Gas vs Diesel

[BandB]

I get tired of hearing fuel isn't the biggest cost of boating. For a very high number of people it's a very big expense. If I had the boat I'd like and cruised a lot more it would sure be enough to whine big time on TF and elsewhere. But out of necessity I don't have that boat and have no need to whine.

But as trawler people taken as a whole this fuel burn issue is big for many. Couldn't be otherwise w all the verbage, posts and threads directed at fuel consumption. There's even a thread on fuel prices. I'd say fuel IS a big expense and those that say it's not could be bragging a bit about how much money the've got. Generally speaking of course.

I agree with what you say for the most part. When one says it isn't the biggest cost, they are trying to imply it isn't an important cost. Yet, it obviously is to a lot of people as much as it's talked about here. A huge percentage of those posting here run their boats at the speed they do to conserve fuel vs a couple of knots faster.

In our case, we have a detailed line item budget so maintenance isn't lumped but we have separate categories for engine vs gens vs stabilizers vs thrusters vs painting, etc. Now the largest line item of our budget is depreciation. Ignoring depreciation and salaries, fuel is our largest single expense. It ranges from 8% to 25% depending on the boat and usage.

Just because fuel usage might not be important to us or someone else doesn't mean it's not a significant expense for serious cruisers and I would guess it gets mentioned in more posts here than any other single subject. I think it's fair to say in most cases that fuel is a relatively small percentage of total costs, but it's still significant.

Whether it's a big enough expense to influence one's boating is for each individual boater as it depends on their financial situation. However, if we were looking for a way to cut costs, the easiest way for us would be to slow down and save fuel.

 

[FlyWright]

If I motor 200 hrs a year, that's a good year. Some are more, but most are less. Let's use 200 as a high average.

My boat's twin Perkins diesels burn 3.3 GPH total at $3 per gallon for a total of $10/hr of operation. That equates to $2000 per year for fuel.

My covered slip in my marina costs me $350/month including electric and water. That's $4200/yr for the covered slip. My routine maintenance, repairs and upgrades vary greatly but probably average about $1500-2500 per year. Let's call it $2000 as an average. My insurance and taxes total about $1000/year.

Using my numbers, fuel represents 21.7% of my total boating expenses. Diesel fuel is cheap compared to the other boating expenses.

I don't have a lot of money to throw around and I'm not bragging...just sharing honest, real world numbers. I think living this lifestyle for under $10,000 per year is a pretty damn good return on my investment!

 

[Art]

If I motor 200 hrs a year, that's a good year. Some are more, but most are less. Let's use 200 as a high average.

My boat's twin Perkins diesels burn 3.3 GPH total at $3 per gallon for a total of $10/hr of operation. That equates to $2000 per year for fuel.

My covered slip in my marina costs me $350/month including electric and water. That's $4200/yr for the covered slip. My routine maintenance, repairs and upgrades vary greatly but probably average about $1500-2500 per year. Let's call it $2000 as an average. My insurance and taxes total about $1000/year.

Using my numbers, fuel represents 21.7% of my total boating expenses. Diesel fuel is cheap compared to the other boating expenses.

I don't have a lot of money to throw around and I'm not bragging...just sharing honest, real world numbers. I think living this lifestyle for under $10,000 per year is a pretty damn good return on my investment!

Damn Good !

 

[Baker]

I certainly agree with the posts above that disagreed with my post about fuel cost. Yes, if you are rational and spread the cost of operating a sailboat over the miles it has traveled it is pretty expensive. After all, a new main can cost $5,000. But I'm talking psychology. The dollar you spend today, say on fuel for your gas-powered cruiser, is more painful than the thousands you could have spent last year for that diesel-powered trawler. And for those that say they don't care about the fuel cost because it is a small part of the total? Well, to me a dollar is a dollar. I can also hope that I can eventually get most of what I spend on the boat back, but fuel cost? Gone forever. Psychology from an amateur psychologist. FWIW. Time to go to the boat.

Ok...I guess I was talking psychological as well. I had a Corvette. A really pretty Corvette. I loved it. But my note was $900 a month. I could easily afford it. But guess what??? That $900 a month bothered me. It bothered me to the point that it was taking away from the enjoyment of the car. So I sold it. Not because I couldn't afford it. But because the cost bothered me. I spend SIGNIFICANTLY more on my boat. But it doesn't bother me because I enjoy it so much.....so....

To summarize and to plagiarize something I read recently:

When the cost of ownership becomes greater than the pleasure of ownership, it is time to reevaluate the dream and the boat on which to enjoy it(Bill Parlatore quoting someone else).

That is all I was trying to say. The cost of a boat doesn't bother me. The cost of fuel burned doesn't bother me. Because the pleasure outweighs it. If you are sweating those costs, you are not enjoying it and need to readjust the dream...up to and including trying a different hobby.

The cliche' I absolutely hate is the one about the 2 happiest days of a boat owner's life. If you believe that cliche', you are doing it wrong and/or you do not enjoy boating.

 

[Nomad Willy]

Al,
Re post 182
In contrast I burn 1gph hardly go anywhere and pay $300 mo moorage. Haulout and bottom paint about $60 mo. Insurance way less than yours prpbably other stuff too now that we've got most everything fixed on the boat.

So for me the expense is moorage and I whine about it at least as much as most worry and post about fuel costs.

 

[Art]

Ok...I guess I was talking psychological as well. I had a Corvette. A really pretty Corvette. I loved it. But my note was $900 a month. I could easily afford it. But guess what??? That $900 a month bothered me. It bothered me to the point that it was taking away from the enjoyment of the car. So I sold it. Not because I couldn't afford it. But because the cost bothered me. I spend SIGNIFICANTLY more on my boat. But it doesn't bother me because I enjoy it so much.....so....

To summarize and to plagiarize something I read recently:

When the cost of ownership becomes greater than the pleasure of ownership, it is time to reevaluate the dream and the boat on which to enjoy it(Bill Parlatore quoting someone else).

That is all I was trying to say. The cost of a boat doesn't bother me. The cost of fuel burned doesn't bother me. Because the pleasure outweighs it. If you are sweating those costs, you are not enjoying it and need to readjust the dream...up to and including trying a different hobby.

The cliche' I absolutely hate is the one about the 2 happiest days of a boat owner's life. If you believe that cliche', you are doing it wrong and/or you do not enjoy boating.

Agreed! Especially the part I bolded... I too detest that saying. Most persons who quote that have no idea about the pure joy of truly/actually being able to become "one" with your/our beloved boat soul! LOL

 

[BandB]

When the cost of ownership becomes greater than the pleasure of ownership, it is time to reevaluate the dream and the boat on which to enjoy it(Bill Parlatore quoting someone else).

That is all I was trying to say. The cost of a boat doesn't bother me. The cost of fuel burned doesn't bother me. Because the pleasure outweighs it. If you are sweating those costs, you are not enjoying it and need to readjust the dream...up to and including trying a different hobby.

The cliche' I absolutely hate is the one about the 2 happiest days of a boat owner's life. If you believe that cliche', you are doing it wrong and/or you do not enjoy boating.

We budget and project costs up front in great detail for boats and anything else in our lives. That way we know reasonably well what we're getting into and we don't get at all disturbed until something strays wildly over what we projected. Also, by doing it upfront, we do eliminate those things in advance that upon further thought just don't seem worth it.

As to the cliche, I detest it strongly. It's pure idiocy of someone getting into something they have no understanding of. It's not a reflection on boating but on the decision making of the person involved.

 

[SaltyDawg86]

Lol some of yall are funny. "Damn the cost, just get a boat!"

I know what goes into M&R, I'm pretty sure the budget on my current vessel is much higher than anyone here. Forgive me for trying to be financially responsible, I was just looking at the pros and cons of a gas vessel. As stated before when it came to the corvette, I can afford it, but do I really want to right now.

 

[TimButterfield]

The cliche' I absolutely hate is the one about the 2 happiest days of a boat owner's life. If you believe that cliche', you are doing it wrong and/or you do not enjoy boating.

I don't feel as strongly as some about this saying. It can be a reflection of changing realities. You explained the reason for it yourself with this bit:

If you are sweating those costs, you are not enjoying it and need to readjust the dream...up to and including trying a different hobby.

If this happens to an individual, it is at this point the second happiest day comes into focus, when they have readjusted the dream. Depending on the specific circumstances, it may also be a necessity for some reason or another. Comments by some have indicated they are getting a boat for doing X or for X number of years to fulfill some goal. Once that goal has been fulfilled, the reasons for having a boat may no longer apply. I do not have a time limited/finite goal with boating. Thus, I am not getting a boat with an exit plan in mind. But, being realistic, I can foresee the possibility of plans changing in future and selling it. Whether that second happiest day is to exit boating or to change to a different boat, I cannot yet predict. So, I will enjoy what I can and worry about that if/when it happens.

 

[psneeld]

I would hope the first or second happiest day of your life doesnt revolve around buying or selling a boat, or anything for that matter.

It might suggest a rather matetialistic side...

 

[TimButterfield]

I wouldn't put it at the ends either (of life as a whole), but understand the sentiment and changing priorities regarding boating in general.

 

[TimButterfield]

Thanks, psneeld. It may be a perception difference. I have never applied that saying to life as a whole as doing that seems too absurd. I have only applied it in the limited context of boating. Maybe that explains why some feel strongly about it and I do not.

 

[BandB]

I would hope the first or second happiest day of your life doesnt revolve around buying or selling a boat, or anything for that matter.

It might suggest a rather matetialistic side...

Way down the list.

 

[Art]

I know I have several, no, no... I mean many "Best Days" I've so far experienced. As well as feeling sure on having more to come.

Take too long to mention each "Best Day" already past as well as my best guess at Best Days yet to come!

IMO.... The meaning of; i.e., the true reason to apply the title of "Best Day" to any day can in no way be limited in number. Especially not limited to so trivial as the days of purchase and sales of a boat as being the only two [2] Best Days in life.

Of course, we all understand that the "saying" is completely tongue-in-cheek... isn't it?? :lol:

 

[Delta Dog]

We had a Catalina 30 with a small gas engine. We also had a "sniffer" that worked really well for us. It kept going off, we couldn't figure out why until I stuck my head into the engine compartment for a few moments and watched the sniffer. The gas line had a very small leak that dripped one drop about every 2 minutes right in front of the sniffer. I shut off the gas right away and replaced the line. I know a drop every 2 minutes or so isn't much, but after a week or two of evaporating in the bilge, while we were gone...well you get the picture. Anyway, I wouldn't have a inboard gas engine without a sniffer!

 

[FF]

"So for me the expense is moorage and I whine about it at least as much as most worry and post about fuel costs."

A dock with all the trimmings can be very expensive and not a great lifestyle.

In many places a boat can be kept out on a mooring , and with minor effort accessed with the dink.

Usually $50. to $100 a month .

The boat will ventilate properly , its quiet and mostly noise free.

The difference in lifestyle is as delightful as anchoring out , rather than sandwiching in a slip.

The marinas parking ,Dumpster , pump out , water slide, tennis courts, pool and petting zoo can still be used.

 

[gaston]

196 # posts gas v diesel



The pure satisfaction and pleasure along with the feeling of a dead slow RPM diesel with a 10" exhaust note and 300HP purring up the river at 1000rpm .


A gasa just isn't the same

 

[smitty477]

"So for me the expense is moorage and I whine about it at least as much as most worry and post about fuel costs."

A dock with all the trimmings can be very expensive and not a great lifestyle.

In many places a boat can be kept out on a mooring , and with minor effort accessed with the dink.

Usually $50. to $100 a month .

The boat will ventilate properly , its quiet and mostly noise free.

The difference in lifestyle is as delightful as anchoring out , rather than sandwiching in a slip.

The marinas parking ,Dumpster , pump out , water slide, tennis courts, pool and petting zoo can still be used.

Hello FF , agreed,
We have always been on a mooring as we own it - still takes about $500 per season for upkeep and setting and removing for winter (requires a crane). So approximate yearly costs run like $500 mooring / $2,500 yearly maintenance / $1,500 winter store / $3,500 fuel / $1,200 insurance / etc. Heading out to destination marinas costs are about the most that we categorize as 'vacations'.

 

[Art]

"So for me the expense is moorage and I whine about it at least as much as most worry and post about fuel costs."

A dock with all the trimmings can be very expensive and not a great lifestyle.

In many places a boat can be kept out on a mooring , and with minor effort accessed with the dink.

Usually $50. to $100 a month .

The boat will ventilate properly , its quiet and mostly noise free.

The difference in lifestyle is as delightful as anchoring out , rather than sandwiching in a slip.

The marinas parking ,Dumpster , pump out , water slide, tennis courts, pool and petting zoo can still be used.

Much agreed... in what you state.

However, to also educate newbies of some other dockage conditions, opportunities and up-front costs as well as long term realized savings and boat use/protection simplifications.

Good wide floating dock slip open to air on both ends [for continued airflow and views] having easy access to channel; with locked door-gate, electricity, water, pump out and having full gable roof weather protection may cost 3 to 4X more than a mooring... but, IMO in addition to the ease of loading equipment/food/sundries as well as it being super easy to work on boat sides, and the enormous weather element protection add up to making the covered-slip's realized dollar value well worth 5 to 10X more than exposed-mooring. Just the protection from sun and rain damage can save thousands per year, not to mention greatly reduced hours for exterior cleaning, shining and interior leak clean up. Then there's the covered roof protection against occasional severe storms that can wreak havoc on many boat parts as well as maybe sinking a boat by too much wind and rain or tearing it loose from the mooring with after the storm boats found littered alongside shore lines.

In boating there is a trade-off for everything!

Happy Boat Dockage/Moorage Daze! - Art

 

[Art]

196 # posts gas v diesel

The pure satisfaction and pleasure along with the feeling of a dead slow RPM diesel with a 10" exhaust note and 300HP purring up the river at 1000rpm.

A gasa just isn't the same

That's correct! Love ta listen to the low-end, deep-tune rumble of torque-power that an ol' slow turning diesel emanates.

However... Also love ta enjoy speaking in normal octaves over the darn quite, highly-muffled sound of twin screw, fine tuned, 255 hp. each gasoline engines as they cruise our 34' tri cabin Tolly on full plane at 17 knots.

And, while fairly economically [2.25 gph.] slipping through the water at just below hull speed [i.e. 7 +/- knots, <1.9K rpm] allows us to barely hear the twins while slightly feeling/noticing/hearing their symbiotic rpm melody when they're well brought into alliance on a synchronizing meter.

Cruising at any speed while resting high up on top in padded-comfort flying bridge seats, with wind gently wisping past your ears and the quiet gassers effortlessly pushing our Tollycraft boat along, is simply the best way to ever spend many of the hours of our lives!

 

[smitty477]

Much agreed... in what you state.

However, to also educate newbies of some other dockage conditions, opportunities and up-front costs as well as long term realized savings and boat use/protection simplifications.

Good wide floating dock slip open to air on both ends [for continued airflow and views] having easy access to channel; with locked door-gate, electricity, water, pump out and having full gable roof weather protection may cost 3 to 4X more than a mooring... but, IMO in addition to the ease of loading equipment/food/sundries as well as it being super easy to work on boat sides, and the enormous weather element protection add up to making the covered-slip's realized dollar value well worth 5 to 10X more than exposed-mooring. Just the protection from sun and rain damage can save thousands per year, not to mention greatly reduced hours for exterior cleaning, shining and interior leak clean up. Then there's the covered roof protection against occasional severe storms that can wreak havoc on many boat parts as well as maybe sinking a boat by too much wind and rain or tearing it loose from the mooring with after the storm boats found littered alongside shore lines.

In boating there is a trade-off for everything!

Happy Boat Dockage/Moorage Daze! - Art

FWIW - where we are anyway ....

- Hardly any covered slips, most of the ones that had been in existence had extensive damage in Hurricanes and were not rebuilt
- Summer slip for our boat 100 yards from our mooring is $8,580 without electric fees or others figured in, $8580 vs 5$00 = 17X the costs
- When there are real bad storms predicted the boats around here are hauled or moved to mooring away from marinas. This has proved to be valuable even with the last main storm here (Sandy)
- We have owned large RIBS to access the boat and to help clean all sides of the boat. We tow it on trips as it is a great option to have along but we also have a smaller one on board that would work just as well around the boat.

 

[Baker]

I have met many life long friends in marinas. Not sure that would happen on a mooring.

 

[Art]

I have met many life long friends in marinas. Not sure that would happen on a mooring.

Another good point!


But... as is stated in post #201... taint always very economical to be permanently berthed at a marina. I'm sooooo glad we dock where we do!

 

[dhays]

Permanent moorings for large boats are pretty rare here in the PNW. Usually they are used seasonally for fast boats in front of waterfront homes or cabins.

I pay $127/month for owners association fees and an average of $18/ mo for electricity at the slip that I own. Sure, there is the opportunity cost of the $115k that I spent on the slip 6 years ago, but its value is appreciating. For that $145/mo I get electricity (lots of it as I run dehumidifiers, a fan, charger, and an oil pan heater full time), good water, concrete docks, a nice owners clubhouse with laundry, showers, bathrooms, garbage, and a very nice kitchen/living room/deck area that can be reserved. We just had my daughters baby shower there this last weekend.

So for about $1,750 per year I get secure, convenient moorage. It isn't covered which is both good and bad so it doesn't same me the time/expense of cleaning and waxing. But having plenty of water right at my slip (full length fingers on both sides) makes washing the boat less of a chore.

If I was renting my slip, it would cost me $500 + that $18/mo for electricity, or about $6,200/year. I just wouldn't have access to the owners clubhouse but would still have access to a less nice bathroom, laundry, and shower.

 

[sunchaser]

196 # posts gas v diesel

Yes, and recreational marine gas engines probably outsell diesels by 200 to 1 - or greater.

 

[smitty477]

I have met many life long friends in marinas. Not sure that would happen on a mooring.

We had one larger boat at the marina one year but we were hardly ever there. Since then we have slipped our larger RIB at the marina for 2 years but it became easier to just load the RIB at the house and then run out to the boat from the ramp and bring the supplies on board that way.
About 15 years ago we also tried the local yacht club but found that for most of them they did not really cruise their boats at all and when they did it was very limited.
What we did do many years back is join a 'paper' boating club that collects a minimum dues (about $500) and then uses those funds to purchase and set moorings in 4-6 favorite harbors within about 50 miles of our home port. Anyone in the club can pick up the moorings and often on nice summer days we have a few raft ups going ion in various places. There are currently about 60 member families/boats in the club and the boats range from about 28' to about 68' in length. They originate from half a dozen marinas in the immediate area as well as folks on moorings a couple of them trailer their boats as well. They all are pretty serious users of their boats and tend to cruise more than average. They run a couple of organized cruises each year where many members join in for either part or all of the planned cruise - often 150-250 mile loop. There are organized events/parties along these cruises where you can choose to pay extra and be part of that event at that destination. Since we often have 20+ boats headed to the same destination we have become familiar with cruising along side various other boats more than most.
We have achieved many life long friends from this club and with so many kids the same age our daughter has also become lifelong friends with many as well. This has also led to our daughter getting summer jobs related to boating at various marinas and captains within the area during college years.