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Old 03-30-2016, 07:11 PM   #81
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Try cruising up vs down the Mississippi (or other Mid West rivers), and you would be amazed at the difference in performance.
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Old 03-30-2016, 08:15 PM   #82
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Yeah the new electronic engines are always accurate concerning fuel usage . My brothers f350 diesel dually crew cab (6.4 liter) gets 34 mpg according to the digital read out. I think He's afraid to actually measure the usage cause then he'd need to lie about it. Or maybe he is now. Anyway, I wish my same truck would get 20 mpg. I talked to a guy once, on my way back from Alaska, that was driving a 34 foot motorhome with a Ford V10 engine. My 36 footer with a Cat 3126 got about 10 mpg. His V10 got 15 mpg. Or so he said. My F250 V10, unloaded, struggles to get 10 mpg. So, anytime I hear fuel burn numbers that are not substantiated I take it with a grain of salt. I still wish my trawler could get 3NMPG. But then I'm not inclined to BS.
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Old 03-30-2016, 08:50 PM   #83
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Two different things: These are flow meters added to mechanical engines, they have the subtraction error issue at low flow.

Nothing like electronic common rail or electronic unit injector engines, where the built in algorithms have proven quite accurate. No subtraction error there.
I think properly set up and used the current models of flow meters available are also quite accurate on mechanical engines. I think the errors you are discussing were in much earlier and less refined times of flow meters. The change is not just the meter, but the knowledge of how to install and use it.

I think Codger's experience is more in line with what is seen on the current models. I don't know the nature of his engines.
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Old 03-30-2016, 08:58 PM   #84
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Where the hell is Hell's Gate?

I thought it was in the canyon on the Frazer River in BC.
You can stew about current or just go with (or against) the flow. Almost always the current just means you get there later ... or earlier. It's really not a big deal for most of us. But obviously on a river current can be a big deal. I remember a comic in the 60's (or was it the 70's?) "What me Worry?"
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Old 03-30-2016, 09:10 PM   #85
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Hell Gate is in the East River in New York City. Currents in both directions (tidal) of 5 knots or so max. Swirling, used to be full of rocks, thousands of shipwrecks and tons of gold at the bottom.
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Old 03-30-2016, 09:19 PM   #86
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Greetings,
Mr. mb. There are 13 "Hell's Gates" in North America. The one I was referring to is on the East River in NYC. Tidal current can run, from memory, 5 knots+.
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Old 03-30-2016, 09:19 PM   #87
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My speed over ground usually varies between 3.8 and 8.8 knots at 1800 RPM/1.7 gallons an hour.
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Old 03-31-2016, 05:46 AM   #88
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Where the hell is Hell's Gate?
On the East Coast, we seem to have plenty of Hell's Gates.
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Old 03-31-2016, 06:16 AM   #89
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On the East Coast, we seem to have plenty of Hell's Gates.
Hells Gate, gap in Cochise County, Arizona
Hells Gate, gap in Gila County, Arizona
Hells Gate, gap in Santa Cruz County, Arizona
Hells Gate, point of interest in Death Valley National Park, California
Hells Gate, cliff in Eagle County, Colorado
Hells Gate, channel in Collier County, Florida near Marco Island
Hells Gate, channel in Camden County, Georgia
Hells Gate State Park, just outside Lewiston, Idaho
Hell's Gate, stretch of rapids on the Kettle River in Banning State Park, Minnesota
Hell Gate, Montana, near the eastern end of the Missoula Valley, Montana
Hells Gate, gap in Esmeralda County, Nevada
Hell Gate, narrow tidal channel in the East River in New York City, United States
Hells Gate, channel in Curry County, Oregon
Hells Gate, channel in Palo Pinto County, Texas
Hells Gate, a channel of the Columbia River at the mouth of Hells Gate Canyon, in Klickitat County, Washington
Hell Gate, a gorge and former rapids of the Columbia River, located at the mouth of Hell Gate Canyon
Hellgate Canyon, a gorge and rapids on the Rogue River in Josephine County, Oregon

That's a few. Just in the US. Many more around the world.
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Old 03-31-2016, 06:17 AM   #90
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The current running out of Cook Inlet in Alaska runs pretty hard, but here in south Louisiana the only real current we have to deal with is the Miss. River. Although at times we see a 3 to 4 knot current in the gulf but normally 1 knot or less, and mostly tidal influence. Still on a slow boat it makes a difference. I do think that the new electronic engines that keep track of injector open time to calculate fuel usage are more accurate in fuel burn numbers. In my quest for better range I will probably install a pair of small common rail engines in my trawler. Even a 1 NMPG increase would make it worthwhile. My total range would go from 3600 miles (barely adequate) to 4800 miles, much lower pucker factor.
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Old 03-31-2016, 07:13 AM   #91
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It is my understanding that the clearing of the NYC Hell Gate was the largest explosion until WWII and the first nuke.

Today its more history than dangerous although the water does get up to speed.

A delight , if you are going with the flow, timing is everything.
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Old 03-31-2016, 07:29 AM   #92
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Many years ago, on my first sailboat, a Tylercraft 24, we sailed down thru Hells Gate, circled Roosevelt Island and came north. Before we got back into Hells Gate, we realized we were sailing backwards, witht the sails full and the engine on. We learned a lot on that cruise.
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Old 03-31-2016, 08:04 AM   #93
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I think Codger's experience is more in line with what is seen on the current models. I don't know the nature of his engines.
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Old 03-31-2016, 06:47 PM   #94
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Baker,
Get a grip ... the current is usually fly crap even w my 6 knot boat.
Sure is easy to tell when you've got one foot in the cockpit.
Hey Eric, get a grip. This is all mental masturbation anyway. For 99% of us, if we need fuel, we will just stop and get it. And we will plan our trips with fuel stops in mind. We all have a very good idea of the range of our boats. And if you think a 2 knot current in a 6 knot boat is insignificant, so be it. It irritates me when my 18knot cruise is cut back to 16.
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Old 03-31-2016, 08:59 PM   #95
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John,
So be it .....
You live in a different world. We almost don't need to stop for fuel going to Ketchikan. We always stop once. We just don't need to worry about the fuel burn or the range. If we experience current (head current?) that slows us down a bit we'll pick an anchorage 10 miles closer to anchor. I remember bucking 4 knots of tidal flow in Knight Inlet knocking us down to two knots for 2 or 3hrs. Two hours later we were in a channel running w an 4 knot current making 10 knots. This bucking current worrying about getting where you want to go just seems sorta up tight to me.

That reminds me ... gotta get more fuel.
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Old 04-01-2016, 12:14 AM   #96
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John,
So be it .....
You live in a different world. We almost don't need to stop for fuel going to Ketchikan. We always stop once. We just don't need to worry about the fuel burn or the range. If we experience current (head current?) that slows us down a bit we'll pick an anchorage 10 miles closer to anchor. I remember bucking 4 knots of tidal flow in Knight Inlet knocking us down to two knots for 2 or 3hrs. Two hours later we were in a channel running w an 4 knot current making 10 knots. This bucking current worrying about getting where you want to go just seems sorta up tight to me.

That reminds me ... gotta get more fuel.
Then we are in full agreement. This is all just a mental exercise. If we need fuel, we stop and get it. Nothing up tight here. Just a discussion in a theoretical world. In reality, just stop for fuel. But like I said, a head current is irritating!!!

While we are at it... Let's say you have a ten knot boat and you need to go ten nautical miles. BUT, you have a two know current....8 knot ground speed. So it takes you 75 minutes to go that 10NM. You lost 15 minutes. Now let's turn around and go the other way. Do you do it in 15 minutes less??? I mean it cost you 15 minutes going against it. Does you gain 15 minutes going the other way??? Why or why not???
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Old 04-01-2016, 01:06 AM   #97
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It's not a mental exercise if you're crossing an ocean. I plan to do that one day. So I'm interested in this topic. Until then I buy fuel because I feel like it not because I need it.

On your current dilemma: if the current were 5kt against you you'd take an extra 60 mins to do the 10nm distance. Would you expect to do the trip in no time at all going the other way???
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Old 04-01-2016, 06:03 AM   #98
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While we are at it... Let's say you have a ten knot boat and you need to go ten nautical miles. BUT, you have a two know current....8 knot ground speed. So it takes you 75 minutes to go that 10NM. You lost 15 minutes. Now let's turn around and go the other way. Do you do it in 15 minutes less??? I mean it cost you 15 minutes going against it. Does you gain 15 minutes going the other way??? Why or why not???

You will gain only 10 min traveling with the current:

T = D / SOG with SOG = StW + / - Current
(T - time, D - distance, SOG - speed over ground, StW - speed through water, + / - current is with / against = head current)

Your numbers above:
Up the river T = 10 nm / (10 kn - 2 kn) = 1.25 hrs = 75 min
Down the river T = 10 nm / (10 kn + 2 kn) = 0.833 hrs = 50 min



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Old 04-01-2016, 06:16 AM   #99
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Hmmm....OK, where did that 5 minutes go and keep in mind I'm only on my first cup of coffee?
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Old 04-01-2016, 06:58 AM   #100
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For your second cup of coffee:
Down the river you will have only 8.3 nm on your log i.e. 17% less than over ground, while up the river you travelled 12.5 nm through the water i.e. your logged distance is 25% higher than over ground ...


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