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Old 02-11-2012, 04:40 PM   #21
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RE: Floor problem - Any idea?

I have seen a different style expansion tank that was mounted along the of the engine with a pipe coming out of the end and going to the point where your tank is mounted. It was a
ford engine but I believe it was a Sabre conversion. What is of most importance is why is it like that and how do you fix the root cause, not how to work around it.
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Old 02-11-2012, 05:59 PM   #22
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RE: Floor problem - Any idea?

I am not saying this is likely but, is it possible that the engine was moved forward from its original position?* If so, it would have to move up if shaft alignment were held.
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Old 02-12-2012, 05:51 AM   #23
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RE: Floor problem - Any idea?

I am a glutton for carpentry projects and I think I would somehow move the face of the cabinet aft to include the expansion tank in the lower part of the cabinet.

Make the hatch shorter to compensate and put a false floor in the cabinet that could be lifted out to access the expension tank cap.

It is a lot of work but everything could be nice and level.

*

Of course if it is possible to move the engine aft and lower that works too, but that is a lot of work also.

Do you* like woodwork or engine work? Take your pick.

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Old 02-12-2012, 05:57 AM   #24
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Floor problem - Any idea?

Quote:
Fotoman wrote:
I will check about the beam ledgers for sure. That's what makes the most sense. Should be pretty easy since I removed the old fuel tanks last year so access is pretty easy.
**********Were the fuel tanks held in place by heavy wooden upright supports?* If these were removed and not replaced the floor beams could be now sagging.

**********Just a thought** JohnP


-- Edited by JohnP on Sunday 12th of February 2012 06:57:50 AM
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Old 02-12-2012, 06:16 AM   #25
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RE: Floor problem - Any idea?

Fotoman, my boat is basically the same as yours, only older, and without the hardtop flybridge extensions.* I have the same engine, and, as you can see from my pic, taken from virtually the same place and angle as yours, there is room for the expansion tank without dodgy excavation of the floor hatch.* In fact there is a couple of inches or more clearance.* Like others have said, I doubt the floor has shifted that much or everything would be visually out of line.* Therefore your engine must have been raised at some point.* I suspect someone just installed oversized engine mounts, as it is hard to imagine any other intervention requiring the engine to be moved forwards, however, if oversize mounts were installed, the front would have had to be raised to re-align the shaft, and that could well account for what has happened.* Taking out a section of the floor was a bit of a "Heath Robinson" way of fixing it, but if that is what has happened, and the engine and shaft are in alignment, then all is in working order, and you might be best to leave it that way.* If you are replacing the floor, then some creative carpentry to accommodate the raised tank might be in order, as I agree with Marin and others who have counselled against moving or altering the tank, and my inclination would be a local fix, rather than raising the whole floor - a major issue, which would affect all the cabinetry and headroom as well.
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Old 02-12-2012, 08:01 AM   #26
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RE: Floor problem - Any idea?

Amazin'. I never cease to wonder how and why stuff like this seem to occur on our boats. I've had my old trawler about 6 years now, and continue to uncover "Why the #@$% did somebody do that?" situations.

*

I guess it's all p[art of the fun and romance of collecting these antiques.
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Old 02-12-2012, 09:12 AM   #27
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RE: Floor problem - Any idea?

A lot of comments/suggestions. I will spend some time this week to investigate more in light of what some of you have said. Maybe the engine was moved forward (therefore raised to keep the alignement) to accomodate a new transmission at some point? This would be the most logical explanation for the engine to be that high. Anyway, I will post my progress. Thanks for your help.
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Old 02-12-2012, 09:12 AM   #28
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RE: Floor problem - Any idea?

Quote:
JohnP wrote:Of course if it is possible to move the engine aft and lower that works too, but that is a lot of work also.
Do you* like woodwork or engine work? Take your pick.

JohnP
*Lowering the engine to it's correct height will fix the problem and that can be done in one day unless someone has done something really dumb and that could be the case.* If lowered as was the original design then there is no need to move it back.

None of the woodworking projects are one day jobs and any one of them will could effect the next survey to sell the boat.

I'm a little disappointed that we haven't heard back from the owner as to what the measurements are under the engine and what was put under it to merit this height change.
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Old 02-12-2012, 09:20 AM   #29
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RE: Floor problem - Any idea?

Quote:
Fotoman wrote:A lot of comments/suggestions. I will spend some time this week to investigate more in light of what some of you have said. Maybe the engine was moved forward (therefore raised to keep the alignement) to accomodate a new transmission at some point? This would be the most logical explanation for the engine to be that high. Anyway, I will post my progress. Thanks for your help.
Sorry Eric I was posting at the same time you were.* I don't think a transmission change would be the cause of the height difference.* It could have been moved forward with out changing the height.*Besides it doesn't look like it has been moved forward but just up.*Also most of the time if the transmission has a longer tail shaft than the one that comes out the correct repair is to just shorten the prop shaft.* Well that is not 100% correct either, the correct repair is to fix the one that came out or replace it with one that fits.

Take some pictures when you get in there and let us know what you find.
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Old 02-12-2012, 04:45 PM   #30
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RE: Floor problem - Any idea?

You may be able to lower the engine using a flexable shaft coupling. I do not know how much miss alignment the flexable coupling can accomadate. Try and determine if the engine was moved forward, perhaps because a longer shaft was installed or to get a new purchase on the stringers due to failed mounting points or to install a generator behind the engine. My MT suffered from rot in the stringers, there isn't that much wood in there as mine had 3 inches of mahogany on top flanked by plywood on each side with 2 inches of mahogany on the bottom. If the engine was moved forward it would have been raised to maintain alignment with the shaft. With that said, can you move the engine to the rear, which will lower it. Imagine a line running through the center of the crankshaft, transmission and inline with the shaft. It will be approximately paralell to the exhaust manifold, you can see how the engine moving along this line will be lowered when moved to the rear and raised when moved to the front.
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Old 02-12-2012, 05:46 PM   #31
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Floor problem - Any idea?

Didn't have a chance to go to the boat yet (around 0 F this weekend) but I found a few pictures of my setup. There is a lot of room under the engine. We can see one of the front mounts. Don't know if these are bigger than usual.



-- Edited by Fotoman on Sunday 12th of February 2012 06:47:44 PM


-- Edited by Fotoman on Sunday 12th of February 2012 06:51:59 PM
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Old 02-12-2012, 05:46 PM   #32
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Floor problem - Any idea?

I would be surprised if the engine was moved around much since any change in elevation would put it out of alignment with the shaft, unless there is a flexible coupler between the transmission and the shaft which after seing your photos there does not appear to be.

One possibility has been mentioned by Eric himself and that is if the boat was given a different transmission at some point and this required raising the engine so the transmission would mate up properly with the prop shaft. On most boats the shaft is a fixed entity and it enters the engine room at the angle established by the boat's construction. The engine/transmission mounting has to accommodate the shaft, not the other way round.


-- Edited by Marin on Sunday 12th of February 2012 06:49:24 PM
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Old 02-12-2012, 05:56 PM   #33
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RE: Floor problem - Any idea?

Quote:
Marin wrote:
*

One possibility has been mentioned by Eric himself and that is if the boat was given a different transmission at some point and this required raising the engine so the transmission would mate up properly with the prop shaft. On most boats the shaft is a fixed entity and it enters the engine room at the angle established by the boat's construction. The engine/transmission mounting has to accommodate the shaft, not the other way round.
*A different transmission or even adding a longer reduction gear can cause the front of the engine to be a higher elevation. *It looked as if a reduction gear is on the rear of the transmission. *If a more compact reduction gear that will mate up can be found, it could be the easiest solution.
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Old 02-12-2012, 05:59 PM   #34
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RE: Floor problem - Any idea?

How about getting rid of the offending*item and go keel cooler.

Not hard to do. Just a thought.

SD
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Old 02-12-2012, 06:06 PM   #35
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RE: Floor problem - Any idea?

The header tank is part of the engine's coolant (antifreeze) system, not part of the raw water cooling system. It is not a heat exchanger, it is an expansion tank/reservoir for the coolant in the engine. If you keel-cooled the engine you'd still need the header tank.
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Old 02-12-2012, 07:06 PM   #36
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RE: Floor problem - Any idea?

Looking at the first pics in the most recent post, it looks like the engine mounts are located on those (new?) 6x6 (?) stringers, which are not glassed in and certainly do not appear to be "stock". Looks to me like the engine was pulled, stringers replaced or sistered in, with the result that the engine is sitting higher. This would've require some adjustment in the stern tube/prop shaft/cutless bearing alignment, but maybe once the engine was back in, they decided it was easier to realign aft than to pull the engine again. Just my guess. The right fix would probably be to re-mount the engine back a little lower, but $$$??? ... who knows what the owner's willing to live with.

Maybe with enough patience, you could gradually raise those house-leveling jacks (another creative solution I never saw) and put a little crown in the salon deck, enough to get the hatch to sit in there.
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Old 02-12-2012, 08:39 PM   #37
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RE: Floor problem - Any idea?

Is it just the camera angle or is the starboard mount adjusted higher than the port which is partially blocked from view.
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Old 02-12-2012, 08:50 PM   #38
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Floor problem - Any idea?

Quote:
ARoss wrote:


Maybe with enough patience, you could gradually raise those house-leveling jacks (another creative solution I never saw) and put a little crown in the salon deck, enough to get the hatch to sit in there.


*How about just raising the water line?

*

Really about the shortest transmission I have see is a Hurth. *Even with a reduction gear they are shorter than average. *If it would mate up, it could work to lover the engine.


-- Edited by Moonstruck on Sunday 12th of February 2012 09:53:20 PM
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Old 02-12-2012, 10:25 PM   #39
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RE: Floor problem - Any idea?

Why not just move the expansion tank? Location is not critical. I have two generators and mounted the expansion tanks outside the sound enclosures to they would be more accessible.
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Old 02-13-2012, 12:41 AM   #40
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Floor problem - Any idea?

The header tank on an FL120 is not the same as the expansion or recovery tank on a car (or the ones you are referring to on your engines and generator). There is a kit available from American Diesel that consists of an automotive-type recovery bottle and a new header tank neck and cap that turns the coolant system on an FL120 into an self-returning system like a car's. The plastic recovery tank in the kit can be remote mounted. The header tank on the front of the engine does not perform the same function and it cannot be remote mounted, or at least not with some significant custom machining and careful mounting if it can be done at all.

As I said earlier, the level of coolant in the header tank has a critical relationship to the level of coolant in the Lehman cooled exhaust manifold. The header tank on an FL120 is hard bolted to a mating face on the top of the thermostat housing. In this respect it is a built-in component of the engine's cooling system, not a simple plastic overflow tank that accepts excess coolant as it heats up and then has that excess pulled back into the engine as it cools down like the one on a car.

I have never heard of an instance where the header tank of an FL120 was removed, a coolant elbow machined to fit onto the machined face of the thermostat housing and connect to the remote-mounted tank, and the tank remounted with the proper hose connections and at the exact right height to maintain the proper level of coolant in the exhaust manifold.

The plastic expansion tank sold by AD is intended to be remote mounted, same as it is in a car. It is plumbed to the new overflow pipe that is part of the replacement neck for the engine's header tank. The pressure and expanded volume of coolant in the engine's coolant passages is forced out of the header tank--- same as it's forced out of the upper end of a car's radiator--- into the remote-mounted recovery tank. As the engine and coolant cools after the engine is shut off, the vacuum from the reducing coolant volume pulls the coolant from the recovery tank back into the header tank on the engine to maintain the correct coolant level in the same way the coolant is pulled back into the radiator of a vehicle.

While some people call the header tank on the FL120 an "expansion tank," it really isn't. It is the engine's coolant reservoir and as such retains the correct level of coolant necessary to ensure proper cooling of the exhaust manifold (as well as the rest of the engine).

If an FL120 is not fitted with an after-market coolant recovery kit, the expanding volume of coolant in the hot engine is simply blown out the overflow tube of the header tank into the bilge or engine pan. It is not recovered. Over time, if the coolant level in the header tanks is not renewed, the coolant level in the tank will drop to the point where an air pocket can form in the upper front end of the exhaust manifold. If the level in the header tank is low enough, the air pocket in the exhaust manifold will become trapped there and a severe hot spot will develop. This can eventually burn through the inside of the manifold and ruin it.

After learning all this from Bob Smith at American Diesel, I purchased a pair of their recovery tank kits. However, I have never gotten around to installing them. Instead, I use a "poor man's" recovery tank on each engine. I put a long hose on the overflow tube of each engine's header tank and led it down into an empty plastic bottle in the engine drip pan. I then periodically pour the coolant that gets blown out of the header tank into the bottle back into the tank.

Unfortunately, simply hooking a recovery tank to the stock header tank's overflow pipe will not result in the system drawing the coolant back into the tank because the stock tank cap doesn't allow this. This is why American Diesel's recovery bottle kit includes a new neck for the header tank and a different type of cap, both of which allow coolant to be pulled fairly quickly back into the engine as it cools, same as a car.

One of my pre-start checks on our boat when the engines are cold is to crack open the petcock on the top front of the exhaust manifold of each engine to ensure that coolant come out out. *This ensures that there is no air pocket in the manifold cooling passage. *I do this with the cap off the header tank. *Otherwise the seal of the cap on the tank will not allow the coolant to come up through the petcock and eliminate any air pocket that might be there.

And NEVER open that petcock when the engine is running or hot (that's out of the operator's manual).


-- Edited by Marin on Monday 13th of February 2012 01:49:58 AM
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