Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 11-05-2019, 01:45 PM   #1
Newbie
 
City: Randburg
Country: South Africa
Join Date: Nov 2019
Posts: 2
Ford Lehmann 6 cilinder Engine Problems

Good day all,
I am a new member and trying to find my way around the Trawlers Forum.
I have a boat in Greece and have only been able to get to it for a few weeks each year.
Recently I have had difficulty starting the engine and the engine seems locked with only about 1/3 of a revolution allowable movement in turning the engine with a large shifting spanner on the crankshaft pulley nut.
I have spent days dismantling all the items I think may be the cause of this.
Started by removing all the injectors to see if there is water trapped above one of the pistons,
All pistons move up and down and seem OK.
The camshaft turns and lifts the valves on all cylinders.
Removed the starter motor-no problem there.Ring gear still bright and shiny and stater motor free to turn.
Took off the round timing inspection plate and all the gears are meshing and seem happy.
Took off the cover of the sea water pump which is also driven by the timing gears and all seems good.
The only thing left is the injector pump which I have never checked for lubrication as I was told this is lubricated by the engine oil.
The metalic clicking noise which is audible when I turn the engine back and forth in the limited radius before dead stops seems to be coming from the front of the engine.
All that is left is to remove the injector pump.

I am getting to the end of my tether.
The boat is moored in a remote part of Greece with little help around.
I would really appreciate some comments
I am quite happy to Whatsup a video of me turning the engine to anyone who might be able to suggest anything.
Regards,
Tim
__________________
Advertisement

timm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-05-2019, 01:56 PM   #2
Veteran Member
 
warfdog's Avatar
 
City: San Francisco CA
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Voyager
Vessel Model: Universal 39' Europa Trawler
Join Date: May 2018
Posts: 39
Damper Plate maybe...search forums for this, sometimes mis-spelled dampner.
__________________

warfdog is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-05-2019, 02:11 PM   #3
Senior Member
 
Martin J's Avatar
 
City: Mt Crested Butte
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Artemis
Vessel Model: Cheoy Lee 67
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 360
The oil is separate in the injection pump and changed every 50 hrs. Are you sure you have all clean battery contacts etc? Can you turn it over when the injectors are out> that should be reasonably easy. Put a discharge battery on the battery terminals before trying to start and make sure you have no volt drop. Have you bled the fuel, are the filters blocked? How long since last run? Have you checked to see if the propshaft is turning at the same time as your trying to turn it, is the boat out of gear?
Martin J is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-05-2019, 02:29 PM   #4
Member
 
City: Long Beach
Country: USA
Join Date: Dec 2018
Posts: 22
Quote:
Originally Posted by timm View Post
Good day all,
I am a new member and trying to find my way around the Trawlers Forum.
I have a boat in Greece and have only been able to get to it for a few weeks each year.
Recently I have had difficulty starting the engine and the engine seems locked with only about 1/3 of a revolution allowable movement in turning the engine with a large shifting spanner on the crankshaft pulley nut.
I have spent days dismantling all the items I think may be the cause of this.
Started by removing all the injectors to see if there is water trapped above one of the pistons,
All pistons move up and down and seem OK.
The camshaft turns and lifts the valves on all cylinders.
Removed the starter motor-no problem there.Ring gear still bright and shiny and stater motor free to turn.
Took off the round timing inspection plate and all the gears are meshing and seem happy.
Took off the cover of the sea water pump which is also driven by the timing gears and all seems good.
The only thing left is the injector pump which I have never checked for lubrication as I was told this is lubricated by the engine oil.
The metalic clicking noise which is audible when I turn the engine back and forth in the limited radius before dead stops seems to be coming from the front of the engine.
All that is left is to remove the injector pump.

I am getting to the end of my tether.
The boat is moored in a remote part of Greece with little help around.
I would really appreciate some comments
I am quite happy to Whatsup a video of me turning the engine to anyone who might be able to suggest anything.
Regards,
Tim
I believe you are saying the that the engine will not do a complete cycle with a wrench on the crankshaft nut? If thatís the case I believe you are looking for the mechanical cause of an engine that will not turn.
__________________
Jim Nance
T210DRVR is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 11-05-2019, 02:34 PM   #5
Newbie
 
City: Randburg
Country: South Africa
Join Date: Nov 2019
Posts: 2
Thank you Martin and Warfdog.
There are no oil level plugs or oil drain plugs on the pump.
I have compared the pump to other photos.
I thought the reason for this is what I was told.
Perhaps the pump is damaged from lack of lubrication if this is not so-but why no oil level plugs or oil drain plugs?Have looked very carefully for these and they do not exist.
It is not the battery-something is jamming the engine and if I try to turn it with the starter motor I feel I will do some more damage.
Perhaps there is something broken in the gearbox which is in neutral.
Will put it in gear and see if the propshaft moves when I move the engine by hand between the limited movement of about a third of a rev before it stops.
Many thanks for your kind comments.
Will try all you guys suggest.
Best regards,
Tim
timm is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-05-2019, 02:39 PM   #6
Guru
 
Comodave's Avatar
 
City: Au Gres, MI
Country: US
Vessel Name: Never Say Never
Vessel Model: President 41 DC
Join Date: Jul 2015
Posts: 5,770
The 120 hp engine has oil in the injector pump that needs to be changed every 50 to 100 hours. The 135, 225 and 275 hp do not have separate oil from the engine oil and do not need to be changed separate from the engine oil. I would check the damper plate. You have to slide the transmission back from the engine. Most have springs that can break and get stuck and stop the engine from turning.
__________________
Boat Nut:
If you are one there is no explanation necessary.
If you arenít one, there is no explanation possible.
Comodave is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 11-05-2019, 02:51 PM   #7
Veteran Member
 
warfdog's Avatar
 
City: San Francisco CA
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Voyager
Vessel Model: Universal 39' Europa Trawler
Join Date: May 2018
Posts: 39
Quote:
Originally Posted by Comodave View Post
The 120 hp engine has oil in the injector pump that needs to be changed every 50 to 100 hours. The 135, 225 and 275 hp do not have separate oil from the engine oil and do not need to be changed separate from the engine oil. I would check the damper plate. You have to slide the transmission back from the engine. Most have springs that can break and get stuck and stop the engine from turning.


This!
warfdog is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-05-2019, 02:59 PM   #8
Senior Member
 
Pete Meisinger's Avatar
 
City: Marinette, WI
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Best Alternative
Vessel Model: 36 Albin Aft Cabin
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 206
Do Not pull the injector pump. It's a PIA and is not your problem. In spite of you saying the noise seems to be coming from the front of the engine it is almost certainly the damper plate which is between the engine and tranny. If you have pulled all the things you mentioned, the damper plate should be about an hour job for you.

pete
Pete Meisinger is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-05-2019, 03:43 PM   #9
Guru
 
djmarchand's Avatar
 
City: Litchfield, Ct/Punta Gorda, Fl
Country: USA
Vessel Model: Atlas Pompano 23
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 4,836
I agree, probably the damper plate although the noise at the front of the engine doesn't fit. Look at this recent thread with pics of a failed damper plate and its replacement- Damper gone bad


You might want to listen at the bell housing as you rotate the engine back and forth to see if that is where the noise is really coming from.


David
djmarchand is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 11-05-2019, 03:50 PM   #10
Senior Member
 
Soo-Valley's Avatar
 
City: Gulf Islands
Country: canada
Vessel Name: Soo Valley
Vessel Model: Grand Banks 36
Join Date: Jul 2019
Posts: 179
This is what my damper looked like. It is bolted to the flywheel under the bell housing at the rear. You need to remove the transmission first to replace it.
The missing springs were jammed between the housing and the flywheel.

Click image for larger version

Name:	20191015_115142.jpg
Views:	52
Size:	149.5 KB
ID:	96102
Soo-Valley is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-05-2019, 03:53 PM   #11
Senior Member
 
Soo-Valley's Avatar
 
City: Gulf Islands
Country: canada
Vessel Name: Soo Valley
Vessel Model: Grand Banks 36
Join Date: Jul 2019
Posts: 179
here is the new one installed

Click image for larger version

Name:	20191027_130531.jpg
Views:	61
Size:	100.3 KB
ID:	96103
Soo-Valley is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-05-2019, 04:27 PM   #12
Guru
 
Lepke's Avatar
 
City: Between Oregon and Alaska
Country: US
Vessel Name: Charlie Harper
Vessel Model: Wheeler Shipyard 83'
Join Date: Jun 2016
Posts: 1,606
Don't take the injector pump out until you understand how to time it.
Lepke is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-05-2019, 05:44 PM   #13
Guru
 
Ski in NC's Avatar
 
City: Wilmington, NC
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Louisa
Vessel Model: Custom Built 38
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 5,355
Can be a bunch of things.

Does it feel like it turns well and then it hits a hard stop? Or does it just get tighter and tighter as it approaches the stop? Corroded cylinder will feel like a gradual stop.

Make a sharpie mark on damper and see if it hits the stop in exactly the same place. Busted damper will probably stop engine in a different place each time.

Any stuck valves?

Inj pump can stick from sitting, but usually not enough to jam the engine.
Ski in NC is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-05-2019, 06:03 PM   #14
Senior Member
 
Soo-Valley's Avatar
 
City: Gulf Islands
Country: canada
Vessel Name: Soo Valley
Vessel Model: Grand Banks 36
Join Date: Jul 2019
Posts: 179
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ski in NC View Post
Can be a bunch of things.

Does it feel like it turns well and then it hits a hard stop? Or does it just get tighter and tighter as it approaches the stop? Corroded cylinder will feel like a gradual stop.

Make a sharpie mark on damper and see if it hits the stop in exactly the same place. Busted damper will probably stop engine in a different place each time.

Any stuck valves?

Inj pump can stick from sitting, but usually not enough to jam the engine.
Bolded, are you saying put a sharpie mark on the pulley damper at the front of the engine, please say so. The transmission damper cannot be seen until tranny removal, by then you know if it is the culprit.
Soo-Valley is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-05-2019, 06:09 PM   #15
Guru
 
Ski in NC's Avatar
 
City: Wilmington, NC
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Louisa
Vessel Model: Custom Built 38
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 5,355
Torsional damper on the front of the engine. Where the belts are.
Ski in NC is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-05-2019, 08:37 PM   #16
Senior Member
 
City: Montgomery, Tx
Country: Montgomery, Tx
Vessel Name: Choices
Vessel Model: 36 Grand Banks Europa
Join Date: Apr 2018
Posts: 158
On a 135, pulling tranny is easy couple hour job. 135s have rear motor mounts so trans should be hanging of bell housing.

A damper plate acts like a busted crank or thrown rod, once it locks up. $150 fix!
__________________
36 Grand Banks Europa
Montgomery, TX
Blog: "grandbankschoices"
Choices is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-05-2019, 08:39 PM   #17
Senior Member
 
City: Montgomery, Tx
Country: Montgomery, Tx
Vessel Name: Choices
Vessel Model: 36 Grand Banks Europa
Join Date: Apr 2018
Posts: 158
Check my blog, grandbankschoices, I show how to do it in two hours.
__________________
36 Grand Banks Europa
Montgomery, TX
Blog: "grandbankschoices"
Choices is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-05-2019, 10:16 PM   #18
Guru
 
City: Boston
Country: US
Vessel Name: Adelante
Vessel Model: IG 30
Join Date: Nov 2016
Posts: 645
Could be a number of things. If the boat is sitting for months without being run it is possible the rings have rusted to the cylinder walls creating a high spot. If you pull the injectors, pour some light weight oil into the cylinders and then use a cheater bar on the spanner. Idea is not to use brute force, that could break a ring, but just keep bumping the spot where it won't move.

Damper plate is another possibility as others have mentioned. Unfortunately Lehman didn't design an inspection plate into their bell housing so you will have to remove the transmission to inspect it. A 2 hour job that can be done in the water but you need to rig up some type of moving hoist to remove/reinstall transmission. Aligning the input shaft of a 200+ lb transmission with the damper spline is easy with a chain or ratchet hoist hanging from a trolley.

If the boat was running well when you last left it then suspect rust. Injector pump and raw water pump run from gears but I would pull the raw water pump first. Remove the front plate that gives you a good view of the various gears and you can then poke around with a borescope.

Bring a compete gasket set with you. If you can get engine
SoWhat is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-09-2019, 10:31 AM   #19
Senior Member
 
Pete Meisinger's Avatar
 
City: Marinette, WI
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Best Alternative
Vessel Model: 36 Albin Aft Cabin
Join Date: Oct 2012
Posts: 206
I forgot to add in my earlier post about "It's not the injector pump".

Your starter motor has enough power to literally "shred" the injector pump. There is no way anything wrong with the injector pump could freeze the engine. The starter can strip every gear in the pump from the big one in front to everything inside. Trust me, I know on this one.

It's not anything to do with the pump, don't remove it! You will have at least a six hour job (R&R) and it will not change anything.

pete
Pete Meisinger is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11-09-2019, 01:39 PM   #20
Guru
 
ben2go's Avatar
 
City: Upstate,SC
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Caroliner
Vessel Model: Selway-Fisher 45' Teign
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 2,553
Quote:
Originally Posted by Pete Meisinger View Post
I forgot to add in my earlier post about "It's not the injector pump".

Your starter motor has enough power to literally "shred" the injector pump. There is no way anything wrong with the injector pump could freeze the engine. The starter can strip every gear in the pump from the big one in front to everything inside. Trust me, I know on this one.

It's not anything to do with the pump, don't remove it! You will have at least a six hour job (R&R) and it will not change anything.

pete
I think there is a pin or key locking the gear on the IP. I think that would break long before the IP went to crap, at least I would hope so. Those things are expensive once the internals are shredded.
__________________

__________________
What a pain in the transom.

ben2go is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off





All times are GMT -5. The time now is 06:06 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0
Copyright 2006 - 2012
×