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Old 09-29-2016, 07:28 AM   #81
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I too don't reckon credentials automatically invest someone with superior knowledge.

-Chris
Many of us fail to remember that 50% of the DR's finished in the bottom half of their class...same w lawyers...credentials just limit the field but that field ranges from the worst to best in their field.
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Old 09-29-2016, 07:33 AM   #82
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Many of us fail to remember that 50% of the DR's finished in the bottom half of their class...same w lawyers...credentials just limit the field but that field ranges from the worst to best in their field.
And that is where peer review comes in. Boatpoker painted his profession with a far more scathing indictment than any of us laymen ever could.
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Old 09-29-2016, 07:33 AM   #83
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OTOH, if I'm shopping for local help, and don't already know a specialist, I'll usually start looking for a "certified" guy in whatever field or for whatever product needs attention. Expecting (hoping) that certified guy is more knowledgeable than Bubba Off The Street. The credentialed doctor, so to speak.

But then, back to substance. Trust (maybe a little), but verify.

-Chris
I will do the same and when it comes to boats, I choose to use mechanics and yards with factory certification in what they're about to work on. It's one part of a good resume, but it's a minimum requirement.
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Old 09-29-2016, 08:18 AM   #84
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A good example is Boatpoker's position that education is important too.

When I got into the marine trades, it was hard because so many people were telling me to install or repair stuff the "way it was always done". That expression became the kiss of death in the USCG.

My flying background just didn't buy that.

So many "experts"...such as yard managers or contract captains became suspect the more I learned. l like many here evaluating advice, backed it up with some second opinions or more research.

Sure enough, many things being done around me didn't meet many newer standards. It wasn't long before the local boaters grasped the difference of experience with and without the willingness of those who wanted to give the best advice by researching things they weren't absolutely sure of.
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Old 09-29-2016, 09:59 AM   #85
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Many of us fail to remember that 50% of the DR's finished in the bottom half of their class...same w lawyers...credentials just limit the field but that field ranges from the worst to best in their field.

Sure, likely true in any field.


And certainly "credentialed" doesn't necessarily mean "expert."

OTOH, a credentialed (whatever) at the bottom of his class... may know more than many un-credentialed guys off the street. Not to say he's an expert, not to say he knows more than some or even many un-credentialed guys... just that, in the absence of other useful into (referrals, word-of-mouth reputations, etc.)... maybe that's a better place to start relative to alternatives.

Maybe.

-Chris
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Old 09-29-2016, 10:01 AM   #86
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in the absence of other useful into (referrals, word-of-mouth reputations, etc.)... maybe that's a better place to start relative to alternatives.

Maybe.

-Chris
Agreed.
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Old 09-29-2016, 10:37 AM   #87
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I would like to state for the record that everything I say is wrong.
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Old 09-29-2016, 10:39 AM   #88
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OK, I'm back. Wow we have come around quite a bit. So now credentials are good, unless they are mine!. I stated my affiliation with SAMS and ABYC as I thought it may have some bearing on the question I asked. As I am always cautious to answer a question when all the facts are not presented, making the answer perhaps different. At no time is impressing people the intention(still don't think he is following the conversation).

Since this is now a credentials thread....I feel credentials are very important. It shows that one is serious enough in their field to invest time and money to achieve and maintain these. I guess it is like a business license and insurance(that should start a whole separate debate). Yes it doesn't necessarily show experience.

Interesting example. In my ABYC corrosion cert class there were several techs there for the 2nd and 3rd time, as they could not pass the test. Side note - I know some people just don't test well. One of them has been doing corrosion surveys for years. I can tell you he was clueless by the questions in class. The ABYC cert program is very good, and you need a good amount of experience to keep up, learn the material and pass with the minimum 80 percent. They are also now implementing experience requirements for new and renewal of certs. Yes I am sure someone will site the USCG master license again, as it is easily fudged by some. But it is a start. Just like the certs themselves.

Both is the answer, but everyone has to be new to something at some point.
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Old 09-29-2016, 10:48 AM   #89
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Think I'm a gonna sue the Catholic church!

Pick a reason... it's all open to litigation.

They been a tellen me [us] fer years that I'm [we're] born a sinner.

Torment and worry it's created probably shortened untold numbers of persons' lives an undeterminable number of years.

Heck, this could become a worldwide class-action suit.

The Pope [King] has no cloths!

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Old 09-29-2016, 12:52 PM   #90
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Wrong. And you're not impressing anyone coming onto a forum and calling contributors "Clueless" and trying to scare people with 'sea lawyer' comments. And then standing on credentials as your justification.

It's one thing for class society to make uniform build and construction requirements.

It's another to state that private vessel owners are incapable of doing repairs. Or that owners should be held liable for giving advice to others. It's advice. It's free. It's their choice.

The other comment about auto service advisors rings true.
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Old 09-29-2016, 01:05 PM   #91
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So long as you receive no compensation for your "advise", unless you go out of your way maliciously and intent to cause harm can be proven, no way do I see advise freely offered to be "actionable".

As for clueless advise, we all know there are plenty of that online and I think you as a professional are thinking of the same reasons why most of us in the industry stay away from these forums. Not only the liability aspect of it, but also how well intended posts can be deformed.....
I used to offer a lot of advise online all over the place for the last 2 decades, but then got a very bad taste in the mouth about it when the clueless ones chime in with their opinions on what they did not get in the post. For me, it took a while to learn that...
The same reason why so many businesses in smaller communities stay away from social media - clueless little people feeling big, with punching fingers on a PC, can cause a lot of harm to a business in a small town or online for that matter!
So, now, I have learned to enjoy these forums for fun of some topics but to stay away from getting involved in anything technical or dealing with any aspect of the marine industry as a whole.
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Old 09-29-2016, 01:16 PM   #92
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What is TOS... sorry....
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Old 09-29-2016, 01:19 PM   #93
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"It's funny how people without credentials always want to argue about the worthlessness of credentials. You go ahead and hire a burger tosser if it makes you happy. Just don't complain when it bites you in the a.."
Could not have said it better myself!
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Old 09-29-2016, 01:37 PM   #94
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OK, I'm back. Wow we have come around quite a bit. So now credentials are good, unless they are mine!.

Huh? What have your credentials got to do with anything?



For my part, I've been trying to walk an almost neutral line between credentials are useful... or not. Neither good nor bad, by themselves. I think situation dependent. Person/personality dependent. Issue-at-hand dependent.

And an OK starting place, if there's no better alternative known to be available.

Some with credentials are likely experts. Some, not so much.

Some without credentials are likely experts. Some (probably many more), not so much.

Depends.

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Old 09-29-2016, 01:51 PM   #95
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Same in all professions.

You can go to a Doc that graduated at the bottom of the class.
or
You can go to a Doc that never bothered to go med school.

I know where I start to look.
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Old 09-29-2016, 01:57 PM   #96
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What is TOS... sorry....
http://www.trawlerforum.com/forums/m...twork&page=tos

http://www.trawlerforum.com/forums/m...ork&page=rules

Both located at the bottom of every page.
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Old 09-29-2016, 02:49 PM   #97
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Taking the view of someone hiring or engaging people to do work for me. I will not consider those without the basic credentials in their field. It can be a certification from Cummins or a license or a degree. It varies by field. Then I look for the best among those who do have the credentials.

So, do I ever make exceptions. Yes. Some very standard wording we use to include in job requirements in cases where there was no legal requirement. X Degree or Equivalent in experience. Y license or equivalent.

Now, i'm not going to run and hire the first captain with a 100 Ton Master, but I'm not going to hire someone to be a captain who has no license. I'm also not going to hire the person who has been running boats for 20 years but only has a 6-Pack. Typically for a captain position I'd expect someone who has years of experience to have more than a 100 Ton Master. However, I know a 100 Ton Master who chose to run smaller boats and has 100 Ton because he's never gotten the Sea Time on larger, but knows as much about small boats as anyone you'd see. I know captains who never leave US waters and have no plans to so aren't getting a STCW endorsement.

If it's required by law I'll require the credential. If not required by law, I'll still look for it and want it, but might make an exception in rare cases.
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Old 09-30-2016, 06:05 AM   #98
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I think you might reconsider your bedside manner. Tooting your horn to an audience which you label a portion as clueless idiots and including a link to your web site where you are shilling for donations is pretty poor form.

Credentials are great but they are not a club to get your way. If you have something important to say take your time and explain it well and provide references from your experience to reinforce your position. With experience comes understanding. Helping folks to reach understanding without having to suffer the experience can take a little time.

Forums are a great place to learn, share and practice communicating with people constructively. There is a lot of understanding in a place like this to be had. I come to be schooled frequently. Invaluable...

Quote:
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Just wondering about the liability involved with giving "advice" online. Being a surveyor and ABYC certified master tech, I see way too many "contributors" without a clue. Wouldn't be hard to go back in the event of a loss and prove who the contributor was. Is there a blanket disclaimer when you join these forums stating such? I just get tired of arguing with clueless idiots, and give up.

Unfortunately most people looking for advice do so because they are trying to save a buck, and the cheapest/easiest suggestions always seem to be taken.
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Old 09-30-2016, 06:22 AM   #99
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I look at forums as a place to get info that is valuable that is almost impossible to find in books.

Most people know they can go buy a book or hire a pro....but knowing that there are perfectly suitable alternatives to that one person's view can be invaluable.
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Old 09-30-2016, 06:49 AM   #100
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I look at forums as a place to get info that is valuable that is almost impossible to find in books.

Most people know they can go buy a book or hire a pro....but knowing that there are perfectly suitable alternatives to that one person's view can be invaluable.

Actually this forum in particular is amazing because a certain segment of society (trawler owners) inhabit this forum. Chances are you can talk directly a person who either has or had the exact same model boat you have or are interested in. Or has done exactly what you are trying to accomplish.

That is allowing for the 'clueless ones' who do google searches and post their results here. That's a funny comment. Almost all of the posts on this forum are (IMHO) a direct result of personal experience. One wonders where the original idea for that came from? I'm guessing a bad week of business perhaps?
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