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Old 04-08-2014, 10:00 AM   #21
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>In summary, if you want a sub 50' passage maker you need to build it up from a existing used boat and fit it to your specific needs.. and it will cost way less than a shorter new boat.<

I am not sure it would be cheap or even possible , to reinforce a stock hull, replace the PH and PH windows , install long range tankage for water and fuel , and to find space for the required stores and spare parts on a stock Brownwater boat.

A blue water boat will be DESIGNED from the bottom of the keel up for ocean service , and hopefully assembled by folks that understand the challenge of ocean crossing , and make safety and repairs underway a prime concern.

Almost everything from interior layout to gear selection/ installation will be different.

When I referred to a used existing boat I was thinking Nordhavn, Diesel Duck,Hatteras lrc, etc.

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Old 04-08-2014, 10:29 AM   #22
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When I referred to a used existing boat I was thinking Nordhavn, Diesel Duck,Hatteras lrc, etc.


Thought these (except the Hat ) were supposed to be ocean built , and should hardly be in need of a refit to pass the SEA buoy on the way out.
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Old 04-08-2014, 01:57 PM   #23
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Is the problem that you require "factory new"? Since a nordie fits the bill for you why not buy an older model and do to it what you will. It would seem to me you could buy this experienced n50 in the half-million dollar range and spend $250-300K doing quite a refit to your specifications (including white leather! ). To me it would be more fun than building new!

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Old 04-08-2014, 02:05 PM   #24
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Is the problem that you require "factory new"? Since a nordie fits the bill for you why not buy an older model and do to it what you will. It would seem to me you could buy this experienced n50 in the half-million dollar range and spend $250-300K doing quite a refit to your specifications (including white leather! ). To me it would be more fun than building new!

Dave

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Old 04-11-2014, 10:55 PM   #25
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Thanks for the posts

Thanks to everyone who responded to this post. Some great information and opinions have been shared which was my goal in asking the question. While the concept of a MS continues to receive mixed opinions I can only think of our Prius cars and how well the technology (electric and gas) has worked out. Possibly someday someone will design the perfect MS that appeases both sailors and trawler owners. In the mean time we continue our search for our next trawler.

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Old 04-11-2014, 11:35 PM   #26
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John

There is no shortage of good blue water boats to do your dream tasks, but do you really want to blue water cruise for a thousand or more non stop miles? That to me in following your travails of the past is the ultimate question. It appears not to be the case so why not get a really nice efficient coastal cruiser and be done with it.

BTW, the N50 Twins currently lying Mexico is just that vessel as it lacks serious range for hopping to the South Seas and still has the N feel and catchet to it. Or a reasonably new DeFever for 2/3 the cost?
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Old 04-11-2014, 11:39 PM   #27
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John,
Out of curiosity, why do you need a 'passagemaker' in the first place? Where are you planning to go? I see you already have a Nordhavn. What is the longest passage you have made with your current boat and what are the worst conditions you have had it in at sea?

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Old 04-12-2014, 05:39 AM   #28
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Motor sailors are reasonably popular down here and are usually based on commercial fishing boat hulls either Tassie cray boats(these are usually aft pilot house design) or prawn trawlers such as my own design.
The other is purpose design such as my friends 40ft Phyllis May.
This was designed by a yacht designer as can be seen by the semi balanced rudder and fin keel. The rig isn't shown but it is quite large. he sails a lot. The power plant is a 160 hp IVECO (Fiat)
Waverly similar to my own boat the one with the yellow sail covers is presently up in the Solomon Islands and has travelled many thousands of miles in the last 6 or so months a lot of the time with sail assist or under sail alone.
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Old 04-12-2014, 06:26 AM   #29
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>Possibly someday someone will design the perfect MS that appeases both sailors and trawler owners. In the mean time we continue our search for our next trawler.<

This can only come about by accepting a large sized boat.

The marine motorists seem to worship mere volume with most of it above deck level.

The sailors accept living IN the boat , perhaps with a big PH for the main salon.

Hard to compromise in 40 -50 ft and still have a boat that will sail at all well..
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Old 04-12-2014, 06:49 AM   #30
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Thanks to everyone who responded to this post. Some great information and opinions have been shared which was my goal in asking the question. While the concept of a MS continues to receive mixed opinions I can only think of our Prius cars and how well the technology (electric and gas) has worked out. Possibly someday someone will design the perfect MS that appeases both sailors and trawler owners. In the mean time we continue our search for our next trawler.

John T.
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John, as a matter of interest, why did you fall out of love with the N35 so quickly..? Do you really, really, really want to do real blue water cruising, or are you more in love with the dream of doing it..? I must humbly admit I probably fall into that latter category….

By the way, if you are really serious, there's a Diesel Duck being advertised on the forum right now. They are definitely ocean capable...Google the exploits of 'ICE'…
http://www.dieselducks.com/ICE.html
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Old 04-12-2014, 07:34 AM   #31
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Hans Christian 44PH is my ultimate motorsailor.

http://www.sailboatlistings.com/view/26908
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Old 04-12-2014, 07:49 AM   #32
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Hans Christian 44PH is my ultimate motorsailor.
[

Northern Spy, - I love that boat as well. I'm feeding mine steroids to see if it develops into a HC44.
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Old 04-12-2014, 12:37 PM   #33
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John, as a matter of interest, why did you fall out of love with the N35 so quickly..? Do you really, really, really want to do real blue water cruising, or are you more in love with the dream of doing it..? I must humbly admit I probably fall into that latter category….

By the way, if you are really serious, there's a Diesel Duck being advertised on the forum right now. They are definitely ocean capable...Google the exploits of 'ICE'…
ICE
I should clarify that we love our N35 and it has served its mission of getting us back on the water. Remember this purchase was always meant to be a test boat to see if Mary was ready for boating again. The boat is 100% amazing between its quality, robustness, performance and great looks which Mary has become accustomed to and thus the reason I went with another Nordhavn. Our biggest problem over the past years of boat ownership has always been the lack of time to set out for weeks or months at a time but we are getting closer to reaching early retirement and I would like to make our next boat the one that can take us to Hawaii, Alaska, Panama and the east coast. We have no desire to go around the world and it will only be the two of us aboard 90% of the time so I need a smaller boat that can accomplish this mission. Stabilization and range are two key factors we need to consider thus we keep coming back to smaller FD boats.

The N40 (with our custom layout we almost built) is really the perfect boat for us followed possibly by the N47 (a little big for me) but the prices of new boats are killing us. To pay close to $800K for an N40 doesn't make financial sense and a N52 (N47 is out of production) is well over $1M. I'm a little guy playing in this game who prefers a new boat (so does the real captain) for the warranty and historically fewer issues to deal with once we push off. To matters a little more confusing recent changes at work are causing some ripples in our plans to start taking more time off (near term) before formal retirement and may result in us just keeping the N35 for a few more years. I should know about this within the next month or two in the mean time we have the boat listed.

Life rarely goes as planned and one of the few guarantees we all have is that time will run out sooner then we think, gotta make that last voyage soon!

John T.
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Old 04-12-2014, 03:51 PM   #34
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I should clarify that we love our N35 and it has served its mission of getting us back on the water. Remember this purchase was always meant to be a test boat to see if Mary was ready for boating again. The boat is 100% amazing between its quality, robustness, performance and great looks which Mary has become accustomed to and thus the reason I went with another Nordhavn. Our biggest problem over the past years of boat ownership has always been the lack of time to set out for weeks or months at a time but we are getting closer to reaching early retirement and I would like to make our next boat the one that can take us to Hawaii, Alaska, Panama and the east coast. We have no desire to go around the world and it will only be the two of us aboard 90% of the time so I need a smaller boat that can accomplish this mission. Stabilization and range are two key factors we need to consider thus we keep coming back to smaller FD boats.

The N40 (with our custom layout we almost built) is really the perfect boat for us followed possibly by the N47 (a little big for me) but the prices of new boats are killing us. To pay close to $800K for an N40 doesn't make financial sense and a N52 (N47 is out of production) is well over $1M. I'm a little guy playing in this game who prefers a new boat (so does the real captain) for the warranty and historically fewer issues to deal with once we push off. To matters a little more confusing recent changes at work are causing some ripples in our plans to start taking more time off (near term) before formal retirement and may result in us just keeping the N35 for a few more years. I should know about this within the next month or two in the mean time we have the boat listed.

Life rarely goes as planned and one of the few guarantees we all have is that time will run out sooner then we think, gotta make that last voyage soon!

John T.
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John,
This may seem to be a smart question ... and it is in no way meant to be that way.. but how much do you budget to loose every time you do one of these boat changes?
I go through a few boats, but I do it at the lower end of the financial scale.. and I do a decent job of getting my boats for a good value.. but switching boats rarely is even a close to break even deal. I do ALL my own boat work and I on rare occasion break even on the equipment/parts/supplies that I "invest" in a boat... never the labor.

I as obviously do you love Nordhavn boats.. but unless one is doing real blue water passages they rarely are a necessity.

HOLLYWOOD
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Old 04-12-2014, 04:40 PM   #35
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John,
This may seem to be a smart question ... and it is in no way meant to be that way.. but how much do you budget to loose every time you do one of these boat changes?
I go through a few boats, but I do it at the lower end of the financial scale.. and I do a decent job of getting my boats for a good value.. but switching boats rarely is even a close to break even deal. I do ALL my own boat work and I on rare occasion break even on the equipment/parts/supplies that I "invest" in a boat... never the labor.

I as obviously do you love Nordhavn boats.. but unless one is doing real blue water passages they rarely are a necessity.

HOLLYWOOD
Sir, recognizing that you never make money with boats, we have been fortunate with all our boats (even prior to Nordhavn's)not to take the "bath" that many incur. An example is when I purchased our 22' Mako Center Console a long time ago. I found a west coast dealer who could not give the boats away, bought the new boat below cost, kept it about 4 years and sold it for more then we paid. Fast forward to Nordhavn's and we sold N1 for what we paid for her 18 months earlier, didn't incur taxes, and paid a very small commission so that boat was close to a freebie. When we sold N2 we did incur a little depreciation but overall not bad and we had to sell due to health reasons. N3 was a fortunate find for us and now in near new condition. Even with all our investment in her she is reasonably priced, will serve her next owner well and we will not sell her if means loosing money. I will be the first to admit we are not the normal trawler buyer/seller and that is what allows to play in this expensive market. I learned a long time ago how best to navigate the cycle of boat ownership and while no expert have done OK. The limited investment we do not recoup I write-off as the cost for all the priceless memories boating has provided us. We also have the added requirement of needing a second home in SD which for us is a boat over another land based home. Without this need we likely would not have entered the trawler market in our early 40's and stayed with much smaller boats. In the end it comes down to finding a way to do what makes us enjoy life.

John T.
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Old 04-25-2014, 01:15 AM   #36
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I like the MS 56 for its functionality but as Hollywood pointed out, it is one ugly son of a gun.
I got the original pic from the Nordhavn site, then used the computer to adjust it a little bit. With a redrawn line here, some junk left off there, I think it is an acceptable looking boat. With that variable pitch prop and slow revving Lugger, this thing can go just about anywhere. Trouble is, when you get there you want to park it out back.
So I tried to fix it.
What do you think?
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Old 04-25-2014, 02:27 AM   #37
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I like the MS 56 for its functionality but as Hollywood pointed out, it is one ugly son of a gun.
I got the original pic from the Nordhavn site, then used the computer to adjust it a little bit. With a redrawn line here, some junk left off there, I think it is an acceptable looking boat. With that variable pitch prop and slow revving Lugger, this thing can go just about anywhere. Trouble is, when you get there you want to park it out back.
So I tried to fix it.
What do you think?
Well, I don't agree the MS 56 is not acceptable looking, but setting that aside a moment. You've made some pretty significant changes. I don't think any dinghies are ugly but I wouldn't want to have a boat that size without one. I also consider the safety railings a nice safety feature and not unattractive. Also, I'd like the radar arch even though I don't think electronics are attract anyway but not leaving them off for appearance and do value the arch. Are we ready to trade function for looks?

If so, I'd suggest:
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Old 04-25-2014, 03:04 AM   #38
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Well, I don't agree the MS 56 is not acceptable looking, but setting that aside a moment. You've made some pretty significant changes. I don't think any dinghies are ugly but I wouldn't want to have a boat that size without one. I also consider the safety railings a nice safety feature and not unattractive. Also, I'd like the radar arch even though I don't think electronics are attract anyway but not leaving them off for appearance and do value the arch. Are we ready to trade function for looks?

If so, I'd suggest:
I didn't mean to offend any MS56 fans, as I personally love the boats.
The idea was to see if it could be made to look more traditional without costing any functionality. A dream exercise, for amusement purposes.

A porta-boat folding dinghy could lay flat on that roof, the big deck up there would be roomy enough to unfold it. I showed what I think might be the GPS gear on the deck there, the radar would be mounted on the main mast about 20 feet up in a way that wouldn't foul the jib when it's walked across, if at all possible.
I reviewed some drawings and pictures and you are right about the aft railings. Those bulwarks are only a bit over knee high, so safety first- I'd leave the rails alone.

The picture windows in the saloon seemed fragile for a passagemaker, so I redrew it with several smaller windows for strength.
I thought it looked more shippy.
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Old 04-25-2014, 11:43 AM   #39
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I didn't mean to offend any MS56 fans, as I personally love the boats.
The idea was to see if it could be made to look more traditional without costing any functionality. A dream exercise, for amusement purposes.

A porta-boat folding dinghy could lay flat on that roof, the big deck up there would be roomy enough to unfold it. I showed what I think might be the GPS gear on the deck there, the radar would be mounted on the main mast about 20 feet up in a way that wouldn't foul the jib when it's walked across, if at all possible.
I reviewed some drawings and pictures and you are right about the aft railings. Those bulwarks are only a bit over knee high, so safety first- I'd leave the rails alone.

The picture windows in the saloon seemed fragile for a passagemaker, so I redrew it with several smaller windows for strength.
I thought it looked more shippy.
Well, you're not taking my dinghy away....lol

Why would one give up a nice dinghy for a porta-boat. That's like trading a nice toilet for a porta-potti?

As to the windows, can't tell from a photo the strength or fragility.

You're right. It's a trade off on looks versus practicality. Personally, I don't think the boat looks bad. It just looks like a Nordhavn. Funny, when I see a Nordhavn, I really don't think of how it looks in comparison to other boats. Just know it's going to look like a Nordhavn.

But I'm not giving up the dinghy. lol
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Old 04-25-2014, 11:45 AM   #40
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I didn't mean to offend any MS56 fans, as I personally love the boats.
The idea was to see if it could be made to look more traditional without costing any functionality. A dream exercise, for amusement purposes.

A porta-boat folding dinghy could lay flat on that roof, the big deck up there would be roomy enough to unfold it. I showed what I think might be the GPS gear on the deck there, the radar would be mounted on the main mast about 20 feet up in a way that wouldn't foul the jib when it's walked across, if at all possible.
I reviewed some drawings and pictures and you are right about the aft railings. Those bulwarks are only a bit over knee high, so safety first- I'd leave the rails alone.

The picture windows in the saloon seemed fragile for a passagemaker, so I redrew it with several smaller windows for strength.
I thought it looked more shippy.
And you didn't comment on the boat photo I threw in. Might not be practical as a passagemaker with a 100 mile range, but can get you to the next fuel stop fast and look good doing it.
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