Flemings in the flesh

[Hawgwash]

Grand Yachts is hosting a bit of a Fleming fest in Sidney BC this weekend. There are about a dozen here now at Port Sidney Marina.

 

[ranger58sb]

We usually have about 20-30 of 'em in sight at our marina. The dealer is next door, and he also leases 13 slips at our place.


-Chris

 

[rochepoint]

Grand Yachts is hosting a bit of a Fleming fest in Sidney BC this weekend. There are about a dozen here now at Port Sidney Marina.

Rumour from our resident club Fleming owner says there should be 31 showing up, should up the property value at Port of Sidney.....

 

[Hawgwash]

Rumour from our resident club Fleming owner says there should be 31 showing up

Yes, I spoke with two arrivals today and they said "around 30". Both are/were 55 owners moving to 63s. Drool.

 

[sunchaser]

The first Nordhavn CP59 is hitting the US shores in a few weeks. Check it out on Nordhavn's website. Fleming should be worried with their now decades old designs and no ER to speak of in the 55. A side by side of the CP59 with the latest model, F58, will prove most interesting.

 

[CPseudonym]

I agree wholeheartedly sun and it's even more interesting considering the internet naysayers who where predicting a N flop. The YouTube video I was emailed a week or so ago showed a beautiful 20 knot boat. Once the new props are fitted.

 

[Moonstruck]

The first Nordhavn CP59 is hitting the US shores in a few weeks. Check it out on Nordhavn's website. Fleming should be worried with their now decades old designs and no ER to speak of in the 55. A side by side of the CP59 with the latest model, F58, will prove most interesting.

I find the arrangement of the 59CP galley/saloon area strange to say the least. Not nearly as comfortable seeming to me as the Fleming. Plus the Fleming has that wonderful pilothouse that is missing on the 59CP. Also the split aft deck lounge area and cockpit seems a little cut up. As is said, all boats are compromises. A stand up engine room is great, but maybe not a deal killer.

Edit: I do like the midship master stateroom of the 59CP. However, I like the arrangement for quick access to the staterooms on the Fleming. The Fleming also has the nice access from the pilothouse to the flying bridge. While we are on the bridge, the Fleming's bridge arrangement has it hands down.

I think that Nordhavn with do some tweeking on the floor plan, but how would they handle the pilot house problem?

 

[sunchaser]

I think that Nordhavn with do some tweeking on the floor plan, but how would they handle the pilot house problem?

They and many others do not view this as a problem. Think Europa design, new Selene model or flush deck Hatteras. Many of us own non pilot house boats and enjoy those specific benefits. Why I even know some who extol the virtues of a Sabre, I couldn't agree more. But, time will tell.

To me, the issue with the very nicely crafted Fleming 55 is it lacks decent machinery space. Nordhavn and before that DeFever raised that bar in recreational vessels. My DF 48 has so much better an ER and machinery design layouts than an F55, strange to say the least.

My other favorites in this regard are the OA 55s to 64s or Outer Reef 65. The CP 59 faces some stiff completion, but not from Fleming IMHO. You Don are in one of those great competitors.

 

[twistedtree]

To me, the issue with the very nicely crafted Fleming 55 is it lacks decent machinery space. Nordhavn and before that DeFever raised that bar in recreational vessels. My DF 48 has so much better an ER and machinery design layouts than an F55, strange to say the least.

How much of that do you think is attributable to the Fleming's planing hull vs the Nordhavn and Defever's displacement hulls? That's what I always though made the difference - basically the below waterline shape/depth that allows for more ER space. My Grand Banks, which was a newer model with planing hull, was similarly tight on ER space like the Fleming. Although it was very well laid out and everything was accessible, it was definitely a crawl space.

 

[Nomad Willy]

Are the beams similar on these boats?
I suspect the Fleming is considerably narrower. The size of a boat is mostly a product of it's height, beam and length.
Also comparing a high speed boat w slow boat is mostly nonsense anyway.

One thing that can be compared is appearance and the best looking Nordy is not nearly as good looking as the ugliest Fleming. Heavy on the bias? Yup but .....

 

[CPseudonym]

The Fleming and the Nordhavn CP59 are an apples to apples comparison IMO. They are both planing hulls.

 

[Tom.B]

Fleming is our "win-the-lottery" dream boat.

 

[BandB]

Fleming and Nordhavn don't appeal to the same customer. Once one finds out the key differences, they like one much better than the other. This isn't like deciding between American Tug and Nordic Tug. Nor is it even like deciding KK vs. Nordhavn, although they have major differences.

It doesn't mean one is better than the other, only different. The person who likes the high sides, is happy going 8 knots, and prefers Engine Room space over living space is always going to pick Nordhavn over Fleming. On the other hand, we strongly considered Fleming at one time in our searches and we would never consider Nordhavn. Not because it's not a good boat. Just doesn't appeal to us. On the other hand we have friends who are Nordhavn fanatics and we hope one of them in particular, a member here, gets the one of his dreams next. We also have looked at his preferences and how he'd outfit one and communicated back and forth. Perfect boat for him. I would never try to talk him into a Fleming.

 

[boatpoker]

CP59 ... what a curious (and I think unworkable) saloon/galley arrangement.
For that kind of money I'd like a settee that at least looks comfortable to sit on.

 

[sunchaser]

The person who likes the high sides, is happy going 8 knots, .

BB

You may want to look up the Nordhavn CP59 performance and specs and compare to say the newest and very nicely set up Fleming 58; that is my curiosity for purposes of this thread anyway.

 

[CPseudonym]

Compare also the new Hatteras 60

 

[BandB]

BB

You may want to look up the Nordhavn CP59 performance and specs and compare to say the newest and very nicely set up Fleming 58; that is my curiosity for purposes of this thread anyway.

Compare also the new Hatteras 60

First to the Hatteras. The Hatteras 60 will out perform the others by a mile. 32 knots WOT and 25+ cruising, but lacks range, even with the optional tanks. Even at 7 knots, the range is only 1,083 nm and at 1000 RPM, 10 knots, only 747 nm. So not in the discussion as a passagemaker. Having been on a Hatteras 60 and been very impressed overall, even if it had the range, I wouldn't want to cross the Atlantic with it. And the one thing that really turned me away is their lack of a lower helm. They did offer one but to my knowledge never actually built one in this model of 60 and while they would consider doing so, the windshield shape concerns me there.

Now as to the Nordhavn CP 59. My other comments were related to all other Nordhavn's. This boat I have a hard time thinking of as a Nordhavn. Not their first attempt at CP and the others failed and are gone.

You're right that performance of the CP 59 vs. the Fleming 58 is very comparable. The CP might even be faster. The CP 59 is actually a smaller boat than the Fleming 58. 71,000 lbs vs. 88,000. LOA 59' vs. 63' (or 66' with platform). Beam 17' vs. 17'6". Draft 4'2" vs. 5'. Fuel 1100 gallons vs. 1450.

I see them as very competitive boats. However, I see one as being within it's builders mainstream and the other as not. I know the CP 59 is rated category A, but I think of it as what they label it, a coastal cruiser. I don't see it appealing to a hardcore "Nordy." Now, which would I choose for passagemaking? Fleming 65. Oh, that wasn't a choice. Well, I would prefer it over the 58 for passagemaking, just as I'd see Nordhavn fans selecting a 63 or 68. However, if I was going to buy having never been on the CP 59, I'd choose the Fleming 58 for passagemaking. It's more a proven design. Perhaps if I actually tried a CP 59 in the ocean with rough seas, I'd change my mind. I also would be curious as to it's range. I haven't seen or found any review yet of the CP 59, so we're all shooting a bit in the dark.

I think the CP 59 is clearly an attempt to appeal to non Nordhavn fans. It just doesn't pull me in though. Perhaps standing alone as a Coastal boat it would, but it lacks to me the Nordhavn lustre. Yes, it makes up for the reasons I wouldn't normally be a Nordhavn fan, but it doesn't pull me in. It's a boat line of one boat. I don't see any traditional Nordhavn fan choosing it, and do believe if someone who really liked Nordhavn chose it, they'd be disappointed as it would be short in some of the areas they really like.

 

[CPseudonym]

So besides you, who said anything about "passage making"? Thought we where looking at roughly similar 20ish knot planing hulls? Not everyone who buys a boat wants to go over the horizon. If they do there's certainly better choices than these three motor yachts.

 

[BandB]

So besides you, who said anything about "passage making"? Thought we where looking at roughly similar 20ish knot planing hulls? Not everyone who buys a boat wants to go over the horizon. If they do there's certainly better choices than these three motor yachts.

No one did. It's just that we started discussing boats thought about as having that ability.

As a coastal boat, I'd personally not choose the Fleming or the Nordhavn, simply as I'd want more speed. So as a coastal boat, I'd be far more inclined to choose the Hatteras 60 and we came very close to doing so...more than once in our quest. It would be a great loop boat. My only criticism of it as a coastal boat is the lack of a good, functional, lower helm and, for us, that was a deal killer. The quality of Hatteras you can't beat. Better built boat than what we chose, just not better for our purposes.

 

[go-planing]

Ocean Alexander built some spectacular boats in the 58 to mid-60s size. Sadly they have move upmarket and their smallest new build is the 70E.

 

[caltexflanc]

Haven't checked out the new Nordhavn yet. But indeed the F55 is a small boat for it's length. We checked one out very thoroughly at their dealer in Newport Beach when we were contemplating "what boat"? My conclusion, verified years later when a guest on one, is that it was a great boat to be underway in, a "day boat" if you will, but the ER and the MSR were complete deal killers for us.

Here's my Hatt 56MY next to an F55, and just because I have the pic handy, end-to-end with an F65:

 

[BandB]

The profile of any Fleming is going to be very low compared to your Hatteras. However, the 58 is 7' longer than the 55, 18" more beam, 1' more height, 21,000 lbs more displacement. The Fleming 58 is a lot closer in size to the Fleming 65, than it is to the Fleming 55.

I look at the low profile of a Fleming and it concerns me, but then seeing what they handle and how, I think much differently. With a Hatteras (or a Nordhavn, for that matter) you sure do feel like you've got a lot more boat around you.

 

[Codger2]

So besides you, who said anything about "passage making"? Thought we where looking at roughly similar 20ish knot planing hulls? Not everyone who buys a boat wants to go over the horizon. If they do there's certainly better choices than these three motor yachts.

My feelings exactly! I don't know much about the CP59...no one does! My limited experience with Fleming boats has made me a huge fan, however, & I came very close to pulling the trigger on a 55 some years ago. In the final analysis, the crawl around ER backed me off. For that kind of money I want an ER I can "stroll" into. Also, from the videos of the CP that I've seen, Fleming's elegant interiors win hands down win with my wife. I had a similar take on the galley as Don pointed out. Both boats have comparable speeds but my vote at this juncture goes to Fleming. (And getting several pairs of knee pads for the ER.)

 

[Codger2]

Ocean Alexander built some spectacular boats in the 58 to mid-60s size. Sadly they have move upmarket and their smallest new build is the 70E.

It should come as no surprise to any frequent reader on this forum that my boat of choice is Ocean Alexander. I'm on my second one at the moment but without a lot of arm twisting I could be seduced into buying an OA 64. All things considered... where I live, open water distances, roomy ER, SRs for my family & guests, pure comfort, etc. this model really tugs at my heart strings.

My friend's OA 64

 

[twistedtree]

The CP59 is not meant to appeal to Nordhavn's traditional base. It's a branching out to try to capture people who otherwise pass on Nordhavn because their goals are more "Coastal Cruising", i.e. they want the ability to go fast and are willing to sacrifice range because they never plan to cross an ocean. It's going after the Flemings, Grand Banks, etc. of the world. I wish Nordhavn all the best in that pursuit.

When we talk about "passage makers", we must have different definitions because I don't see the Fleming (or the Nordhavn CP59) as credible passage makers. They are coastal cruisers, or maybe extended coastal cruisers if you want to coin a new term. To me, a passage maker can cross oceans. That means making it to Hawaii, crossing the Pacific via something other than the Aleutian chain, and crossing the Atlantic without stopping in Greenland and/or Iceland. I just don't see the Flemings having the requisite range. Maybe if you crossed an ocean at idle RPM, but that has all sorts of other problem.

That said, I think the coastal cruiser market is much bigger than the passage maker market, and I really like the Flemings in the market they serve. If the time comes when I want another coastal cruiser, Fleming would be very high on my list.

 

[caltexflanc]

I look at the low profile of a Fleming and it concerns me, but then seeing what they handle and how, I think much differently. With a Hatteras (or a Nordhavn, for that matter) you sure do feel like you've got a lot more boat around you.

Having some good sea time on both, the Fleiming is a noticeably better "sea boat" than my Hatt was; low CG and narrow is good for that purpose. But where if failed completely for us was as a sole residence. Which, I should add, was also a failure for almost every pre- 2012 Nordhavn we've been on, from 40 through original 62. Haven't been on anything produced since.

 

[twistedtree]

Having some good sea time on both, the Fleiming is a noticeably better "sea boat" than my Hatt was; low CG and narrow is good for that purpose. But where if failed completely for us was as a sole residence. Which, I should add, was also a failure for almost every pre- 2012 Nordhavn we've been on, from 40 through original 62. Haven't been on anything produced since.

What caused it/them to fail as a primary residence?

 

[caltexflanc]

What caused it/them to fail as a primary residence?

I listed the two key factors for the Fleming, ER ergonomics for the likes of big clumsy me, and the small MSR with a "dive in", 42' SeaRayish bed for both of us. Smallish galley up and salon, limited aft deck didn't appeal to Ann either. There was a whole lot to like, but all in all it just wasn't for us and our intended use.

As for the Nordhavns (of which the old 57 was our clear favorite), in general we didn't like the rabbit's warren layouts, which I can understand for passage making (you can't get tossed to far), in most cases not full stand up ERs, and smallish galleys. I didn't like the rear visibility of most of the pilothouses and neither of us saw a very appealing flying bridge on any of them if so equipped. Again, a lot to like but not for what we were going to (and did) use the boat for.

 

[Hawgwash]

I came very close to pulling the trigger on a 55 some years ago. In the final analysis, the crawl around ER backed me off.

I got my first look into the 55 ER today and was surprised how tight it was in there with Cummins 480s. One would have to be very disciplined to do thorough checks in there and I bet even a mechanic familiar with that boat would take longer to get stuff done.

Pity.

 

[caltexflanc]

I got my first look into the 55 ER today and was surprised how tight it was in there with Cummins 480s. One would have to be very disciplined to do thorough checks in there and I bet even a mechanic familiar with that boat would take longer to get stuff done.

Pity.

For it's tightness it is actually very well laid out for checking and executing the basics. I just hate trying to contort at all merely to get in there. For bigger jobs, one opens the over head hatches, not so convenient.