Fun New West Marine Policy

[rwidman]

............... Frankly, I find Amazon is fast becoming a better marine store than WM.

But you can't walk in to a local amazon store and pick up what you need. Or measure it and compare it to other products.

If price is the objective, amazon is no longer the lowest price for many products. Do a web search and you will likely beat the amazon price, even considering shipping costs.

 

[BandB]

What is a bit ironic in this case is that West did make the refund. They just talked too much and did it in such a way as to turn a positive to a negative.

Stores need to publish clear and easy to follow return rules but also make common sense exceptions.

As to the pushback to manufacturers, at the very least, the store should facilitate for the customer. The customer bought from the retailer, that's who has in my opinion a burden of service.

What does the retailer do when the manufacturer then refuses to help them? Only one power they have, that of discontinuing the product. Unfortunately, the small retailer lacks that. But West Marine just fails to exercise it. It requires effort. I read in intercompany notes recently where our hardware stores had a problem with one manufacturer. While we certainly don't have the power of West Marine, our director had what used to be called a "come to Jesus meeting" by webcam with the manufacturer. We'd done $230k of wholesale business with them in the past year and this was over approximately $3,000 of claims. We had made repairs and replaced parts and they claimed we couldn't do so without prior approval. We explained how ridiculous that was when we knew the problem and the customer was standing in our store. We made it clear we were not changing our practice, that the only thing we'd possibly change was our product mix but that we intended to protect our reputation, even if they didn't care about theirs. We also showed them over 20 reviews complaining about their products as other stores wouldn't honor the warranties.

Here's our published policy on the above. "Fuel-Powered Outdoor Equipment cannot be returned once fuel or oil has been put in it, even if the equipment has been drained of these materials. If you put fuel or oil in the equipment you will need to contact the manufacturer regarding any product issues." We, however, quickly repaired or exchanged and saved the manufacturer a return. When we exchanged, we put the returned one into our rental inventory. Yes, we've seen water in fuel and even diesel instead of gas (he siphoned from his truck and forget he now had a diesel truck).

It's a tough position a retailer sometimes finds themselves in, but they have to deal with it. If you can't fix it, you can advocate for your customer. If it falls on deaf ears, you can stop carrying the product.

Now, there is a greater return problem and it was created long ago by mass merchandisers where they basically accept returns on anything for any reason. That's long been out of control. You have people who buy clothes on Friday and return them on Monday, having worn them over the weekend and do this many times a year. Online sellers have made it worse. Amazon is the worst of no questions asked. Online retailers are experiencing 20-30% return rates and apparel even higher. It's a disastrous situation.

Our Aussie friend asks about statutory warranty. In the US, the Uniform Commercial Code includes an "implied warranty of merchantability". However, there are many ways that can be altered or excluded. West Marine alters it by including 8 exceptions including anything that has been installed and directing you to the manufacturer. A common sense approach would have been to have accepted the return and for West to have then dealt with the manufacturer, which is what, in fact, they did, just made an issue of it.

 

[STB]

I have never, ever had a problem with West Marine not accepting a return. Ever.

I bought a pair of West Marine binoculars and they broke after a couple years. I took them to the store and they had been discontinued. The guy at the store got on the computer, found a replacement pair at another store and had them shipped to me.

I had a West Marine dinghy air pump fail when I was on a cruise. I took it to a nearby store, they looked up my purchase and handed me a replacement.

How long ago? I remember those days, too.

But, in my expereince, times have changed. Two recent changes of ownership, pressure from vendors, pressures from the online world, and customer behavior have seemingly had an impact...

 

[Tom.B]

You are going to pay up for the ability to walk in and buy what you want... when you want it. Yea, WM is not ideal, however, in my area it is the ONLY option. If we lose it, it will become a real problem for me and my insatiable appetite for projects. In this case, and the real problem I see, is that after the investment group took over, they only see it as another retail store and are executing it as such. They don't understand the boating community as they should. But yes, some of the blame does lay at the feet of a few boaters that abused to system. That, though, is not unique to boaters. So charging full retail for items SHOULD give them the capital to provide the correct policies to continue to function at a profit. Why they do not is beyond me.

I will continue to support them... I have no choice. We can hope that if the current owner group runs it into the ground that there are enough pieces to pick up and put it back together for the next set of owners.

 

[STB]

I'm not sure how looped in store managers are, but what the manager told me is that with the growth of Internet and warehouse retailers, and resulting lower retail overhead among competitors, prices have been driven down, and margins have been driven down with them, presenting obvious challenges for a brick-and-mortar vendor trying to maintain a very large network of relatively small community stores.

As West Marine's margins have dropped, I was told that they did, in fact, apply theirt leverage to their vendors, resulting in a situation where now both West Marine and the vendors are operating with very thin margins.

That, I was told, might be fine, except I was told West Marine retail customers have an exceptionally high rate of returning or exchanging products as defective or otherwise non-resellable, and, worse, have an extremely high rate of having those products found to be working when tested by the vendor.

So, I was told, that West Marine is trying to find alternative vendors where possible, including for West marine branded products, but, especially for big-ticket and brnad-dominated markets, is simply having to make the return of defective items harder, especially ones that aren't really defective. The way they are doing this is by forcing the customer to pay shipping back to the manufacturer, assuming that customers will do this for broken things, but not simply to renew older things.

I don't envy West Marine's retail position. But, if they don't find a better way, whcih might be simply to raise prices and provide exceptional service and inventory availability, they are going to turn into another specialized sporting goods store turned into sporting-themed clothing store, turned into a page of history. I think.

Even the average employee I meet there is less likely to be knoweledgeable these days. There seem to be some retired baoters who know things well -- but a much larger crowd of folks who could just as easily manage, cashier, or stock at the grocery store.

Again, I don't know how West Marine can pay for more specialized help with pressures being what they are, I guess just my making it a fun job for a boater. But, having a much lower likelihood of chatting with people who know anything about the products, never mind have first hand experience and tips, has made me less likely to go. I think, "Let me check the forums and reviews and then order this on Amazon and see how I like it" vs "Let me head over to the story and see if X, who really knows their stuff, thinks I'd be better off with X or Y."

 

[BandB]

I'm not sure how looped in store managers are, but what the manager told me is that with the growth of Internet and warehouse retailers, and resulting lower retail overhead among competitors, prices have been driven down, and margins have been driven down with them, presenting obvious challenges for a brick-and-mortar vendor trying to maintain a very large network of relatively small community stores.

As West Marine's margins have dropped, I was told that they did, in fact, apply theirt leverage to their vendors, resulting in a situation where now both West Marine and the vendors are operating with very thin margins.

That, I was told, might be fine, except I was told West Marine retail customers have an exceptionally high rate of returning or exchanging products as defective or otherwise non-resellable, and, worse, have an extremely high rate of having those products found to be working when tested by the vendor.

So, I was told, that West Marine is trying to find alternative vendors where possible, including for West marine branded products, but, especially for big-ticket and brnad-dominated markets, is simply having to make the return of defective items harder, especially ones that aren't really defective. The way they are doing this is by forcing the customer to pay shipping back to the manufacturer, assuming that customers will do this for broken things, but not simply to renew older things.

I don't envy West Marine's retail position. But, if they don't find a better way, whcih might be simply to raise prices and provide exceptional service and inventory availability, they are going to turn into another specialized sporting goods store turned into sporting-themed clothing store, turned into a page of history. I think.

Even the average employee I meet there is less likely to be knoweledgeable these days. There seem to be some retired baoters who know things well -- but a much larger crowd of folks who could just as easily manage, cashier, or stock at the grocery store.

Again, I don't know how West Marine can pay for more specialized help with pressures being what they are, I guess just my making it a fun job for a boater. But, having a much lower likelihood of chatting with people who know anything about the products, never mind have first hand experience and tips, has made me less likely to go. I think, "Let me check the forums and reviews and then order this on Amazon and see how I like it" vs "Let me head over to the story and see if X, who really knows their stuff, thinks I'd be better off with X or Y."

I agree that West Marine faces very difficult challenges. However, I'd encourage them to look at very similar and very successful businesses. Look at O'Reilly, Advance, Auto-Zone, and look at Ace Hardware as examples.

 

[dhays]

I agree that West Marine faces very difficult challenges. However, I'd encourage them to look at very similar and very successful businesses. Look at O'Reilly, Advance, Auto-Zone, and look at Ace Hardware as examples.

Good point. I just changed the engine oil and transmission fluid in my boat. I picked them up at Auto-Zone. They are located a 1/2 mile from my office. They always have what I’m looking for. More importantly, I can return the used oil and tranny fluid to the store for disposal. It costs me a lot more than Walmart or O’Reily’s but I won’t buy oil from anyplace that won’t accept the used oil back.

There is a Ace Hardware in the town where I keep my boat. Great selection and great service. Prices are higher, but I don’t mind paying for the convenience.

 

[Ski in NC]

Our two local hardware stores are gradually increasing their stock of boat related supplies. I guess they have sensed some opportunity.

 

[SoWhat]

There is a Ace Hardware in the town where I keep my boat. Great selection and great service. Prices are higher, but I don’t mind paying for the convenience.

Ace doesn't charge 4X higher than online. West tried price matching but quickly reverted to price gouging. West is still trying to be all things to all people. Huge clothing section, rows of fishing rods, aisle of high end winches, and the store is empty every time I go in to pick up some SS screws. Poor business model.

I order online when possible. If not I order from local boatyard from their Kellogg catalog. Usually next day delivery. I would rather support my local boatyard.

 

[tiltrider1]

But you can't walk in to a local amazon store and pick up what you need. Or measure it and compare it to other products.

If price is the objective, amazon is no longer the lowest price for many products. Do a web search and you will likely beat the amazon price, even considering shipping costs.

You can walk into West Marine but my recent experience is they don’t have it but Amazon does.

Price is never the objective. Value is the objective. While you might find it cheaper some where else, can you trust them with your personal data, can you trust them to deliver in a timely manner, can you trust them to back the product.

 

[BandB]

Ace doesn't charge 4X higher than online. West tried price matching but quickly reverted to price gouging. West is still trying to be all things to all people. Huge clothing section, rows of fishing rods, aisle of high end winches, and the store is empty every time I go in to pick up some SS screws. Poor business model.

I order online when possible. If not I order from local boatyard from their Kellogg catalog. Usually next day delivery. I would rather support my local boatyard.

The point I was making is that Ace has a very successful business model as to the auto parts people like Auto-Zone, O'Reilly's, NAPA, and Advance. Similar type products with similar threats from online and, in the case of Ace, from Lowes and Home Depot. These are all businesses classified by analysts together. Look at the metrics of others and figure it out.

Now, I'm always the one who chooses a different direction, but if I was suddenly the buyer of West, I'd add significant inventory and employees to every store, but then I've posted in answer to questions of what I would do previously. I'd also push delivery capabilities.

As to them trying to be all things to all people, not a completely bad strategy. I have no problem having some higher margin items but I have a major issue with being our of the very basics. They've really hurt themselves too with you needing two or four of something which normally is used in quantities like that but they never have the number you need. Two metrics I'd work on, sales per sq ft and gross margin.

 

[AlaskaProf]

I have never, ever had a problem with West Marine not accepting a return. Ever.

I bought a pair of West Marine binoculars and they broke after a couple years. I took them to the store and they had been discontinued. The guy at the store got on the computer, found a replacement pair at another store and had them shipped to me.

I had a West Marine dinghy air pump fail when I was on a cruise. I took it to a nearby store, they looked up my purchase and handed me a replacement.

I was told this is their new policy: "We no longer provide any warranty for the products we sell."

 

[dannc]

I find it sooooo ironic that Sears, a company that started as a mail order company and then built a chain of brick and mortar stores, which were eventually connected by a very sophisticated computer and network infrastructure, is going out of business, while Amazon, the new mail order company, is growing by leaps and bounds including building bricks and mortar stores.

As an aside, how crazy is the English language, when the word mortar is a "glue" holding stuff together, a device to mix stuff together or a thing that blows stuff up?

I have found that buying from Amazon is usually the cheapest and fastest way to get things. My truck has an International engine, of which millions have been built, yet I have had trouble finding fuel and oil filters in local stores. I once went to three stores and not one filter was to be found.

Another irony, my JD tractor dealer DID keep these filters in stock. Yes, a JD dealer stocked fuel and oil filters for an International engine in a Ford truck. JD's prices were cheaper than the local parts stores. I could email my sales guy on Monday and have the parts Tuesday or Wednesday.

Unfortunately, my sales guy went to another JD dealer, and I then would have to call the parts desk and wait for someone to answer the phone. I don't have time for that crap so I started buying on Amazon.

Convenience is worth something. While I would love to buy from local stores, I can count the number of times I have gone to the store, and they do not have what I need. This usually wastes quite a bit of my time and so often, I could have ordered what I needed from Amazon, usually at cheaper prices, than the time it took for me to walk from my truck into the store. The time it takes to GET to the store and walk around looking for what they don't have is wasteful and frustrating.

I just needed some boat related stuff. I NEEDED a few things but I also WANTED some Dyneemia. Fishery Supplies had everything I needed but at slightly higher prices than Amazon. Fine, I want Fishery to stay in business and the Dyneemia Fishery will cut to the length I need, which Amazon does not. Fair enough. However, there was one thing I needed, that Fishery did not have, but Amazon did....

Since my want of Dyneemia was trumped by what I needed, but what I needed was not available at Fishery, Amazon got the order.

Two of the things I bought were cheaper at Amazon. One was a set of needles. Amazon had Singer brand and Fishery had some other brand but looking at the packages, they were the same needles, packaged the same but with a different wrapper with a different name.

Fishery was also lacking details and photos on some other products I was looking at buying, and which I did not buy, because of this lack of information.

Decades ago, I was in a West Marine and it was obvious they were more into selling clothes than boat parts. Recently we were in another West Marine and they had a fair amount of empty space. We were actually looking for boat rain gear but their selection was not good at all. They did have lots of T shirts and flip flops though. Which we could get at the numerous beach stores...

A company that does not have inventory looses the sale when that customer walks out empty handed. That company is likely to loose future sales when the customer stops going to the store because it is a crap shoot if the store will have what the customer needs....

Make it hard to buy and the customer will not be buying at the store, they will go to another store/company where the products is available and easy to buy...

Later,
Dan

 

[twistedtree]

I'd argue that retail stores exist for one, and only one reason - service. Service means knowledgeable staff who can steer you in the right direction, or help you solve a problem. Service means a person to help you work through any problems you have with the product, whether that involves a return, exchange, repair, or whatever. Service means products that are in stock, and competitively priced. Competitively priced doesn't mean it has to be the lowest price. I think we are all willing to pay more for quick access to a products, and for good support of that product. But it needs to be in line with other retail outlets. BandB has touched on a key thing which is inventory. If a retail store doesn't have something in stock, then what good are they?


Without service, it's much easier to buy from one of the many online vending machines. Increasingly, the Amazon vending machine is providing faster access to products, and better return service that retail stores.


To me the most glaring failing of West is that there are countless brick and mortar retail marine supply outfits that sell over the counter for significantly less than West, have more knowledgeable employees, and provide better service. So all this crap about the cost of a store front, and boo-hoo margins due to online sales is just that - a bunch of crap. If others can do it, then West should be able to as well.

 

[rwidman]

I was told this is their new policy: "We no longer provide any warranty for the products we sell."

I would want to see that in writing. Certainly, most products they sell do have a warranty of some sort.

And if you bought something in the past with a lifetime warranty, I don't believe they could deny that.

Please post a link to what you were told.

 

[AlaskaProf]

I would want to see that in writing. Certainly, most products they sell do have a warranty of some sort.

And if you bought something in the past with a lifetime warranty, I don't believe they could deny that.

Please post a link to what you were told.

I was told, "it's on our website." Not planning further research.

 

[BandB]

I was told, "it's on our website." Not planning further research.

Well, that's not what is on their website. You got your refund. I don't know what took place in the process or who said what to whom. But their policies are on their website and are not as broad as you're saying or feel you were told.

Now, we're talking too different issues. Refund vs. warranty. They offer refunds under certain circumstances. However, they never were the warranty provider.

 

[rwidman]

Well, that's not what is on their website. You got your refund. I don't know what took place in the process or who said what to whom. But their policies are on their website and are not as broad as you're saying or feel you were told.

Now, we're talking too different issues. Refund vs. warranty. They offer refunds under certain circumstances. However, they never were the warranty provider.

I believe they are the warranty provider on products sold under their brand name. I bought a WM branded dinghy inflator pump and it failed while I was cruising. I took it to a West Marine store, they looked up my purchase and handed me a new one.

They have also replaced a couple Taylor Made fenders for me that failed. No charge.

 

[rwidman]

I was told, "it's on our website." Not planning further research.

I'm only asking you to back up your statement. Otherwise, it's an unsubstantiated claim, nothing more and nothing to take seriously.

 

[twistedtree]

I would want to see that in writing. Certainly, most products they sell do have a warranty of some sort.

And if you bought something in the past with a lifetime warranty, I don't believe they could deny that.

Please post a link to what you were told.

But the warranty is a manufacturer's warranty, not West's.

 

[rwidman]

But the warranty is a manufacturer's warranty, not West's.

West Marine sells many things under it's own brand name. Even though they may not own the factory, that makes them the "manufacturer" for warranty purposes.

 

[twistedtree]

West Marine sells many things under it's own brand name. Even though they may not own the factory, that makes them the "manufacturer" for warranty purposes.

Yes, I agree for West branded products.

 

[MYTraveler]

I should say that I mostly blame this policy on the customers who took dishonest advantage of their old policy and would exchange products for new ones, need it or not, 1 day before the warranty was up and return discontinued electronics to buybthe new model. West Marine apparently had an industry leading NPF rate on in-store exchanged andnlate returned warranty claims.

In this day and age, it is easy for a retailer to track the return history of its customers. And some do and will not accept returns from customers with bad histories. I

 

[AlaskaProf]

I'm only asking you to back up your statement. Otherwise, it's an unsubstantiated claim, nothing more and nothing to take seriously.

Not my statement, the store manager who was very reluctantly giving me the refund I sought while warning me it was against their policy.

I don't have to "back up" her statement. And you don't have to "take it seriously."

 

[BandB]

I believe they are the warranty provider on products sold under their brand name. I bought a WM branded dinghy inflator pump and it failed while I was cruising. I took it to a West Marine store, they looked up my purchase and handed me a new one.

They have also replaced a couple Taylor Made fenders for me that failed. No charge.

That would be the case.

 

[BandB]

In this day and age, it is easy for a retailer to track the return history of its customers. And some do and will not accept returns from customers with bad histories. I

Typical approach is to accept return and inform customer it's the last one. Even Amazon does that.

 

[STB]

There may be a difference between a policy and a practice here. I don't know that they ever promised to do exchanges of reported defective products for customers during the warranty period.But, their relationship with vendors apparently allowed it and, in practice, they did and customers came to expect it.

Now, they don't seem to have that practice, seemingly because price pressure and customer behavior changed their relationship with their vendors.

Indeed, they could monitor customer behavior and react to it. But, that requires a bunch of investment-- and opens up a big can of worms in terms of PR when some are denied but. Ot others, even if the reason is a magic 8 ball nit human discretion.

 

[jhall767]

FYI - They no longer exchange Taylor Made Fenders with no questions asked. You have to get an RMA from Taylor Made.

I don't think that was West Marine's decision though.

 

[Blissboat]

I find it sooooo ironic that Sears, a company that started as a mail order company and then built a chain of brick and mortar stores, which were eventually connected by a very sophisticated computer and network infrastructure, is going out of business, while Amazon, the new mail order company, is growing by leaps and bounds including building bricks and mortar stores.

Have often thought the same. It was in the early 1980s, under heavy pressure from discounters, and even heavier pressure from runaway price inflation (making it impossible to publish prices more than a week or so in advance), that Sears eliminated its catalogue operation. They missed the technological revolution of the internet by about 15 years and a generation of traditionally-minded retail executives. The web, together with the UPC bar code might have saved them. But by the time those innovations arrived at the scene of the accident, Sears had already been overrun and occupied by their once-detested competitor, K-Mart - now also teetering on extinction.

 

[dhays]

I'm only asking you to back up your statement. Otherwise, it's an unsubstantiated claim, nothing more and nothing to take seriously.

Back up a bit. Alaskaprof was simply relaying what he was told by the employee. If you have questions if the WM employee was accurately describing their policy that is fine.

OTOH, doubting the veracity of what Alaskaprof relayed to us would not be acceptable.