the other hand, I can put a 70', 25-ton, single engine narrowboat wth tiller steering anywhere I want to put it on the UK canals because I've done it a lot and I understand how the boat pivots, how it's mass reacts with inertia and so on.

I think there are only three truly valid arguments when it comes to how many engines are best.* First is the design of the boat.* Some designs only work with one engine installation.* Most commercial fish boats, lobsterboats. most displacement recreational boats like Willards, Krogens, Nordhavn's, the various "tug" designs, etc.* Sticking in a second engine and running gear would seriously mess up the design and the allotment or use of spaces inside the boat.

Second, if very long distance cruising is the objective.* While I believe the fuel costs between singles and twins is not worth bothering about for local and coastal cruising, it can become a factor in long-distance cruising.* Even more important is fuel storage.* If you can't carry enough fuel to feed the engine(s) over the distance, you can't go.* Add to this the fact that most powerboat designs for long distance cruising are better suited for--- or can only accomodate--- one engine, this configuration makes the most sense.

Third, speed.* If you're in a hurry, more engines will get you there faster.

Other than those three things, I believe singles vs. twins is six of one, half dozen of the other.

*


-- Edited by Marin on Tuesday 18th of May 2010 05:24:51 PM
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Old 05-18-2010, 06:45 PM   #99
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RE: Getting Used to Fear

Single engine boat are best!

Now let's see how many paragraphs Marin can retort with. *This took me a few seconds.
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Old 05-18-2010, 07:25 PM   #100
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RE: Getting Used to Fear

Quote:
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Single engine boat are best!

Now let's see how many paragraphs Marin can retort with. *This took me a few seconds.
Single engine boats are frickin' BORING!

*
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