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Old 02-10-2012, 02:28 PM   #1
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Floor problem - Any idea?

Here's the situation. I'm in the process of replacing my floor in my Marine Trader. The parquet is in bad shape and the plywood underneath is soft in some places.

When I bought the boat, the PO had modified the trap above the engine (Flord Lehman 120) because the trap was resting on the expansion tank (picture 1). I figured it was because the floor was sagging a bit so I went and got some jackposts and raised the beams underneath until they were straight again.

But even now that the beams are straight the trap is sill resting on the expansion tank. The trap is still about 1 1/4 inch too high. I'm going to put a 3/4 plywood before laying the new floor but there is no way I can compensate that much. Any idea?
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Old 02-10-2012, 02:44 PM   #2
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Floor problem - Any idea?

Quote:
Fotoman wrote:
Here's the situation. I'm in the process of replacing my floor in my Marine Trader. The parquet is in bad shape and the plywood underneath is soft in some places.

When I bought the boat, the PO had modified the trap above the engine (Flord Lehman 120) because the trap was resting on the expansion tank (picture 1). I figured it was because the floor was sagging a bit so I went and got some jackposts and raised the beams underneath until they were straight again.

But even now that the beams are straight the trap is sill resting on the expansion tank. The trap is still about 1 1/4 inch too high. I'm going to put a 3/4 plywood before laying the new floor but there is no way I can compensate that much. Any idea?
Original engine??* Motor mounts??*


-- Edited by JD on Monday 13th of February 2012 01:14:09 PM
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Old 02-10-2012, 02:54 PM   #3
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RE: Floor problem - Any idea?

From the pic it doesn't look like any of that is new.

Perhaps you could router out the space for the expansion tank.

make the sole Thinner over the tank.

Or cut a hole and cover it with carpet. Short of lowering the engine or raising the entire sole.

That is a tough one.

I kind of fall back to JD question.

Re fit's can require extensive modifications

SD*
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Old 02-10-2012, 03:07 PM   #4
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Floor problem - Any idea?

Original engine, yes. I want to avois having a raised section above the expansion tank. Looks so bad. Maybe I'll have a look at the engine mounts.

Not a bad idea skiperdude but I already made it thinner above the tank. Can't make it much thinner without compromising the entire panel.

-- Edited by Fotoman on Friday 10th of February 2012 04:09:24 PM
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Old 02-10-2012, 03:18 PM   #5
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RE: Floor problem - Any idea?

I can't imagine that it left the factory that way. So with that said, here is what I found when I removed the fuel tanks for replacement, the ends of the floor beams were rotten and the whole house had settled but not to the point that it appears yours has. See if you can look over the top of your fuel tank and look at the point where the beams rest on the ledger to determine if they are still in good shape. Harbor Freight sells an inexspenive bore scope that will reach in about 3 feet.
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Old 02-10-2012, 03:44 PM   #6
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Floor problem - Any idea?

*

The floor did not settle because you can see by the cabinet door clearance, so it appears the engine height for some reason was raised?* The easiest would to increase the height/level of the floor to match the hatch height since you are replacing the floor anyway.


-- Edited by Phil Fill on Friday 10th of February 2012 04:45:18 PM
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Old 02-10-2012, 04:18 PM   #7
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RE: Floor problem - Any idea?

Is there any way to relocate the expansion tank?
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Old 02-10-2012, 04:52 PM   #8
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RE: Floor problem - Any idea?

Quote:
Phil Fill wrote:
*

The floor did not settle because you can see by the cabinet door clearance, so it appears the engine height for some reason was raised?* The easiest would to increase the height/level of the floor to match the hatch height since you are replacing the floor anyway.



-- Edited by Phil Fill on Friday 10th of February 2012 04:45:18 PM
*Are you sure the cabinets did not settle with the floor?* See the post above about beam ends on the ledger.

It appears to me that the besto solution is to move the expansion tank to somewhere that you could access it by removing an access plate rather than the entire hatch?
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Old 02-10-2012, 05:22 PM   #9
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RE: Floor problem - Any idea?

I will check about the beam ledgers for sure. That's what makes the most sense. Should be pretty easy since I removed the old fuel tanks last year so access is pretty easy.

Does anyone know if it's possible to relocate the expansion tank on a FL 120?
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Old 02-10-2012, 05:53 PM   #10
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RE: Floor problem - Any idea?

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Willy wrote:
I think Marin used undersized mounts for this reason. GB 36 did not have the room for the correct size and they built designed the boat around the undersized motor mounts? So he stayed with the original system.
*Correct.* But only in the GB36 twin.* The single has plenty of room above the expansion tank.* However I don't know if the factory used the next size up mounts on their single GB36s or not.

The only solution I see from your photos is what others have already mentioned--- some sort of routed out recess on the underside of your engine hatch to accomodate the expansion tank.*

Even if you wanted to go to the expense and hassle of changing the engine mounts, the next size down from the "correct" mounts is not that much shorter.* And then you get to play with the issue of realigning the engine and shaft.

I assume your installation is a factory installation.* If so, how did Marine Trader deal with it originally?** Is there an MT owners forum you can ask*or other identical boats in your area that you can compare to?
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Old 02-10-2012, 05:57 PM   #11
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RE: Floor problem - Any idea?

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Does anyone know if it's possible to relocate the expansion tank on a FL 120?
*The person who can answer that is Bob Smith at American Diesel.* He did much of the orgiginal marinization work for Lehman way back when and he and his son Brian probably know more about the Lehman than any other folks around.

However, while anything is possible if you throw enough money at it, the expansion tank in its current position would be a challenge to move.* It is bolted to the thermostat housing underneath it, so moving the tank would require fabricating some sort of connection to the now-exposed and open thermostat housing.* I suspect making some sort of accomodation in the hatch for the tank would prove to be a far, far more practical solution than moving the tank.

But talk to the Smiths at American Diesel.* They can tell you exactly what's possible and what isn't on that engine.
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Old 02-10-2012, 08:06 PM   #12
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RE: Floor problem - Any idea?

Unless it is "hard plumbed" there should be no reason not to. the expansion tank on your vehicle is remotely mounted. Just needs to be the highest point in the system.
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Old 02-10-2012, 08:08 PM   #13
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RE: Floor problem - Any idea?

oops typing while others with more knowledge were also . . . .
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Old 02-11-2012, 07:46 AM   #14
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RE: Floor problem - Any idea?

Marin is right. Bob Smith is an encyclopedia of information on those installations. No doubt, he knows of a part # to use for remote mounting of the tank. He was bound to have installed that engine in something that had that clearance problem. Don't be surprised if he remembers the boat, the engine, and even the part number.
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Old 02-11-2012, 07:59 AM   #15
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RE: Floor problem - Any idea?

It seems to me the expansion tank and heat exchanger take the place of a radiator. It is mounted where the thermostat and upper radiator hose would have been- were it a tractor application. So if you were to locate/ purchase the original thermostat housing and mount it where the original was, purchase a second one to bolt to the bottom of the expansion tank (the bolt pattern would match) and then relocate the tank to the side, keeping it as the highest point of the cooling system (as was mentioned) , you would have the cure. You would run a coolant hose from the new "thermostat housing" to the bottom of the E tank, and the remaining E tank hoses would be replaced with longer ones that connected in the same place as the original ones. Am I missing anything here?
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Old 02-11-2012, 08:38 AM   #16
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Floor problem - Any idea?

You could cut the tank in "half" making it shorter, then remove the sides of the upper part, then weld that top back on. That would give you a smaller but shorter tank with out spending very much. That is just a welding job.

*

Then you would need a coolant overflow/recovery tank. You might already have one as that is one of the Bob Smith "upgrades". Most of the trawlers I have seen with Lehman 120s have added the recovery tank.

OR you could remove the tank, cut off the connecting piece that bolts to the engine, and have a new shorter but wider tank made to keep the same volume. This would not be very expensive either.

There's two possible solutions.


-- Edited by jleonard on Saturday 11th of February 2012 09:39:05 AM
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Old 02-11-2012, 08:55 AM   #17
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Floor problem - Any idea?

Well this morning the dog got me up at 4:30 to go outside and pee*and when I got back*into bed the only thing I could think about was your problem.* Don't know why.

Like a lot of times it seems to me that*folks*jump to conclusions and fixes that may in fact work but do not address the real problem.* Happens all of the time when someone has an engine problem.

First off the boat did not leave the factory with that engine sticking through the floor hatch like that.* Everyone agrees?* So the answer to the problem is how did it get that way.* If we think about it, as I did for a couple of hours this morning, there are a couple of things that can be checked fairly easily.* For starters either the floor is falling through the engine compartment or the hull is coming up to meet the floor both of*which I guess*are possible but highly un likely because from the pictures*something has*moved 2"s or so.* But this can be verified I would think.* Just measure the number of inches from under the floor to the hull at several points.* I would start at the front of the engine*with either side of the tank in question down to the bilge bottom.* Then half way back on either side and then again matching the front measurements on the aft edge.* Now get someone with a Marine Trader like yours to do the same thing and then compare the measurements.* My guess is that the floor isn't falling into the bilge, because if it was there would be other problems like doors won't open or close, especially if it fell 2"'s.

Now go into the bilge and get a measurement on the engine from the top of the tank to the bottom of the oil pan.*It would be interesting to know how much room there is between the oil pan and the hull. *My guess is that that engine is setting four or five inches off of the hull when it probably should be maybe an inch or so off of the hull.*
So let us say for argument sake*that the distance between the bottom of the floor and the bilge bottom is 42"s.* And the total height of the engine at the highest point is 36"s.*That is a 6" difference* so if you lower the engine to with in 2" off the bilge that will give you near 4" up top.* My guess is that*some one has changed the mounts or the support brackets for the mounts with out regard to how the hatch fits.* Why?* Who knows, either that is what was available or they wanted to be able to drain the oil out of the engine by way of a plug on the bottom or some other strange reason.* The engine needs at least* 2"clearance*between the radiator cap*on the tank and the bottom of the closed hatch*at the top so that it has room for movement as it is put under torque.
Moving the engine is easier than reflooring the whole salon.* Besides if*the engine*is up to high that affects the*alignment with the stuffing box and that*can't be correct.
The question that comes to mind is how the hell did this get past the survey?**None the less*no matter what the problem is I would fix it correctly because anything else you do may not get past the next buyer or survey.
Good luck and let us know what you find out.


*


*


-- Edited by JD on Monday 13th of February 2012 01:14:58 PM
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Old 02-11-2012, 09:44 AM   #18
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Floor problem - Any idea?

Agree with JD's sleepless thoughts...

Been rebuilding boats recreationally for*45 years and professionally for 12.* Can't believe how many "non-fixes" I've had to redo.* Not that all of mine are perfect...but most can be lived with.* The pic of that floor has me completely clueless as to why it was done and how it stayed that way.

I'd have to see the boat...everything I can think of...as many others have stated are not*fixes , they are patches....I'd have to see a lot more before I would even recommend something because anything else so far is just a guess.


-- Edited by psneeld on Saturday 11th of February 2012 10:45:07 AM
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Old 02-11-2012, 09:46 AM   #19
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Floor problem - Any idea?

Quote:
jleonard wrote:
You could cut the tank in "half" making it shorter, then remove the sides of the upper part, then weld that top back on. That would give you a smaller but shorter tank with out spending very much. That is just a welding job.
*Not a good idea at all.* The tank's height and the coolant level in it is critical to maintaining the correct level of coolant in the Lehman cooled exaust manifold.* Any expansion tank, remote or otherwise, needs to maintain this height relationship between the coolant level in the tank and the position of the exhaust manifold.* If the tank is too low, or if the level of coolant in the tank is too low, an air pocket will form in the cooling passsages at the front of the exhaust manifold.* This part of the manifold will then get extremely hot and severe internal damage will occur..* As these Lehman manifolds have become almost impossible to get anymore, ruining one could conceivably mean a re-power would be necessary.

This is a case where any suggestions from an internet forum should be ignored and the owner should go directly to the Smiths at American Diesel.* The surest way to kill a Lehman 120 is to ovreheat it, even a bit, and the potential for screwing up the cooling system by shade-tree solutions to the cooling system is too great in my mind to warrant home made remedies, however logical they may seem.* Call the Smiths. 804-435-3107.

PS--- I should have said "any suggestions from an internet forum regarding modification of the cooling system."* The ideas from JD and Scott regarding the engine's physical installation are worth heeding in my opinion.


-- Edited by Marin on Saturday 11th of February 2012 10:50:03 AM
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Old 02-11-2012, 10:04 AM   #20
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RE: Floor problem - Any idea?

Quote:
Old Stone wrote:
Run a string one side of the ledgers to the other as suggested. Definately not a factory install, but if you were to mess with the the engine mounts, you may have some alignment problems with the shaft. How about an inspection plate right above the cap? Very thin and strong. Maybe 6" diameter. Any flex in the floors now?
Carl,

An inspection plate is just another patch and is not fixing the real problem.*

I agree that the alignment is important but the tail shaft might not be at the wrong height.* Maybe just the front of the engine is jacked up. We will not know until he does some measuring.
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