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Old 10-18-2010, 08:38 AM   #21
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Get rid of old propane stove?

Hiya,
***
* http://www.abycinc.org/committees/A-01.pdf

Mr. koliver.* NOT regulations, suggested standards.***Their use is entirely voluntary

-- Edited by RT Firefly on Monday 18th of October 2010 08:53:46 AM

-- Edited by RT Firefly on Monday 18th of October 2010 08:55:23 AM
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Old 10-18-2010, 11:33 AM   #22
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RE: Get rid of old propane stove?

"Personally, I would LOVE to keep propane for stove/range. I have never installed such a system myself though. If I can get a new RV grade range I'd be up for it."

IF you can settle for a good used RV range , you can have my old one for free.

Not marine , no gymbols .

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Old 10-19-2010, 10:47 AM   #23
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RE: Get rid of old propane stove?

With respect to the continuous hose from tank/regulator/solenoid to the appliance, does this mean that one needs a separate hose for each appliance served, or can one hose go to a manifold?
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Old 10-19-2010, 11:43 AM   #24
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RE: Get rid of old propane stove?

Hiya,
** Ashapiro, that question MAY be covered in the link I posted.
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Old 10-19-2010, 12:19 PM   #25
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RE: Get rid of old propane stove?

Ashapiro,
that is a great question! I read through the entire PDF that RT Firefly posted and saw no mention of 2 appliances and how to run lines to them??? I would assume maybe a manifold @ the tank/locker itself would be the safest route so as to not have fittings in the cabin walls or bilge.
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Old 10-19-2010, 01:34 PM   #26
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RE: Get rid of old propane stove?

We use a simple set of T fittings as the reefer is on all the time, the range only with the solenoid.

Remember the solenoid will eat 3/4A or so while the range is on.
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Old 10-19-2010, 01:36 PM   #27
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RE: Get rid of old propane stove?

Hiya,
** WS, thanks.* I would think a manifold in* the open air would be better/safer in the open air rather than* in/on a bulkhead as well.
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Old 10-19-2010, 03:25 PM   #28
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RE: Get rid of old propane stove?

Quote:
ashapiro wrote:

With respect to the continuous hose from tank/regulator/solenoid to the appliance, does this mean that one needs a separate hose for each appliance served, or can one hose go to a manifold?

Separate hose for each appliance.* From the propane locker.* No connectors inside the boat except at the appliance.

*
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Old 10-19-2010, 03:29 PM   #29
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Get rid of old propane stove?

Quote:
RT Firefly wrote:*
* http://www.abycinc.org/committees/A-01.pdf

NOT regulations, suggested standards.***Their use is entirely voluntary


Continuing to live on this earth is pretty much voluntary also.*

A wise boater who cares for his (or her)*safety, the safety of his family and the safety of guests and marina neighbors will follow the standards even though they may not be legally binding.* These folks don't just make this stuff up and they don't publish it just to see their words in print.

Propane is every bit as explosive as gasoline, if not more so.
*


-- Edited by rwidman on Tuesday 19th of October 2010 03:30:08 PM
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Old 10-19-2010, 08:03 PM   #30
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RE: Get rid of old propane stove?

Hiya,
** I'm not*saying there's anything wrong with ABYC suggestions and rwidman,*I fully agree a wise boater should adhere to the suggestions as well.** They offer very good avice but using non tinned wire for example is foolish but not against the law. Whereas having too few life preservers on board is not only foolish but against the law as well..* The proper # of life preservers on board is a REGULATION.* ABYC*standards are not.*
** Many folks think ABYC is the law-it ain't.* Be safe.
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Old 10-19-2010, 09:03 PM   #31
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RE: Get rid of old propane stove?

In Canada, you don't get your Coast Guard inspection sticker without following our regs. What I am talking about is not your ABYC, but our CCGA regs.
We Canadians tend to follow, not lead, so I am surprised yours are not mandatory.
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Old 10-19-2010, 09:19 PM   #32
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RE: Get rid of old propane stove?

Woodsong, I have used on a previous boat a Wallas stove, fueled by diesel, and it worked extremely well.* Very quiet, and mine had a lid that when you closed it, turned the unit into a nice little heater.* It has a glass cooktop, 2 burners, heats up very, very quickly and is completely odorless.* Not cheap, but a high quality piece of equipment.* No go on propane for me....

http://www.scanmarineusa.com/wallas_stove_85DU.pdf
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Old 10-19-2010, 09:31 PM   #33
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RE: Get rid of old propane stove?

Delfin,
looks nice but I don't think I could justify that expense for our boat with everything else we are doing.

Honestly, I keep going back and forth. On one hand it seems insane to put such a dangerous element on the boat- i.e. propane that can literally blow up. That makes me want to say heck with it, go with electric and just use the generator- much, much safer and really not too bad and we're used to using the ceramic glass cooktop stoves since we've had them on our previous boats up til now.
On the other hand though- we do love cooking on gas and that is what we have at home and i like the idea of no need to use the generator at all. Flipside of that though is that I'll most likely be running the generator once or twice a day for a bit to charge the house batteries anyway so no big deal to use electric.

Ah....I can't decide whether the serious potential safety issues are worth the ability to keep things quiet and not need the generator to cook. You would think most folks would rather use a diesel stove to eliminate the real safety issues of propane.

Maybe I should flip a coin?!
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Old 10-20-2010, 12:53 AM   #34
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Get rid of old propane stove?

Quote:
Woodsong wrote:
Are most of you all running propane stoves on your trawlers?

*
Just about all GBs have propane ranges (stove & oven unit).* Our '73 had a Magic Chef four burner range when we bought the boat.* From its color and style it was probably original to the boat.*

The propane supply used by the previous owner was a BBQ bottle with bolted on feet on its side in the propane locker on the flying bridge.* We subsequently found out this is a very bad idea as BBQ bottles are not made to operate on their sides and the feed can be quite uneven.

Within the first week of having the boat we found the burner valve for the oven was leaking and the others were iffy.* So within two weeks of buying the boat we had the old Magic Chef removed and a new Force 10 installed. The Force 10 has been trouble-free for the last 12 years and my wife much prefers cooking on it to our electric range at home.

At the same time we installed the Force 10 we replaced the converted BBQ bottle in the propane locker with a purpose-built horizontal aluminum tank (not cheap), and a couple of years later added a second identical tank beside it.* While new horizontal tanks are made with an OPD, it is still legal to refill older horzontal tanks that have no OPD.* We have one old and one new tank along with a copy of the waiver in case a propane dealer questions our old tank.* No one ever has, however.

We would not want an electric range on any boat we might have because of the need to provide power to it (generator) and the fact that my wife much prefers cooking with gas/propane to electricity.* The narrowboats we have hired on the British canals since 1990 all have propane stoves, propane water heaters, and some have had propane refrigerators, which we much prefer over electric refrigerators.* We have never had a problem with any of these systems.

A propane system that is properly set up with good components installed correctly is no more dangerous than any other system on a boat.* Propane can blow your boat up, electricity can burn your boat down, and you can run your boat into a rock.* All it takes to prevent all three is common sense and an operational process than ensures safety.

We turn off the propane bottle that is connected to the feed line whenver we leave the boat for a period of time or when it's back in its slip.* We turn off the manual shutoff valve in the feed line up in the propane locker that is operated by a handle in the galley overhead whenver the range is not actually being used to cook or heat something.* Shutting off the propane system from the bottle to the range is on our "before leaving the boat" checklist we go through every time we leave the boat, either during a cruise or at the end of one.* So we have no qualms whatsoever about the propane system on our boat at all.

Speaking of Force 10 stoves/ranges, we made a simple addition to ours which makes it safer and protects the controls.* The photo pretty much says it all.* The position of the range on all but the very first GB36s is such that you brush past it every time you enter or leave the forward cabin.* Also if someone comes up to stand beside the helmsman to help watch for debris in the water or whatever, they invariably end up standing between the helm console and the stove.* The controls are about butt height so it was not uncommon for a person to inadvertantly turn on a burner valve or even pop a knob off the faceplate.

We solved this with the installation of a stainless steel drawer pull.* It acts as a guard above the burner knobs and since installing it years ago we've not had a burner accidentally turned on or a knob bumped off.* Since we always shut off the feed valve to the range when we're not atually using it a knob being bumped on was not an immediate safety issue but it was still something we didn't like to have happen.

A terrific featue of the Force 10 with regards to our boat is the "disappearing" oven door.* A traditional oven door would take up just about all the space beween the range and the helm consol opposite it.* The disappearing door means the space in front of the oven remains clear when someone goes to put something in or take something out of the oven.* Very smart design.


-- Edited by Marin on Wednesday 20th of October 2010 01:34:34 AM
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Old 10-20-2010, 06:53 AM   #35
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Get rid of old propane stove?

Marin, it looks like you have the same model stove that I have. Mine is positioned where the knobs aare not in danger of being accidentally turned on. Other than the igniter no longer working (yes, I know I can replace it), the stove works just great. It takes a little getting used to as propane burns hotter than the natural gas that we have at home.

There are several safety features built into the stove. One, you have to push each knob in, then turn it for the gas to come on. If you let go of the knob, the gas will shut off unless the burner is lit and has been burning for a few seconds. Second, if the flame goes out, the gas shuts off.

There is a switch in the galley with a pilot light that operates a remote solenoid valve in the propane locker to turn the gas on or off. There is also a propane detector in the galley. There is a pressure gauge in the propane locker and the test is to shut off the tank valve and see to it that the pressure holds. If it does, there are no leaks. If it drops, there is a leak that needs to be found and corrected. Much like the gas system in your home or business, if it doesn't leak when first installed, it's not likely to develop a leak.

BTW: My boat was built in Canada.



-- Edited by rwidman on Wednesday 20th of October 2010 06:54:33 AM
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Old 10-20-2010, 06:58 AM   #36
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Get rid of old propane stove?

Gas vs. Electricity for producing heat:

With gas, you burn the gas to make heat.

With electricity, you burn fuel to turn an engine that turns an alternator to make electricity, then you pass the electricity through a resistive conductor which gets hot and makes heat.

Which is more efficient?
Which is simpler and more trouble free?

Think about it.

-- Edited by rwidman on Wednesday 20th of October 2010 06:58:44 AM

-- Edited by rwidman on Wednesday 20th of October 2010 06:59:36 AM
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Old 10-20-2010, 07:02 AM   #37
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RE: Get rid of old propane stove?

I agree. We have a 4 burner propane Chef stove with oven and grill - now quite old, but still works perfectly. Likewise, we have a remote solenoid shut-off at the tank in the locker. I think the dangers of propane are over-played, and unwarranted. As Marin mentioned as well, there are numerous other aspects to boating as or more dangerous. it's a case of being sensible and taking simple precautions.
By the way. The only issue I/we have with our stove is firing up the grill. It does not have auto-lighter, so we have to use a flame wand, and it keeps forming pockets of unburnt gas which then ignite with a whoompf, and blow the wand and the grill out again. It often takes several attempts to get the grill to stay alight. Anyone know why, and a fix for it? It has done this from day one as far as I know.
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Old 10-20-2010, 08:15 AM   #38
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RE: Get rid of old propane stove?

hmmm....lots of food for thought here, no pun intended!
I am going to contemplate it. One thing I really liked the idea of was mounting the microwave below the cooktop to free up more space in the galley. Counterspace is a premium due to the full size fridge vs. undermount some versions of our model boat have. We're glad to have the full fridge due to us having our little kids on the boat with us but also want more space! I guess an alternative is to just get a surface mounted propane cooktop, eliminate the oven portion, and still mount the microwave under the cooktop. This requires me to give up the warm and happy idea of my wife baking brownies while anchored out though!


Ignore all the mess and clutter as the picture was taken prior to purchase and the seller had their stuff everywhere and even taken out a section of the headliner to get to the mast mounting plate bolts. *You can see where the microwave is currently sitting and how little counter space we have. *If we move the microwave down we can use the space above the fridge for other storage- basket for beach towels, maybe some kitchen stuff, etc. *The limited counterspace is also why I like the idea of a drop in cooktop of some type b/c the stove really chops up the counterspace, particularly with the wooden fiddles around the edge of the current countertops. *If I remove the fiddles and put down a continuous piece of granite and then set in a cooktop with micro below it would help a lot I think.
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Old 10-20-2010, 08:21 AM   #39
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RE: Get rid of old propane stove?

I would keep the existing arrangement. For more storage, the oven, when not in use as such, will hold lots of pots.
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Old 10-20-2010, 08:50 AM   #40
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Get rid of old propane stove?

Quote:
Woodsong wrote:

hmmm....lots of food for thought here, no pun intended!
I am going to contemplate it. One thing I really liked the idea of was mounting the microwave below the cooktop to free up more space in the galley.

I think you'll find that if you mount the microwave below the cooktop, you will have to get on your knees to see the controls.* Try it before making any permanent changes.
Here's my galley in case it gives you any ideas:



The PO made that fold up shelf on the right.* I never used it so I removed it.

*


-- Edited by rwidman on Wednesday 20th of October 2010 08:53:57 AM
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