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Old 05-15-2016, 02:19 PM   #21
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Haven't checked out the new Nordhavn yet. But indeed the F55 is a small boat for it's length. We checked one out very thoroughly at their dealer in Newport Beach when we were contemplating "what boat"? My conclusion, verified years later when a guest on one, is that it was a great boat to be underway in, a "day boat" if you will, but the ER and the MSR were complete deal killers for us.

Here's my Hatt 56MY next to an F55, and just because I have the pic handy, end-to-end with an F65:





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Old 05-15-2016, 03:10 PM   #22
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The profile of any Fleming is going to be very low compared to your Hatteras. However, the 58 is 7' longer than the 55, 18" more beam, 1' more height, 21,000 lbs more displacement. The Fleming 58 is a lot closer in size to the Fleming 65, than it is to the Fleming 55.

I look at the low profile of a Fleming and it concerns me, but then seeing what they handle and how, I think much differently. With a Hatteras (or a Nordhavn, for that matter) you sure do feel like you've got a lot more boat around you.
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Old 05-15-2016, 04:14 PM   #23
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So besides you, who said anything about "passage making"? Thought we where looking at roughly similar 20ish knot planing hulls? Not everyone who buys a boat wants to go over the horizon. If they do there's certainly better choices than these three motor yachts.
My feelings exactly! I don't know much about the CP59...no one does! My limited experience with Fleming boats has made me a huge fan, however, & I came very close to pulling the trigger on a 55 some years ago. In the final analysis, the crawl around ER backed me off. For that kind of money I want an ER I can "stroll" into. Also, from the videos of the CP that I've seen, Fleming's elegant interiors win hands down win with my wife. I had a similar take on the galley as Don pointed out. Both boats have comparable speeds but my vote at this juncture goes to Fleming. (And getting several pairs of knee pads for the ER.)
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Old 05-15-2016, 04:29 PM   #24
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Ocean Alexander built some spectacular boats in the 58 to mid-60s size. Sadly they have move upmarket and their smallest new build is the 70E.
It should come as no surprise to any frequent reader on this forum that my boat of choice is Ocean Alexander. I'm on my second one at the moment but without a lot of arm twisting I could be seduced into buying an OA 64. All things considered... where I live, open water distances, roomy ER, SRs for my family & guests, pure comfort, etc. this model really tugs at my heart strings.

My friend's OA 64
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Old 05-15-2016, 04:36 PM   #25
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The CP59 is not meant to appeal to Nordhavn's traditional base. It's a branching out to try to capture people who otherwise pass on Nordhavn because their goals are more "Coastal Cruising", i.e. they want the ability to go fast and are willing to sacrifice range because they never plan to cross an ocean. It's going after the Flemings, Grand Banks, etc. of the world. I wish Nordhavn all the best in that pursuit.

When we talk about "passage makers", we must have different definitions because I don't see the Fleming (or the Nordhavn CP59) as credible passage makers. They are coastal cruisers, or maybe extended coastal cruisers if you want to coin a new term. To me, a passage maker can cross oceans. That means making it to Hawaii, crossing the Pacific via something other than the Aleutian chain, and crossing the Atlantic without stopping in Greenland and/or Iceland. I just don't see the Flemings having the requisite range. Maybe if you crossed an ocean at idle RPM, but that has all sorts of other problem.

That said, I think the coastal cruiser market is much bigger than the passage maker market, and I really like the Flemings in the market they serve. If the time comes when I want another coastal cruiser, Fleming would be very high on my list.
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Old 05-15-2016, 05:12 PM   #26
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I look at the low profile of a Fleming and it concerns me, but then seeing what they handle and how, I think much differently. With a Hatteras (or a Nordhavn, for that matter) you sure do feel like you've got a lot more boat around you.
Having some good sea time on both, the Fleiming is a noticeably better "sea boat" than my Hatt was; low CG and narrow is good for that purpose. But where if failed completely for us was as a sole residence. Which, I should add, was also a failure for almost every pre- 2012 Nordhavn we've been on, from 40 through original 62. Haven't been on anything produced since.
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Old 05-15-2016, 07:56 PM   #27
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Having some good sea time on both, the Fleiming is a noticeably better "sea boat" than my Hatt was; low CG and narrow is good for that purpose. But where if failed completely for us was as a sole residence. Which, I should add, was also a failure for almost every pre- 2012 Nordhavn we've been on, from 40 through original 62. Haven't been on anything produced since.
What caused it/them to fail as a primary residence?
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Old 05-15-2016, 08:08 PM   #28
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What caused it/them to fail as a primary residence?
I listed the two key factors for the Fleming, ER ergonomics for the likes of big clumsy me, and the small MSR with a "dive in", 42' SeaRayish bed for both of us. Smallish galley up and salon, limited aft deck didn't appeal to Ann either. There was a whole lot to like, but all in all it just wasn't for us and our intended use.

As for the Nordhavns (of which the old 57 was our clear favorite), in general we didn't like the rabbit's warren layouts, which I can understand for passage making (you can't get tossed to far), in most cases not full stand up ERs, and smallish galleys. I didn't like the rear visibility of most of the pilothouses and neither of us saw a very appealing flying bridge on any of them if so equipped. Again, a lot to like but not for what we were going to (and did) use the boat for.
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Old 05-15-2016, 08:23 PM   #29
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Originally Posted by Codger2;
I came very close to pulling the trigger on a 55 some years ago. In the final analysis, the crawl around ER backed me off.
I got my first look into the 55 ER today and was surprised how tight it was in there with Cummins 480s. One would have to be very disciplined to do thorough checks in there and I bet even a mechanic familiar with that boat would take longer to get stuff done.

Pity.
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Old 05-15-2016, 08:29 PM   #30
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I got my first look into the 55 ER today and was surprised how tight it was in there with Cummins 480s. One would have to be very disciplined to do thorough checks in there and I bet even a mechanic familiar with that boat would take longer to get stuff done.

Pity.
For it's tightness it is actually very well laid out for checking and executing the basics. I just hate trying to contort at all merely to get in there. For bigger jobs, one opens the over head hatches, not so convenient.
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Old 05-15-2016, 09:30 PM   #31
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I got my first look into the 55 ER today and was surprised how tight it was in there with Cummins 480s. One would have to be very disciplined to do thorough checks in there and I bet even a mechanic familiar with that boat would take longer to get stuff done.

Pity.
Did you get a chance to look into the ER of an F65? Curious as to whether its as big an issue for it as it is for most people on the F55.
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Old 05-15-2016, 09:50 PM   #32
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I haven't been on a fleming 65 or larger for a while, but I remember that the ER entrance was from the outside. Does that sound right? In that size range lots of boats are designed assuming a crew that never mixes with the owners/passengers. We run our boat as a couple, and for me having convenient interior access to the ER is a must-have. Anyway, I remember that the exterior access to the ER was a real turn off for me.
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Old 05-15-2016, 10:44 PM   #33
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Did you get a chance to look into the ER of an F65? Curious as to whether its as big an issue for it as it is for most people on the F55.
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I haven't been on a fleming 65 or larger for a while, but I remember that the ER entrance was from the outside. Does that sound right? In that size range lots of boats are designed assuming a crew that never mixes with the owners/passengers. We run our boat as a couple, and for me having convenient interior access to the ER is a must-have. Anyway, I remember that the exterior access to the ER was a real turn off for me.
I did not get aboard a 65. I struck up a bit of a dockside acquaintance with the owner of the 55. I happened by as he was getting ready to go home and he welcomed me to the ER but I only observed from the lazarette. According to him the 55 and 65 had the same ER access; the water tight door from the lazarette and a crawl through door from guest or crew quarters immediately forward of the ER, plus salon hatches. I understand the 65 ER is only slightly larger that the 55.

As George said above, it is well laid out but you still have to be doubled over, crouched or on your knees to get around.
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Old 05-20-2016, 03:20 AM   #34
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Ok so there was one of the new 55's at the Sanctuary Cove boat show, and I had a long chat to one of their guys today because it was not overly busy. I took a look in the ER, went up to front of it and worked my way back. I doubt there is any more room than the earlier iterations of the 55 but it is quite well laid out and frankly I don't really see an issue with the space and access. Sure, not a lot better than I have at present in my Mk 1, but manageable. Layout with service access is the key.

Having said that, the guy was then explaining how the 58 ER has over 6' headroom at the front and not far short of it at the back. Over a foot more freeboard also. Interesting that the extra 3' LOA, freeboard and perhaps a little more beam (can't remember) all conspire to add 10 t to displacement, so the 58 is really a much bigger boat. Seems to be selling well though - 20 sold to date but none yet in Australia. Seems that 50% of buyers go for the new GA, with steepish winding stair down to cabins. I think I'd stick with the traditional GA, with master in bow and just a few easy steps to get to each different part of the boat. There is no wave slap forward as there are no hard chines, so I don't see the need for a midship master on a Fleming, particularly with the impact it has on access to the saloon from the sleeping areas.

The biggest nit I could pick on the 55 was the size of the 3rd cabin. Much smaller than I remembered. But of course the 58 fixes that issue as well.

I wanted to take a look at the Horizon PC52, but it was sold yesterday, the first day of a 4 day show and the 'new owner' forbade further access. Crazy. The sale may not even proceed to completion if he has finance issues for example. There were some other large boats sold on day 1 as well, and they were still showing folks through them although I did not go aboard them. It seems the boating sector is having a good year down here!
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Old 05-20-2016, 09:31 AM   #35
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The 58 is closer in size to the 62 than it is to the 55. It's a great improvement. It was in response to many complaints and the greatest single complaint they were getting was that everyone else was offering mid ship full beam master cabins. It's not just the location of the master but the size with it moved midship. Also, the other plus is that leaves what was the master as a great VIP.

The greater beam of the 58 also gives substantial improvement to the engine room.
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Old 05-20-2016, 11:18 AM   #36
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I just looked at the the CP59 on the Nordhavn site. I was anticipating a hybrid giving the best of their existing line crossed with a Fleming. A few things surprised me:

Cored hull (below water line) -- aren't their other boats solid fiberglass below the water line? I believe Flemings are.

No Portuguese bridge. The F55's have them, and they seem to be used, enjoyed and appreciated (not a Fleming, but I really like mine).

Really small dashboard at the helm -- I would have expected room for 3 or 4 displays and lots of control heads.

Fuel capacity -- 1,100 gallons. I would have expected at least 2,000. A boat like that should be able to transit Baja (or the US Pacific coast) without stopping for fuel along the way.

Engines -- they went with the 715hp QSM11's. I think a better choice would have been the 660hp versions, which put out more hp all the way up to their rated rpm (2300, as I recall), while the 715hp's get that extra horse power only but adding 200 rpm.

Lastly, and it is purely personal taste, but I don't like the interior architecture. Perhaps my adverse reaction is exacerbated by the finishes of that particular boat, however.

Still, I am anxious to see one in person.
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Old 05-20-2016, 11:22 AM   #37
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A potential advantage for the CP 59 to the F58 is it's much lower weight and possible equal creature comforts. Not to mention lower fuel burn and greater range.

Two new clean sheet designs is good news for the industry and pensive buyers.
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Old 05-20-2016, 01:18 PM   #38
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I just looked at the the CP59 on the Nordhavn site. I was anticipating a hybrid giving the best of their existing line crossed with a Fleming. A few things surprised me:

Cored hull (below water line) -- aren't their other boats solid fiberglass below the water line? I believe Flemings are.

No Portuguese bridge. The F55's have them, and they seem to be used, enjoyed and appreciated (not a Fleming, but I really like mine).

Really small dashboard at the helm -- I would have expected room for 3 or 4 displays and lots of control heads.

Fuel capacity -- 1,100 gallons. I would have expected at least 2,000. A boat like that should be able to transit Baja (or the US Pacific coast) without stopping for fuel along the way.

Engines -- they went with the 715hp QSM11's. I think a better choice would have been the 660hp versions, which put out more hp all the way up to their rated rpm (2300, as I recall), while the 715hp's get that extra horse power only but adding 200 rpm.

Lastly, and it is purely personal taste, but I don't like the interior architecture. Perhaps my adverse reaction is exacerbated by the finishes of that particular boat, however.

Still, I am anxious to see one in person.
Basically I think of it as them trying to be something they aren't, trying to address a specific need. How well they executed that will long be debatable. I'm sure there are some Nordhavn owners who have asked for such. I do not see it pulling other business in.
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Old 05-20-2016, 01:44 PM   #39
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I spent some time looking at the 58 on Fleming's site. Doesn't look so much a clean sheet design but a Marlowe clone. It's obvious that Marlowe has cut into their franchise and they heard the reasons why from customers loud and clear.

The arrangement with forward master is still completely unacceptable for us. No steps and no crawl-ins for us. The midship arrangement looks very nice. That would work!

Galley a little cramped, but we were spoiled on the Hatt, where it was also nice to have the dinette in the galley as well for a variety of reasons. Being galley down, the Hatt was full beam (18'2" on ours vs 17'6" on the Fleming, less the side decks).

Pilot house and lower helm look nice, suits me at first glance, however, I would want to see how much visibility it has to the rear, usually my biggest issue with separate pilot houses.

Aft deck could be great if they extended the boat deck all the way aft and made it encloseable with something like EZ2CY.

Flying bridge looks great but that upper helm looks awfully cramped. Would have to see in person. But generally speaking, has the excellent underway ergonomics of other Flemings. As for the ER, would have to experience in person, not sure how you get in there..

Is there any outdoor seating forward of the pilot house? One of our very favorite spots to be, especially underway on a nice day, but also at anchor, was the forward bench seat or forward sunpad deck; that would definitely have to be addressed.
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Old 05-20-2016, 02:51 PM   #40
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I spent some time looking at the 58 on Fleming's site. Doesn't look so much a clean sheet design but a Marlowe clone. It's obvious that Marlowe has cut into their franchise and they heard the reasons why from customers loud and clear.

.
I agree with you on the forward seating. It is nice to have. I don't agree on the Marlow clone nor do I agree that Marlow has in any way cut into their franchise. Marlow did cut into Grand Banks, but of course that's where he came from. Right now I don't see them cutting into much of anyone's franchise. Fleming and Marlow customers though are very different. Fleming's always been low volume and continues much the same.
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