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Old 08-24-2015, 08:05 PM   #61
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"The 6.6 is rated at 275hp max. If one were to follow the 1 hp per 2 cubic inches then the max hp would only be 200 hp and that was the point of the statement"


Running the 6.6 at a rate of 275 hp will greatly limit its life. Having 275 hp and propping to reach safe WOT then running it near 200 hp will yield a much longer life.


"Someone forgot to tell my 8v82ti's what smitty's opinion was."
What GPH or load do you normally run your 8V82'2 at?


"A realy experienced mechanic who knows the engines in question is the most valuable, and osme of them can be found on boatdiesel.com"


Absolutely agreed- that is where the information and guidelines mostly come from.


Hope this helps
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Old 08-24-2015, 08:11 PM   #62
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"The 6.6 is rated at 275hp max. If one were to follow the 1 hp per 2 cubic inches then the max hp would only be 200 hp and that was the point of the statement."


And running that 6.6 regularly at 275 hp will greatly limit its life, If you prop that 6.6 to correctly reach WOT and then run it constantly at or below 200 hp the life will be greatly extended.


"Going to side with Rick on this one. Someone forgot to tell my 8v82ti's what smitty's opinion was."
At what GPH do you normally run your 8V82's at?


"A realy experienced mechanic who knows the engines in question is the most valuable, and osme of them can be found on boatdiesel.com"
Absolutely agree with this - that is where much of this information and guidelines come from.


Hope this helps
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Old 08-24-2015, 08:23 PM   #63
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"an MTU 16V4000 as used on many large yachts produces more than 4600 hp out of 4211 cubic inches"


I am not familiar with these MTU's wither but it appears that there was another typo when recording these numbers as well.


Hope this helps
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Old 08-24-2015, 08:23 PM   #64
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Great point. We only see those still running. While the craftsmanship in the old houses is great, to be livable they've had to have major renovations. The definition of old houses changes too. Our house is 20 years old and doesn't have the original roof, heat or air.
The older wooden structures here often used redwood from slow-growth, virgin forests, and the dimensional lumber wasn't shaved thin like in modern practice.
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Old 08-24-2015, 08:30 PM   #65
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The older wooden structures here often used redwood from slow-growth, virgin forests, and the dimensional lumber wasn't shaved thin like in modern practice.
Wifey B: Virgin forests? I don't think there are any of those left. Of course I'm sitting here thinking of how a forest loses it's virginity. Oh, I know....can't say that here.

Ok, back to the OT Topic. How old do you consider an old house there?
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Old 08-24-2015, 08:51 PM   #66
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What part cracks? The housing? Flanges? Compressor or turbine? Which turbo(s)?
Looks like turbine housing cracked, then coolant went out exhaust. Low coolant level sensor did not work. Operator caught the rise in temp, shut it down. Temp alarm never sounded. The other turbo cooked too and possibly the crossover pipe and manifolds. Mechanics are still tearing into it. 40k is if it is just turbos and crossover. If engine took damage, then the sky is the limit.
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Old 08-24-2015, 08:54 PM   #67
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Perhaps a bit of marine history is in order. The first marine diesels were introduced early in the 20th century. The early diesels were very large and heavy. In addition they produced quite low horsepowers and had slow maximum rpms (<1,000). Because of their high torque, these engine were well suited to heavy work boats that could accommodate a large prop. Because of their weight and size they didn't make much of of an inroad into the recreational market except in a few large yachts or in converted work boats and tugs. The vast majority of recreational boats prior to the 1950s were gasoline powered including almost all of the large commuter yachts. Any "fast" boat was a a gasser. Take world war II PT boats as an example. They were all gassers. After WWII the development of lighter, higher revving diesels let them break into the recreational market. Diesels became common in the late 60 and pretty much took over the larger boat and high end markets by the 70s and early 80s. Gas engines continued to be installed primarily in smaller boats and in boats built to a price point. Diesels were and still are considerably more expensive than equivalent power gas engines. During the 60 ans 70s the makers of small gas engines gradually disappeared and diesels completely took over the inboard market for sailboats. The remaining gas engines were mostly marinized automotive engines. Gas engines persist in the marine inboard market large for two reasons, price and familiarity of the customer based for smaller, cheaper boats with gasoline automotive engines.

Modern marine diesels are used in all sorts of boats from full displacement passage makers to small planing boats (one of the local builders in my area sells a 29' diesel powered runabout capable of 40 knots).

Modern marine diesels are still a bit heavier than equivalent gas engines. However because of the greater energy density of diesel fuel compared to gasoline, diesel engines consume about 2/3 the fuel of a gas engine to produce the same amount of horsepower. The greater weight of fuel required for a gas boat more than offsets the engine weight if the range under power is to be equivalent.

The big advantage of diesel relative to gas is that diesel is much less volatile than gas. Gas vapor creates a real explosion hazard on gas boats which simply doesn't exist on a diesel boat. That is because gas vapors are heavier than air and consequently accumulate in the hull. Consequently, all gas boats must have efficient exhaust fan systems to remove any accumulated gas vapors. That said, the vapor problem is less now than it was historically with the advent of fuel injected gas engines in the marine market. You still need the exhaust blowers though in case there is a leak in the system.

I expect gas engines to persist in lower end boats despite the availability of diesel engine that would to the job well simply because of the price difference. As diesel engines make inroads into the US automotive market, the inherent preference for gas on the part of boating neophytes will gradually diminish.

As far as maintenance goes, diesels are generally easier than gas engines simple because there is no ignition electrical system (no distributor, no spark plugs or wires, no coil, etc.). Older diesels with mechanical fuel and injection pumps will run happily with no connection to batteries once started. That advantage is disappearing though with the introduction of common rail diesels with electronically controlled fuel injectors. Those new diesels have quite complex electronic control systems just like new gas engines, but they still lake the electrical ignition system. Because diesels run at much higher compression ratios than gas engines, higher grade lubricating oils are required and oil change intervals are a bit shorter with diesels than with gas, but even that is changing. For example a new Volvo-Penta D2-40 diesel has a 500 hour oil change interval. That is pretty typical of modern diesels. Normal maintenance on a modern marine diesel consists of periodic oil and filter changes, fuel filter changes, changing heat exchanger zincs (not on all engines though - some have monel heat exchangers with no zincs), changing intake air filters and changing the raw water pump inpeller. Longer term maintenance includes adjusting the valves every 500-1,000 hours and servicing injectors about every 1,000 hours. Other than that you also replace belts and hoses as needed. These diesels are generally easier to service than gas engines because you don't have to worry about an ignition system.

Essentially, diesels are gradually taking over the recreational market except for the low end. I can't think of a single high end builder than installs gas engines.

Given a choice between gas and diesel power, I would always opt for diesel if only for the added safety. That is not even considering the longer life of diesels compared to gas.
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Old 08-24-2015, 09:12 PM   #68
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....
The big advantage of diesel relative to gas is that diesel is much less volatile than gas. Gas vapor creates a real explosion hazard on gas boats which simply doesn't exist on a diesel boat. That is because gas vapors are heavier than air and consequently accumulate in the hull. Consequently, all gas boats must have efficient exhaust fan systems to remove any accumulated gas vapors. That said, the vapor problem is less now than it was historically with the advent of fuel injected gas engines in the marine market. You still need the exhaust blowers though in case there is a leak...

Given a choice between gas and diesel power, I would always opt for diesel if only for the added safety. That is not even considering the longer life of diesels compared to gas.
I agree. Having seen the results of, and the investigations, into a gas engine boat explosion.
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Old 08-24-2015, 09:13 PM   #69
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I am not a broker so I could be off base from just looking across the ICW every day....but...


Maybe they are only low end builders in some people's eyes...but the vast majority of boats less than 40 feet are gassers...if anything...many boats around me up to 35 feet are going outboard.


Boston Whalers, Grady Whites Everglades, etc...
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Old 08-24-2015, 09:28 PM   #70
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Other than a couple of outboard boats I can only think of three inboard gas boats in our marina. The outboard boats are mostly tenders to the 100+ footers (i.e. 30-35' center consoles with a couple of 350 hp outboards). Two are older woodies and the third is an early 80s Chris Craft. None of the other boats are gas. Of course the most common boats in the marina are Hinckleys, Flemings, Marlows, Nordhavns, and Ellis boats. There is also one electric boat. Then there are the big boys - 100% diesel. We don't get many Sea Rays, Carvers, or similar boats.
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Old 08-24-2015, 09:36 PM   #71
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Boston Whalers, Grady Whites Everglades, etc...
One of the outboard boats in the marina is a 25' or so Grady White. There aren't many of them around here.
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Old 08-24-2015, 09:37 PM   #72
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Other than a couple of outboard boats I can only think of three inboard gas boats in our marina. Two are older woodies and the third is an early 80s Chris Craft. None of the other boats are gas. Of course the most common boats in the marina are Hinckleys, Flemings, Marlows and Nordhavns. Then there are the big boys - 100% diesel.
Well maybe it is regional.

Within a 20 mile radius of my marina and easily 5000+ boats, I know of 2 Hinkleys, zero Flemmings, zero Marlows and zero Nordhavns.

Out of the 5 recreational 35+ foot boats on my dock, 4 are gassers and I am the only diesel.

Of the other 50 some recreational boats in the marina...they are all gassers except a couple sailboats with diesels in them.

All the boats in the yard for sale, both new and used, except for one are gassers.

All the boats at the 3 big boat dealerships nearby are all gassers up to 35 feet.

I really think if you checked statistically...diesels barely make a smudge on the page of recreational boat sales.


Some other telltales like many marinas selling gas and not diesel at the pumps should also be a clue as to which is more poular.

Now in the 35+ range...sure they start to dominate.
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Old 08-24-2015, 09:44 PM   #73
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Yes some regional differences for sure. The harbor has maybe 50-60 Hinckleys, a few Selenes, quite a few Sabres, an Outer Reef and a lot of custom boats. There are even a couple of Grand Banks East Bays and I saw a GB36 the other day, but it was a transient. There are more low end older sailboats than low end power. Most of the less expensive power boats are lobster boats, but they are almost 100% diesel.

I don't think any of our local builders build gas boats, but they are universally higher end although they build boats as small as 29'. Of course the cheapest new boat you can buy here is about $400K.
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Old 08-24-2015, 09:46 PM   #74
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I would be surprised if there weren't even 50-60 Hinckleys in all of NJs 180,000+ registered boats.


2010 NMMA report...


66 percent of mechanically propelled boats are outboard boats; 20 percent are inboard/PWC; and 13 percent are sterndrive boats.


http://www.nmma.org/news.aspx?id=18028


my guess would be easily 70-75 percent would be gassers then...probably more like 85-90%


and I don't think the mix has changed that much.
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Old 08-24-2015, 09:51 PM   #75
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"if anything...many boats around me up to 35 feet are going outboard."


Yes - many around here are also going the route of multiple gas 4 stroke outboards coupled with diesel gensets.
Interesting combination...
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Old 08-24-2015, 09:52 PM   #76
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Our harbor has something just shy of 2,000 boats in it, power and sail. I would venture a guess that about 80 percent of them, if not 90 percent, are diesel. This region has thousands if not tens of thousands of sportfishing boats, almost all of them outboard powered. But there are only a handful of outboard sportfishing boats in our harbor because the owners of this type of boat almost always trailer them rather than pay moorage in a harbor. This hold true right up through the 23-25 footers.

There are a few gas Tollycrafts about and a handful of vintage Chris Craft type boats that still have their original engines. But outside of that, eveything else, power and sail, is diesel.
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Old 08-24-2015, 09:57 PM   #77
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The point is...diesels aren't taking over the boat market....just yet.


Like most other insane discussions here...specify or narrow down a statement or topic and THEN people start to agree.....
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Old 08-24-2015, 10:00 PM   #78
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Well our local boat population is heavily skewed to inboard boats. The outboard boats here are mostly small skiffs with just a few center console type boats. Almost all of them (excluding superyacht tenders) are under 25' and most are under 20'. The numbers from the NMMA certainly are biased by small boats. This discussion was about "larger" boats of the trawler/cruiser type. Not many of those are gas. If you look at 35-50 foot displacement and semi-displacement cruisers you won't find many gas boats. From my perspective, boats like Sea Ray and Bayliner are lower end boats.
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Old 08-24-2015, 10:16 PM   #79
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The point is...diesels aren't taking over the boat market....just yet.
.
They probably never will if by "market" you mean the whole spectrum of recreational boating.

The vast majority of boaters aren't in a financial position to buy and keep up a cruising boat of the type most people on this forum have and most of them probably never will be. But they can afford an outboard fishing boat or ski boat or runabout or a smaller mass-produced weekender.

They used to say that the Seattle area or the Puget Sound region depending on who was saying it has the highest per capita popularion of boats in the entire nation. I don't know if that's still true or ever was, but from what I see driving around I can easily believe it. In just our small cull-de-sac neighborhood near the Cascade foothills there are five trailer boats, all of them in good shape and all of them used regularly.

I don't have figures but I suspect the trailer boat population here far, far outnumbers the kept-in-the-water boat population, which in itself is huge. I believe the marina in Everett bills itself as the largest marina on the west coast, for example.

So looking at this vast boat population in the water and on land, I suspect that the majority of the boats are gas and that the gas segment of the overall market is growing at a far faster rate than the diesel boat segment.
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Old 08-24-2015, 10:23 PM   #80
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I would be surprised if there weren't even 50-60 Hinckleys in all of NJs 180,000+ registered boats.


2010 NMMA report...


66 percent of mechanically propelled boats are outboard boats; 20 percent are inboard/PWC; and 13 percent are sterndrive boats.


NMMA Releases 2010 U.S. Recreational Boat Registration Statistics Report


my guess would be easily 70-75 percent would be gassers then...probably more like 85-90%


and I don't think the mix has changed that much.
This is the old thing of how do you measure the industry. Is it number of boats or dollar value of boats sold. But I think your numbers above would indicate the total predominance of gas powered boats when talking number of boats. If you count the PWC it's even worse and the industry does count them as boats. Toss in dinghies and tenders.

Now to respond more to the OP and boats such as those he's considering. In sportyachts as the builder's refer to them, Sea Ray dominates the market. Carver's share has decrease. But interestingly, Sea Ray sells everything under 40' with gas inboard/outboards, over 40' with diesel and straight drives. Carver sells their boats under 40' with a choice but the majority are delivered with gas. Over 40' they offer diesel only.

Now, the Tugs, the Mainships, the GB, the Marlows and most other boats you'd use for long range cruising are all diesel and straight drives (or pods).

Center consoles with outboards aren't really relevant to the question asked.

The lighter boats under 40' are fine with gas, but mostly matched to stern drives. That provides multiple benefits and as to the gas danger, it's certainly there, but the majority of boaters has found ways to minimize it. If an under 40' Mainship, Sea Ray or Carver was the perfect boat for me and came with gas engines, then I'd consider it. Going to anything heavier, diesel is the only way to go, it's really your only choice.
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