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Old 08-26-2015, 11:47 AM   #121
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Load control, load sharing, and shedding has become very sophisticated on modern yachts. And before anyone starts off on the "megayachts don't apply to our boats" soapbox again, we are talking about the engines used to drive the generators, the same engines that your own boat uses to turn the screw so save your fingertips and find another windmill to tilt at.
Rick

You will not find a VFD on anybody here on TF's boat.

Yes you are correct in that the same block can and is used to drive generators in your owners mega yachts, and us at TF members owned personal yachts, but they are not the same engines.

My boat has Cummins 6BTA5.9 engines pushing 330 HP each.

Just because Onan uses that same basic block to power a 100KW generator does not make it the same, and that difference is what we are actually discussing here. Recreational ratings and longevity.

Oh and if you leave out the inflammatory retoric (highlighted in your post above) that will go a long way in improving relations. Just because you work on other people's megayachts does not make the rest of us stupid, or inexperienced. Perhaps coming across more like a mentor (like our member Ski does) than an adversary will help get your message across.
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Old 08-26-2015, 01:54 PM   #122
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How about concentrating on the message and keep the hostility out of the thread?
I did not read his post as being hostile. As a moderator, he was just trying to provide a little bit of guidance in keeping things civil...or "moderate"...that is the job of a moderator. And also as a moderator he is given a little bit more lattitude in these areas to make the point.

This is not up for discussion. Carry on and try to get back on point with what the original intent of the post is about.
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Old 08-26-2015, 02:04 PM   #123
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Me, personally as it relates to Gas versus diesel:

Safety as it relates to explosion hazard and CO poisoning. Efficiency and longevity are just added bonuses. I do believe, as someone else said, is diesels generally don't leave you stranded as often. There are just less things to malfunction. I know this is less of an issue as EFI gas engines are now more prolific. But I just feel that diesels are more up to the task of pushing a 25,000 boat(mine) thru the water up on plane. I have a friend with a newer Carver that is about the same size and weight with gas engines and that thing struggles just to get up on plane. So from an emotional standpoint, I feel that I am not overworking a diesel whereas a gas powered boat getting close to that transition line(35-40 feet) is working its ass off to get the boat moving.....pinging(detonation) and all.

PS....my engines are 360CID rated at 330hp. I have it significantly underpropped(3100rpm on a 2800rpm engine) and am happy with the performance. SO I expect fairly decent life out of them since I have a very close relationship with them!!!...

PSS...my previous boat had a Yanmar 4LHA-STP rated at 240hp....and it was 211CID. That engine is considered one of the best out of the Yanmar "small" marine engines. I bought it with 180 hours and sold it with 1000 hours. Not a hiccup. Again, it was pretty seriously underpropped(3600 on a 3300rpm engine).
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Old 08-27-2015, 09:39 AM   #124
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FWIW,

My main reasons for choosing diesel (a $7,000 option 17 years ago) in my small but relatively heavy cruiser (26', 11,000lb loaded, moderately deep-V) were fuel range and long life.

With 110 gallons of fuel we can easily travel 350nm at our now normal (6 knot) cruising speed. With gas that might be 200nm. At 18 knots we can do 160nm, vs maybe 110nm with gas. In the wilds of northern BC and SE Alaska longer range is a big deal.

Our Volvo KAD44P is 219 cubic inches, 260hp, supercharged and turbocharged, WOT 3850. We broke it in hard, running at 18 knots most of the time the first 1,500-2,000 hours. 6,500 hours on it now, and no reason to think it couldn't do thousands more. Other than belts, filters, oil changes, and other routine maintenance (all religiously done), the only significant engine work has been a new exhaust elbow and turbo I put on at 4,072 hours.

The DuoProp sterndrive, OTOH, requires a good checkout and new seals and bellows every three years or so.

Works for me.
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Old 08-27-2015, 10:36 AM   #125
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I have had several gas and several diesel boats and iMO there is something elegant about diesel. No worry factors about fuel leaks, CO wires etc they just run. The sound or instant light off of a diesel is sure reassuring that all is well.

I have never met anyone who has diesels who said he wished he had gas instead. The reverse is often true.
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Old 08-27-2015, 10:48 AM   #126
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Hello Kevin,


I do not think you are going to get much informational value about recreational engines on this string. You have better places to seek out information that applies to 95% of us or more - and folks that want to be helpful.
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Old 08-27-2015, 02:40 PM   #127
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99.57% of TF members really like diesels so this thread on a need to know basis is at least a dark horse. But the outcome is assured and an objective thread is unlikely. But I was supprised at the objectivity that emerged.

That said worrying about how long they last seems almost pointless. At least the issue of underloading and over propping finaly reached some understanding that many can "take to the bank" and it took us 4 to 6 years to get there ... but succeding is good.

The real advantage is safety but a great many of the same skippers that rant on about how unsafe gas is have propane appliances on their boat.

Now I'm going to say if they invented gasoline that didn't explode I'd be wanting a gas engine.
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Old 08-27-2015, 02:42 PM   #128
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Hello Kevin,


I do not think you are going to get much informational value about recreational engines on this string. You have better places to seek out information that applies to 95% of us or more - and folks that want to be helpful.

I thought RCOOK's post was very informative. Especially the numbers regarding power, displacement, and longevity.
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Old 08-27-2015, 02:47 PM   #129
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That said worrying about how long they last seems almost pointless. .
I don't know why you say that? A third of the people here put over 300 hours per year on engines. At that rate, especially purchasing an older boat, it's a consideration.

What you were right about is that the vast majority of the boats represented here are diesel. In the vast majority of them, there was no choice.
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Old 08-27-2015, 03:36 PM   #130
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"I thought RCOOK's post was very informative. Especially the numbers regarding power, displacement, and longevity."


Yes - his post was informative.
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Old 08-27-2015, 04:44 PM   #131
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"I thought RCOOK's post was very informative. Especially the numbers regarding power, displacement, and longevity."


Yes - his post was informative.
RCook has a bit of a rather unique breed too. He has a diesel stern drive or inboard/outboard. Could be an excellent fit for his boat and a good choice. That's a combination however that you rarely see offered today.

I am very much with him on the importance of range. Over time we've eliminated a lot of boats we thought were very nice from our boats of interest because of range. If I was going to make any complaint on our RIBS it would be range and although both inboards, the diesel does have more range than the gas. If I was going to make any complaint on our RIBS, it would be range.

One thing I set as a minimum range requirement is you should at the least be able to use it all day without refueling.
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Old 08-27-2015, 05:13 PM   #132
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"If I was going to make any complaint on our RIBS it would be range and although both inboards, the diesel does have more range than the gas"


Wow - how big are these RIBS? I have found that our RIBS have larger range with outboards not due to the amount of fuel being used but due to the amount of fuel available and the weight of the overall boat and how it runs on the water. And the speed of the outboards is higher than jet drives - never had or went out on an outdrive RIB so cannot comment at all on those.
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Old 08-27-2015, 05:28 PM   #133
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"My main reasons for choosing diesel (a $7,000 option 17 years ago) in my small but relatively heavy cruiser (26', 11,000lb loaded, moderately deep-V) were fuel range and long life.

With 110 gallons of fuel we can easily travel 350nm at our now normal (6 knot) cruising speed. With gas that might be 200nm. At 18 knots we can do 160nm, vs maybe 110nm with gas. In the wilds of northern BC and SE Alaska longer range is a big deal.

Our Volvo KAD44P is 219 cubic inches, 260hp, supercharged and turbocharged, WOT 3850. We broke it in hard, running at 18 knots most of the time the first 1,500-2,000 hours. 6,500 hours on it now, and no reason to think it couldn't do thousands more. Other than belts, filters, oil changes, and other routine maintenance (all religiously done), the only significant engine work has been a new exhaust elbow and turbo I put on at 4,072 hours.

The DuoProp sterndrive, OTOH, requires a good checkout and new seals and bellows every three years or so."


Hello RCook,


Thank you for an interesting post and look at your diesel set up. It appears that you keep some really good records and that is to your advantage. Perhaps you would not mind adding some more details to this set-up so we get a better feel for your engines use and how it has lived. I am guessing you bought it new and then as you say ran it harder earlier on. Is it normally stored in the water? Do you boat in fresh or salt water? What general (not your immediate harbor) area do you boat in (northern BC?)? Can you refine how many initial hours you ran it harder was it like 1,500 or 2,000 or something else? Over how much time did you acquire the 1,500 -2,00 hours? About how many miles did you put on the boat in that timeframe? Do you have any idea on how many gallons of fuel you used over the initial 1,500 to 2,000 hours and/or over the current engines life? Do you have pyro and boost gages? What year engine is it (1998?)?


Any and all of these things may give some insight as to how you do as well as you are doing?
Thank you again
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Old 08-27-2015, 06:27 PM   #134
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"If I was going to make any complaint on our RIBS it would be range and although both inboards, the diesel does have more range than the gas"


Wow - how big are these RIBS? I have found that our RIBS have larger range with outboards not due to the amount of fuel being used but due to the amount of fuel available and the weight of the overall boat and how it runs on the water. And the speed of the outboards is higher than jet drives - never had or went out on an outdrive RIB so cannot comment at all on those.
The RIB I was comparing is just under 15'. We're hooked on jet drives. We know all the arguments in favor of outboards. Top speed for the diesel is 30 knots and for the gas is just over 40 knots. I don't really have a desire to get much faster than that in a 15' RIB. Now oddly the diesel has more room for and a larger fuel tank than the gas. We have fun playing around in our RIBS. We don't use them like most. We have days we cover as much as 150 miles. Be do have to play on days like that being able to refuel along the way.

Sounds good that yours has more fuel capacity.
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Old 08-28-2015, 10:30 AM   #135
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"We have days we cover as much as 150 miles. Be dohave to play on days like that being able to refuel along the way."

Hello BandB - Ithought we were the only fools that went on such long excursions with our RIBS.We have never gone 150 miles but have often gone on legs of 20-30 miles outover the years. maybe a few times we have gone near 100 miles on the RIB up theHudson on the CT river or around Shelter Island but never 150 miles. We havebeen in an unusual situation of having owned many RIBS over the years none ofthem were new. Two of them were jet RIBS one being a gas Sea Doo and the othera diesel. I just could never get comfortable with the diesel engines revshiking up and down when jumping a wake as it made me concerned about theengine. Always it seemed we did well with the outboard versions with a few ofthem having ranges exceeding 400 miles not that we tested them. One of them wehad quite a long times and actually rigged up a fuel pump to it so we couldfuel up jet skis from that RIB. Speed is relative on the RIBS as they handle heavywater pretty well but we have been at quite some speeds on a couple of theseoutboard powered RIBS.
Really glad to see you have such great fun with them.
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Old 08-28-2015, 12:20 PM   #136
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Thank you for an interesting post and look at your diesel set up. It appears that you keep some really good records and that is to your advantage. Perhaps you would not mind adding some more details to this set-up so we get a better feel for your engines use and how it has lived. I am guessing you bought it new and then as you say ran it harder earlier on. Is it normally stored in the water? Do you boat in fresh or salt water? What general (not your immediate harbor) area do you boat in (northern BC?)? Can you refine how many initial hours you ran it harder was it like 1,500 or 2,000 or something else? Over how much time did you acquire the 1,500 -2,00 hours? About how many miles did you put on the boat in that timeframe? Do you have any idea on how many gallons of fuel you used over the initial 1,500 to 2,000 hours and/or over the current engines life? Do you have pyro and boost gages? What year engine is it (1998?)?


Any and all of these things may give some insight as to how you do as well as you are doing?
Thank you again
Hi Smitty,

The boat is kept in a garage here in Utah during the winter, and typically towed to Prince Rupert or Everett or Bellingham to launch and head north for the summer. 2-3.5 months continuously on the water and 2,000-4,000 nm traveled in a summer. Aside from a number of 1-2 week Lake Powell trips, all her 39,000 nm of cruising have been on the Inside Passage, more than half in SE Alaska.

Had the boat built in 1997-8. Engine is a 1997 VP KAD44P-DP-EDC, a 260hp 24-valve inline 6, turbocharged, aftercooled, and also supercharged. One of the first electronically controlled boat diesels. There's a boost gauge, but no pyro (hard to install in a stern-drive setup).

In cruises 1999 through 2004, for about 1,700 engine hours, we ran mostly at 17-18 knots, 3,300-3,400 RPM, averaging about 1.75-2.0 nmpg over close to 12,000 nm.

Early on, we found with a photo-tach that our tach was not calibrated accurately, and corrected that. We switched propsets to be able to run a full 3850-3900 RPM at WOT with a full load. This is considered critically important for a high-RPM and high-hp/displacement diesel.

Per VP service tech recommendations, we avoided extended idling early on (we were told the 44 tends to get too cool in extended idling). We made sure to heat her up well before beginning such a period of idling, and did a 5-minute blast of planing speed after any lengthy period of idling, such as drifting to jig for halibut.

We found that cruising at 6-6.5 knots and 1300-1400 RPM made the engine work hard enough to keep the coolant temp up to 175-180 degrees, which we understood was important for safely cruising at low power levels. Since 2003 we have cruised mostly slow, getting 4-4.5 nmpg, covering another 27,000 nm. With the engine very well broken-in, we're not concerned about low-power travel, and now we often go for many days without running up to planing speeds. Doesn't seem to be a problem. We do still crank her up to 18 knots when it's useful to get past some unpleasant chop, make it through a weather window, etc. I'm inclined to believe that the electronic controls help the engine cope well with running at both low and high power levels.

I keep up the maintenance schedule religiously - including changing engine oil every 100 hours. Don't change sterndrive lube at the recommended 200 hours, as I'd have to haul it out whilst cruising, but I figure running mostly at low power puts a lot less wear and tear on the drive.

Don't know how much this has helped, but I've also added Stanadyne Performance Formula to the diesel since the first year - also recommended by VP service techs. I think I can tell that it helps (reduced smoke, smoother and quieter running, maybe even a bit better mileage) in my 24-valve electronic Cummins truck engine.
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Old 08-28-2015, 12:31 PM   #137
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Hello BandB - Ithought we were the only fools that went on such long excursions with our RIBS.We have never gone 150 miles but have often gone on legs of 20-30 miles outover the years. maybe a few times we have gone near 100 miles on the RIB up theHudson on the CT river or around Shelter Island but never 150 miles. We havebeen in an unusual situation of having owned many RIBS over the years none ofthem were new. Two of them were jet RIBS one being a gas Sea Doo and the othera diesel. I just could never get comfortable with the diesel engines revshiking up and down when jumping a wake as it made me concerned about theengine. Always it seemed we did well with the outboard versions with a few ofthem having ranges exceeding 400 miles not that we tested them. One of them wehad quite a long times and actually rigged up a fuel pump to it so we couldfuel up jet skis from that RIB. Speed is relative on the RIBS as they handle heavywater pretty well but we have been at quite some speeds on a couple of theseoutboard powered RIBS.
There are just areas that the RIBS are so perfect for enjoying up close and personal. Places you can get to that you couldn't easily otherwise. For those using their dinghies simply to get back and forth to shore, I'd suggest next time you anchor somewhere at the entrance to a long creek or narrow river, get in your dinghy and see what is on the other side of that bridge you can't get under in your boat. It may well be very quiet, peaceful, and beautiful. We just find ourselves going as far as reasonable in a boat, but always wanting to see where the water leads beyond.
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Old 08-28-2015, 01:43 PM   #138
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Greetings,
Good grief! 140 posts. I think the question was answered VERY early on. Horses for courses. Under loading, overloading, props, fuel usages, explosion "dangers", range, speed....It's a wonder no-one has thrown anchors into the mix or commented on the shape of the buttocks.
As I previously reported, I recently purchased a "day" boat for local use. Am I worried about range, mileage or going BOOM? Not at all. If the same vessel was offered in diesel I would have still opted for gasoline. For the use I intend putting the vessel to, that 1978 Chebby 350 is just fine. Old school. Carb and points. Can be repaired on the water with a paper clip, file and some duct tape and is NOT at the mercy of a $0.13 resistor that decides to abandon ship at some inopportune moment.
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Old 08-28-2015, 01:46 PM   #139
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I originally said worrying about how long engines last is not worth the time as we won't live long enough to wear them out. Not in those words.

Quote:
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I don't know why you say that? A third of the people here put over 300 hours per year on engines. At that rate, especially purchasing an older boat, it's a consideration.

What you were right about is that the vast majority of the boats represented here are diesel. In the vast majority of them, there was no choice.
OK I could be wrong about that but I read very few posts about members here repowering. And of course most of our boats are powered by their original engines that may have considerable time on them. Considering the very high cost of repowering and the life of one's engine being an unknown I can see the concern. I stand corrected.
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Old 08-28-2015, 03:55 PM   #140
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Somewhere in this thread did anyone mention that adherence to proper maintenance is an issue that spells relief or failure in either case? More than an oil change too is involved. If in doubt talk to guys like RickB, Ski or Celectric
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