Fresh Water Boat Premium?

[lwilham]

Curious as to everyone’s thoughts on whether or not a “freshwater” boat was worth a premium price. Seems like boats listed as freshwater only are offered at higher prices, sometimes up to 20% or more. Regardless of where we buy our boat, we’re going to take it into salt water, and as soon as it touches salt water that “fresh water only” description goes away, along with the higher price.

I know that condition and maintenance mean more than anything else, and each boat is different, but how much better is a 10-20 year old boat that has never seen salt?

 

[DDW]

It's better, and no mistake. 20% better? That depends on the value put on condition.

My custom built sailboat spent two years in the Great Lakes fresh water, then when we hit the salt at Quebec City, more corrosion in two weeks than in the last 2 years.

 

[Comodave]

It is nice to have a fresh water only boat but for me it was not spa deal breaker since we were unable to find what we wanted in a fresh water only boat. We brought our boat back to the Great Lakes from saltwater. I have spent quite a bit of time working on it to remove the effects of the saltwater. Besides we had the enjoyment of running the boat home.

 

[Bacchus]

When I was looking for a Mainship 34HT 4-5 yes old I looked a few salt water ones that were showing their age and SW exposure. I found a fresh water one and it was nite & day difference.
I can't imagine what 20 yrs in salt vs fresh would be like.
It's not only what's visible but the hidden stuff is what I would wonder about... exhaust system, water & oil & tranny heat xchangers, electrical connections... etc

 

[Fletcher500]

This topic gets discussed a lot. IMO, two boats, one in salt and one in fresh, all other factors being equal, the fresh water boat is worth the premium.

 

[JLD]

Interesting thread.


One could probably even dice it further. How about north versus south? Six month versus 12 month boating season? What about bays?


Here's a map that I found on-line for the Chesapeake Bay salinity:

Jim

 

[caltexflanc]

The length of the season adds value, and even more bonus if kept in covered, heated storage over the winter.

And as mentioned, all premiums are only relevant to comparing boats roughly of same age (years and hours) and model that have received the same care.

 

[boatpoker]

Take a look at my Salt Water Corrosion photo album. You won't see anything like this on a fresh water boat ... Your call.

 

[Bacchus]

Take a look at my Salt Water Corrosion photo album. You won't see anything like this on a fresh water boat ... Your call.

Exactly.
I would and gladly paid a premium for a FW boat.
Great Lakes are a good place to search... generally lower hrs than southern boats due to shorter seasons.

 

[DDW]

It isn't just salinity, temperature plays a major role as well. Chloride corrosion is greatly accelerated at elevated temperatures, and the difference is significant between say 45 deg north and 25 deg north latitude. 55 deg water vs. 80+ deg water.

 

[lwilham]

Appreciate the comments from you all. The one variable I don’t know at this point is how long we’re going to keep the boat. If it was a long term investment the premium would seem absolutely worth it. If we’re going to keep it only 2-3 years, and we’re going to use it in salt water, it still might be worth it for us, just not for resale value.

I’m learning. Compromise is the key. Thanks again to all who commented, and for the pics boatpoker.

 

[Reo Baird]

I'll actually take the opposite stance here.

To me, "freshwater boat" is a meaningless marketing term. Would not pay a cent more.

A well maintained saltwater boat will be much nicer than a poorly maintained freshwater boat. Each boat should be judged on its own merits. This is what the viewing, surveying, and sea trial are for.

Would I pay a premium for boat A, which happens to be in much nicer shape than boat B? Sure, but it would be based on me viewing both boats, and making my own determination on the condition and value.

Basically, I would pay no heed to anything in the ad listing (you can't verify stuff like this anyhow, especially on an older boat) and let the boat speak for itself. Corrosion, poor maintenance, etc. will all be easy to spot with detailed inspection.


That said, speaking generally, pros of a saltwater boat:
- Possible better systems installations, based on saltwater use-case
- Less rot issues (salt water prevents rot)
- Boat is "proven" in salt water - bonding system, bottom paint, zinc sizing, etc. are all good to go for salt

Pros of freshwater boat:
- Possibly less corrosion, especially in raw water cooling loop
- Possibly in better overall condition due to less demanding use-case

 

[Bacchus]

Reo B
Interesting perspective... I agree in part and agree this is not an area to generalize. Every boat needs to stand on it's own merits.
That said I would travel longer distances to check out a FW boat that has the potential to be a winner. There are many items & areas that are hard or expensive to inspect on a boat and often those hidden items can be expensive.
Also agree if the pedigree doesn't clearly show exclusive FW use it's a gamble. Complete Owner records are always a key factor.

 

[sunchaser]

Reo Bird in #12 nailed it. Judge the boat first. I've seen some pretty ratty boats that spent their whole "storage" life undercover in Lake Union. I've seen pristine vessels that have always been in salt water. Best yet IMHO, a single owner boat in great shape who has kept good records.

 

[BDofMSP]

Well certainly you're only buying a single boat and you must consider that boat on it's own merits. He acknowledge that the individual boat is what matters in the end. But the question was about freshwater boats as a class, and clearly as a 10-20 year old freshwater boat will suffer less corrosion and surface damage, and will look better than the same saltwater boat with the same maintenance.

Which is why as a buyer the OP is noticing across the board premiums for these boats. The typical boat of a particular year is generally in better shape if kept in freshwater.

 

[Shrew]

A well maintained saltwater boat will be much nicer than a poorly maintained freshwater boat.

I have to agree. On points that matter, like water intrusion and soft-decks, FW vs SW is irrelevant. Closed coooled engines are irrelevant as well, with the exception of periodically servicing the raw water portion of the closed cooling system.

On a well maintained 20-yr-old saltwater boat, most equipment is less than 5-10 years old.

On a well maintained 20-yr-old freshwater boat, most equipment is 20 years old.

 

[Donsan]

On a well maintained 20-yr-old saltwater boat, most equipment is less than 5-10 years old.

On a well maintained 20-yr-old freshwater boat, most equipment is 20 years old.

Good point. We bought an always fresh water 30 year old Taiwanese Tub and most of the equipment was 30 years old. Ended up pitching the Loran-C and a complete spare. The exception was a Garmin GPSMAP 2010C which was 15 years old...as were the maps. Yeah, Garmin obsoleted that too but it amazes me how many boats for sale on YW still have the Garmin 2xxx series of chartplotters.

 

[lwilham]

Great points and opinions, and again, much appreciated.

I was assuming "all else being equal" so two boats, same model, similar engine hours, maintenance, appearance and condition. Especially if I'm going to use it salt and fresh water, would it be worth the premium?

From the comments (like everything with boats) the answer is "it depends."

Again, great comments, and more stuff for me to think about while perusing Yachtworld.

The search continues...

 

[Rossland]

Another wrinkle. If you were to buy a Great Lakes fresh water boat today, you won't get to enjoy it for six months. Then plan carefully if you want to get it out of there next summer. If it is too big to truck, will it fit under the low bridges at Chicago, or the Erie Canal, or will you have to sail down the St Laurence River and around Nova Scotia.

 

[Seevee]

I'll actually take the opposite stance here.

To me, "freshwater boat" is a meaningless marketing term. Would not pay a cent more.

A well maintained saltwater boat will be much nicer than a poorly maintained freshwater boat. Each boat should be judged on its own merits. This is what the viewing, surveying, and sea trial are for.

Would I pay a premium for boat A, which happens to be in much nicer shape than boat B? Sure, but it would be based on me viewing both boats, and making my own determination on the condition and value.

Basically, I would pay no heed to anything in the ad listing (you can't verify stuff like this anyhow, especially on an older boat) and let the boat speak for itself. Corrosion, poor maintenance, etc. will all be easy to spot with detailed inspection.


That said, speaking generally, pros of a saltwater boat:
- Possible better systems installations, based on saltwater use-case
- Less rot issues (salt water prevents rot)
- Boat is "proven" in salt water - bonding system, bottom paint, zinc sizing, etc. are all good to go for salt

Pros of freshwater boat:
- Possibly less corrosion, especially in raw water cooling loop
- Possibly in better overall condition due to less demanding use-case

Reo,

However, a well maintained fresh water boat is SIGNIFICANTLY better than a poorly maintained boat.

Sure we need to compare apples with apples. If it's the same boat and same maintenance, the freshwater boat wins hands down. Not even close.

Now having said that, other factors like availability and transportation and distance come into play. If the fresh water boat is worth 20% more, one could pay more than 20% in just going back and forth, and ferry time to get it home..... all depends.

 

[Seevee]

Take a look at my Salt Water Corrosion photo album. You won't see anything like this on a fresh water boat ... Your call.

Just as a matter of a good web site comment, I'm sure it would be improved by putting your location online where it's easy to find. Pet peeve.... so many people try to hide themselves on line and want to do business with others?

 

[Donsan]

Noticed a freshwater 2005 Sea Ray 390 Motor Yacht that came on the market today or yesterday for $209K located at Sturgeon Bay WI.

There are several other 2005 Sea Ray 390 Motor Yachts for sale listed by location and the premium being asked for the freshwater boat:
Mt Pleasant NJ $189K premium 10.6%
Longboat Key FL $200K premium 4.5%
Miami FL $200K premium 4.5%
Kemah TX $190K premium 10.0%
Osage Beach MO (also a freshwater boat) $200K premium 4.5% (sale pending)

So, the premium for this sample ranges from 4.5-10.6% without taking into consideration differences in the boat condition and equipment. The boat are Osage Beach in addition to being freshwater is kept under cover but probably requires shipping to get it to navigable waters. There are other differences in the boats and their equipment list. It doesn't appear to be that high of a premium. YMMV

 

[DavidM]

I will bet I can take a well built boat that has lived in seawater all of its life and for less than $2,000 replace and refurbish everything that routinely contacts sea water to the point that even a surveyor couldn't tell it from a fresh water boat.


Admittedly there are some invisible things that are affected by sea water- exchangers and aftercoolers that a surveyor can't see. Another $5,000 will take care of those.



David

 

[LongJohn]

I bought my boat on the Illinois River. Surveyor added a 20% freshwater premium which I did not pay. Zero corrosion issues. Zincs have never been changed and are indistinguishable from new. And then enjoyed a wonderful 1200 sm cruise back to Knoxville. Here, it lives in a covered slip and is winterized in the water from December thru February. Yes, the electronics are original but they work just fine - no corrosion issues from salt air exposure.

 

[Reo Baird]

Reo,

Sure we need to compare apples with apples. If it's the same boat and same maintenance, the freshwater boat wins hands down. Not even close.
.

I still disagree on this point. Same boat with same level of maintenance, it will be a wash. Note, not same dollars spent or same items replaced. The well-maintained saltwater boat will likely have a lot more invested in it. But, this is irrelevant when buying the boat, since maintenance going forward is a function of current condition, and intended future use-case (saltwater in this case).

My take is this: I've bought and sold ~20-30 boats and looked at several hundred. In my personal experience the tag "freshwater boat" is just not a reliable indicator of a boat being a good buy. Other marketing terms I ignore include single owner, run in sheltered water, etc. etc.

For my money, for saltwater application, I slightly prefer a saltwater boat. I will take the boat that's been sitting the last few years in salt water without issue. Less worry about whether the previous owner did substandard installations or repairs using freshwater materials, or has some lurking corrosion control issue. If the boat has been sitting in salt water for a long time, and shows well, it gives me confidence.

I was assuming "all else being equal" so two boats, same model, similar engine hours, maintenance, appearance and condition. Especially if I'm going to use it salt and fresh water, would it be worth the premium?

If they are equal, why pay more for one over the other? This is a real hypothetical though, because you will never find two equal boats, probably not even off the showroom floor. One is going to be nicer, and it's just a matter of whether the nicer one is worth the premium.

But, what makes the nicer boat nicer will be apparent in survey. The idea that the saltwater boat has a bunch of insidious hidden corrosion issues is not realistic. You'll know up front post-survey what you're getting yourself into. Hiring a reputable surveyor, and be comprehensive in your inspections. Energy spent here will pay off. Ignore (or take with a real grain of salt) any marketing speak or seller-provided information.

It's also not always that the seller is lying to you either. They often just don't know. I've bought a boat where the seller explicitly told me one main engine is blown and requires complete rebuild. Took me a few hours work to get it up and running. I sold that boat for over 3 times what I paid. I did my own due diligence and inspections and even told the owner I don't think the engine's blown. He just wanted it gone.

 

[Capt Jack]

One other consideration in looking at northern freshwater boats if you are going to bring them to southern climates is do they have AC and a generator that will support AC use. When we were looking for our trawler a lot of Great Lakes boats lacked either one or both items. That can easily add $10 to $20k if you need to add them

John

 

[ksanders]

My thoughts are inline with Reo’s posts above.

If a boat was designed to live it’s life in saltwater then it is a reasonable expectation that corrosion should not be an issue on the boat.

After all that is what the boat was designed to do.

As an ocean boater if I ever inspected a boat and found significant corrosion I would certainly not only not purchase that boat, I would re-consider wether that model and or manufacturer was the right boat for saltwater use.

Again as an ocean boater I want to have a proven platform. One that has successfully done what I am going to ask of it. For the same reason I would never buy a low hour dock queen over a often cruised boat.

So for me a fresh water boat not only would not brng a premium, it might actually be the opposite.

 

[boatpoker]

My thoughts are inline with Reo’s posts above.

If a boat was designed to live it’s life in saltwater then it is a reasonable expectation that corrosion should not be an issue on the boat.

After all that is what the boat was designed to do.

As an ocean boater if I ever inspected a boat and found significant corrosion I would certainly not only not purchase that boat, I would re-consider wether that model and or manufacturer was the right boat for saltwater use.

Again as an ocean boater I want to have a proven platform. One that has successfully done what I am going to ask of it. For the same reason I would never buy a low hour dock queen over a often cruised boat.

So for me a fresh water boat not only would not brng a premium, it might actually be the opposite.

Was not not aware that builders built "ocean boats" and "fresh water" boats.

Of two boats of the same model (any brand), of the same age and same level of maintenance, the fresh water boat will be in far superior condition.

Having surveyed thousands of fresh and salt water boats I have seen nothing on this thread that warrants a reconsideration of my opinion.

 

[ksanders]

Was not not aware that builders built "ocean boats" and "fresh water" boats.

Of two boats of the same model (any brand), of the same age and same level of maintenance, the fresh water boat will be in far superior condition.

Having surveyed thousands of fresh and salt water boats I have seen nothing on this thread that warrants a reconsideration of my opinion.

I respect your opinion, and of course I am not a professional surveyor.

My thoughts are that if a boat is designed for ocean use it is reasonable that using it in the ocean would not cause significant corrosion damage.

My boat for example is 15 years old and has been in salt water it’s entire life. Looking at the engine room the seacocks do not look new, but they do not look corroded either. Looking at the rest of the metalwork on the boat I do not see damage from corrosion. If I saw corrosion related damage that would be a problem, as to me a boat designed for ocean use will not be damaged by merely being in salt water, the place it was designed to be.

 

[Reo Baird]

Was not not aware that builders built "ocean boats" and "fresh water" boats.

Of two boats of the same model (any brand), of the same age and same level of maintenance, the fresh water boat will be in far superior condition.

Yes, many manufacturers offer freshwater & saltwater models. Yes, you're not going to find a "freshwater" trawler or large cruiser, but in smaller boats, plenty of boats sold for freshwater use. Many sub-30ft models are sold in freshwater base trim with saltwater option available at premium. The saltwater trim usually includes some optional extras along with closed loop cooling. Also, there are some aluminum boats built which aren't meant for saltwater as a result of construction technique and grade of alloy used.

When it comes to older used boats, many freshwater boats just don't have the same level of systems installation or materials used are inferior because someone cut corners on a repair or upgrade based on the use-case. Additionally, freshwater boats, by the numbers, are more likely to suffer from rot issues.

I don't know what region you are from, or what type of boats you are surveying, but what you are saying is directly at odds with what I have observed. Namely, well maintained boats are in good condition and poorly maintained boats are in bad condition.

There are so many things that determine the condition of a boat, from use-case, weather, climate, engine hours, frequency of service on mechanical components, upgrades, etc. that saltwater vs freshwater just isn't a very relevant indicator. Especially when two side-by-side listings can be 20-30% different in price with 2000 hours difference on the hour meter and difference in optional features which could span into the multiple 100k range to purchase new. For example, on a trawler, for me, stabilizers is a must. This is way more relevant thing to look for in the listing.

My thoughts are that if a boat is designed for ocean use it is reasonable that using it in the ocean would not cause significant corrosion damage.

This is correct. No reason a well-built composite, or alloy boat can't last many decades with 0 corrosion issues as long as maintained properly. Many do.