Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
 
Old 08-11-2012, 10:21 AM   #1
Enigma
 
RT Firefly's Avatar
 
City: Slicker?
Country: Bumpkin?
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 9,994
Flag etiquette

Greetings,
If I wish to fly a state flag, where should it be flown? I've checked Chapmans but no specific mention is made. I do not have a small mast at the bow where club burgees are sometimes flown and I hesitate to use the starboard spreader in case some time in the future I have occasion to fly a national courtesy flag or can I fly the state flag below the courtesy flag?
__________________
Advertisement

__________________
RTF
RT Firefly is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 08-11-2012, 10:33 AM   #2
Guru
 
Keith's Avatar
 
Vessel Name: Anastasia III
Vessel Model: Krogen 42
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 2,716
I fly mine on my starboard spreader. I think I remember you're never supposed to fly two flags at the same position, although I've done it with my cocktail and beer flags. ;-)
__________________

Keith is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-11-2012, 10:37 AM   #3
Guru
 
Forkliftt's Avatar
 
City: Biloxi Mississippi
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Patricia Louise II
Vessel Model: 1983 42' Present Sundeck
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 2,433
Great question. I would assume that if you fly an American flag and a state flag, the state flag should be placed at a lower point than Old Glory?
Forkliftt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-11-2012, 10:44 AM   #4
Guru
 
rochepoint's Avatar
 
City: Sidney BC
Country: Canada
Vessel Name: Rochepoint
Vessel Model: 1985 Cheer Men PT38 Sedan
Join Date: Apr 2009
Posts: 1,191
Quote:
Originally Posted by RT Firefly View Post
Greetings,
If I wish to fly a state flag, where should it be flown? I've checked Chapmans but no specific mention is made. I do not have a small mast at the bow where club burgees are sometimes flown and I hesitate to use the starboard spreader in case some time in the future I have occasion to fly a national courtesy flag or can I fly the state flag below the courtesy flag?

Found this Flag and Etiquette Committee Flag FAQ
__________________
Cheers Mike Barge
MV Rochepoint
Sidney, British Columbia.
"Yes, I have the right anchor"
rochepoint is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-11-2012, 10:48 AM   #5
Guru
 
psneeld's Avatar
 
City: Avalon, NJ
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Freedom
Vessel Model: Albin 40
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 15,856
Quote:
Originally Posted by RT Firefly View Post
Greetings,
If I wish to fly a state flag, where should it be flown? I've checked Chapmans but no specific mention is made. I do not have a small mast at the bow where club burgees are sometimes flown and I hesitate to use the starboard spreader in case some time in the future I have occasion to fly a national courtesy flag or can I fly the state flag below the courtesy flag?
That's why I like the older Chapman's as the "old customs,courtesies and proceedures (nav, boat handling, etc are seen in a different light).

My USCG OCS copy Ed 52 1976 has on page 470...not direct quotes...

That if not against the law, a state flag can be flown...

if so on a boat with masts, at the mast head in place of the private signal, officers flag or USCGA ensign.

On a mastless vessel, the bow staff in place of a club burgee.

If flown in place of the USCGA ensign, then an officer's flag cannot be flown from the spreader.

From my perspective...when flying a foreign courstesy flag...NO other flags except maybe a club burgee from the bow staff...you really shouldn't fly any other US related flags...just too touchy. If you flew the state flag from the masthead, higher than the courtesy flag...it may be taken poorly, flying the state flag from the spreader below the cforeign courtesy flag might be OK...but it's not suggested to be flown there ever, so I'm nt sure if it is inappropriate.
psneeld is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-11-2012, 10:57 AM   #6
Guru
 
psneeld's Avatar
 
City: Avalon, NJ
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Freedom
Vessel Model: Albin 40
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 15,856
Quote:
Originally Posted by Forkliftt View Post
Great question. I would assume that if you fly an American flag and a state flag, the state flag should be placed at a lower point than Old Glory?
The ONLY place Old Glory should ever be flown on a power boat is from a stern staff or gaff (a possibility would be on the lift line for a boom if a dingy made the stern staff an issue)

So it doesn't matter where all other flags go...there's only "one place of honor" for every flag situation and "Old Glory" should go there or not at all and no other flag should ever be flown from there.

Other may disagree and that's fine...just passing along the customs and courtesies...even in Chapman's the statement is made that no law has been passed compelling the prper etiquette because "It has probably never been contemplated that a loyal citzen would ever do otherwise."
psneeld is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-11-2012, 11:04 AM   #7
Guru
 
psneeld's Avatar
 
City: Avalon, NJ
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Freedom
Vessel Model: Albin 40
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 15,856
Quote:
Originally Posted by rochepoint View Post
Interesting...other than both suggesting don't fly a state flag...they differ a lot on philosophy so I'm guessing the USPS though a little longer and harder on the subject than my 1976 Chapman's (even though he thought long and hard on it for the preceeding 50 years..
psneeld is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-11-2012, 11:15 AM   #8
Enigma
 
RT Firefly's Avatar
 
City: Slicker?
Country: Bumpkin?
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 9,994
Greetings,
GREAT answers but still in a bit of a quandary. Mr. Forklift. Evidently on a power vessel the location of greatest honor is at the stern mast thus precluding that "Old Glory" be at the highest point. A courtesy flag flown at the starboard spreader may be higher than the US flag but is not considered a discourtesy to the US flag (or so I understand). Sorry Mr. psneeld, I missed your earlier comment-guess I didn't scroll down enough.
Nothing in what I've been able to read mentions anything about the port spreader. Is is always empty? That's the location I thought of flying the state flag.
__________________
RTF
RT Firefly is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 08-11-2012, 11:26 AM   #9
Guru
 
Moonstruck's Avatar
 
City: Hailing Port: Charleston, SC
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Moonstruck
Vessel Model: Sabre 42 Hardtop Express
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 7,848
Quote:
Originally Posted by RT Firefly View Post
Greetings,
GREAT answers but still in a bit of a quandary. Mr. Forklift. Evidently on a power vessel the location of greatest honor is at the stern mast thus precluding that "Old Glory" be at the highest point. A courtesy flag flown at the starboard spreader may be higher than the US flag but is not considered a discourtesy to the US flag (or so I understand). Sorry Mr. psneeld, I missed your earlier comment-guess I didn't scroll down enough.
Nothing in what I've been able to read mentions anything about the port spreader. Is is always empty? That's the location I thought of flying the state flag.
Sometimes the owner present or absent flag is flown from the port spreader. Since the state flag is not required and considered a private signal, I see no problem with it on the port spreader. That is if the starboard spreader is occupied with a courtesy or quarantine flag. Have you considered flying it from an antennae?
__________________
Don on Moonstruck
Sabre 42 Hardtop Express & Blackfin 25 CC
When cruising life is simpler, but on a grander scale (author unknown)
http://moonstruckblog.wordpress.com/
Moonstruck is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-11-2012, 11:31 AM   #10
Guru
 
psneeld's Avatar
 
City: Avalon, NJ
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Freedom
Vessel Model: Albin 40
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 15,856
Quote:
Originally Posted by RT Firefly View Post
Greetings,
GREAT answers but still in a bit of a quandary. Mr. Forklift. Evidently on a power vessel the location of greatest honor is at the stern mast thus precluding that "Old Glory" be at the highest point. A courtesy flag flown at the starboard spreader may be higher than the US flag but is not considered a discourtesy to the US flag (or so I understand). Sorry Mr. psneeld, I missed your earlier comment-guess I didn't scroll down enough.
Nothing in what I've been able to read mentions anything about the port spreader. Is is always empty? That's the location I thought of flying the state flag.
More from that USPS site...

Alternative Display Locations

Avoid flying more than one ensign from a single halyard or antenna. On the other hand, when the preferred positions for an organizational burgee or officer flag are not available, you may fly these from spreader halyard, with more than one on a hoist if necessary. In such instances however, you must observe the proper order of precedence. If you must multiple-hoist these flags, no more than one flag of the same type or stature may be flown from the same halyard. Each flag must be senior to the one below it, except that the officer-ion-charge pennant may be placed above the officer flag when it is appropriate to do so. When neither the preferred location nor a spreader halyard is available, a radio antenna may be used. Never fly any other flag on the same halyard as, or on a halyard to starboard of, a courtesy flag
psneeld is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-11-2012, 11:42 AM   #11
Guru
 
City: Pensacola
Country: USA
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 748
One other point, IF your vessel is a US documented vessel, you are required to fly the US Flag. The only flag allowed to fly above the US Ensign is the Church Pennant and only when observing service.
Blue Heron is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-11-2012, 11:55 AM   #12
Scraping Paint
 
City: -
Country: -
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 13,748
RTF--- While people get all wrapped around the axle with flag etiquette I personally don't think it matters as long as you are in compliance--- by which I mean it doesn't attract undue attention from the USCG, Customs, DEA, etc--- with the national ensign. The rest of it is like arguing about how you should knot your tie. Fly stuff, as Eric calls it.

My rule of thumb for this sort of thing is "Is anyone important going to care?" When it comes to burgees and courtesy flags and whatnot, I think the answer is no.

We fly the national ensign from the boom (gaff). The club burgee goes on the jackstaff on the bow pulpit. Everything else--- courtesy flags, etc.--- goes on the starboard spreader. We don't fly a state flag but if we did that's where we'd fly it from.
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	La Perouse Port Browning.jpg
Views:	150
Size:	46.0 KB
ID:	12259  
Marin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-11-2012, 11:56 AM   #13
Guru
 
Moonstruck's Avatar
 
City: Hailing Port: Charleston, SC
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Moonstruck
Vessel Model: Sabre 42 Hardtop Express
Join Date: Nov 2008
Posts: 7,848
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blue Heron View Post
One other point, IF your vessel is a US documented vessel, you are required to fly the US Flag. The only flag allowed to fly above the US Ensign is the Church Pennant and only when observing service.
A lot of flags may be flown higher than the US flag, but not on the same hoist. The USPS ensign may be flown in place of the US flag while in the US but not abroad. The gaff or the stern staff are the positions of honor reserved for the US flag.

Here is Moonstruck in the Bahamas. US flag on the stern staff, Bahamas courtesy flag on the starboard antennae, and club pennant on the bow.

__________________
Don on Moonstruck
Sabre 42 Hardtop Express & Blackfin 25 CC
When cruising life is simpler, but on a grander scale (author unknown)
http://moonstruckblog.wordpress.com/
Moonstruck is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-11-2012, 12:03 PM   #14
Guru
 
City: Pensacola
Country: USA
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 748
<H3>UNITED STATES CODE</H3><H3>TITLE 36</H3><H3>CHAPTER 10</H3>175. Position and manner of display

The flag, when carried in a procession with another flag or flags, should be either on the marching right; that is, the flag's own right, or, if there is a line of other flags, in front of the center of that line.
  • (a) The flag should not be displayed on a float in a parade except from a staff, or as provided in subsection (i) of this section.
  • (b) The flag should not be draped over the hood, top, sides, or back of a vehicle or of a railroad train or a boat. When the flag is displayed on a motorcar, the staff shall be fixed firmly to the chassis or clamped to the right fender.
  • (c) No other flag or pennant should be placed above or, if on the same level, to the right of the flag of the United States of America, except during church services conducted by naval chaplains at sea, when the church pennant may be flown above the flag during church services for the personnel of the Navy. No person shall display the flag of the United Nations or any other national or international flag equal, above, or in a position of superior prominence or honor to, or in place of, the flag of the United States at any place within the United States or any Territory or possession thereof: Provided, That nothing in this section shall make unlawful the continuance of the practice heretofore followed of displaying the flag of the United Nations in a position of superior prominence or honor, and other national flags in positions of equal prominence or honor, with that of the flag of the United States at the headquarters of the United Nations.
Blue Heron is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-11-2012, 12:11 PM   #15
Guru
 
Keith's Avatar
 
Vessel Name: Anastasia III
Vessel Model: Krogen 42
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 2,716
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blue Heron View Post
One other point, IF your vessel is a US documented vessel, you are required to fly the US Flag. The only flag allowed to fly above the US Ensign is the Church Pennant and only when observing service.
I believe the yacht ensign is acceptable in lieu of the US flag.
Keith is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-11-2012, 12:19 PM   #16
Guru
 
City: Pensacola
Country: USA
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 748
Re: State Flags and the US Ensign from same US Code:

(f) When flags of States, cities, or localities, or pennants of societies are flown on the same halyard with the flag of the United States, the latter should always be at the peak. When the flags are flown from adjacent staffs, the flag of the United States should be hoisted first and lowered last. No such flag or pennant may be placed above the flag of the United States or to the United States flag's right.
Blue Heron is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-11-2012, 12:36 PM   #17
Guru
 
psneeld's Avatar
 
City: Avalon, NJ
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Freedom
Vessel Model: Albin 40
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 15,856
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blue Heron View Post
Re: State Flags and the US Ensign from same US Code:

(f) When flags of States, cities, or localities, or pennants of societies are flown on the same halyard with the flag of the United States, the latter should always be at the peak. When the flags are flown from adjacent staffs, the flag of the United States should be hoisted first and lowered last. No such flag or pennant may be placed above the flag of the United States or to the United States flag's right.
Nice...but you keep quoting land based display....not nautical.

Look at any yacht club that knows what it's going...the US Flag is on the gaff...not at the top of the main pole...if it is they are incorrect. The US Flag is at the place of honor, yet geometrically lower than any other flag flown at the top of the main hoist.

Plus I have never found where there is a requirement for documented vessels to fly a flag (at least in US waters), internationally is a different story...there I definitely would want to and be expected to. Do you know the actual law or have a reference?
psneeld is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-11-2012, 01:09 PM   #18
Guru
 
City: Pensacola
Country: USA
Join Date: May 2012
Posts: 748
Actually psneeld, the US Code doesn't differentiate between land and water. The display is the same regardless. The law is the law.
Regarding your other question, that US documented vessels fly the Ensign, it was listed on my documentation paperwork. Currently on my boat. When I get a chance I will provide the reference. If your vessel is documented, recommend you take a look at your accompanying paperwork.
Blue Heron is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-11-2012, 01:17 PM   #19
Guru
 
Forkliftt's Avatar
 
City: Biloxi Mississippi
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Patricia Louise II
Vessel Model: 1983 42' Present Sundeck
Join Date: Oct 2007
Posts: 2,433
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blue Heron View Post
One other point, IF your vessel is a US documented vessel, you are required to fly the US Flag. The only flag allowed to fly above the US Ensign is the Church Pennant and only when observing service.
Interesting fact about being documented. But of course you will need to prove your point when you get to the boat and can make a copy. When we fly a flag it is Old Glory, from the aft, unless we make a trip to Kemah. The Admiral usually insists on swapping to our Texas flag, also flown aft. (She loves Texas, can't blame her) Won't be making that mistake again!
Forkliftt is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-11-2012, 01:25 PM   #20
Guru
 
psneeld's Avatar
 
City: Avalon, NJ
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Freedom
Vessel Model: Albin 40
Join Date: Oct 2011
Posts: 15,856
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blue Heron View Post
Actually psneeld, the US Code doesn't differentiate between land and water. The display is the same regardless. The law is the law.
Regarding your other question, that US documented vessels fly the Ensign, it was listed on my documentation paperwork. Currently on my boat. When I get a chance I will provide the reference. If your vessel is documented, recommend you take a look at your accompanying paperwork.
Nothing came with my documentation except my documentation certificate and I see the note about marking but nothing about flags. I am really curios if it is spelled out in writing someplace.

If you think you fly the US Flag from anything but a stern staff with nothing else, from the gaff with nothing else or from the leech of a sailing vessels aftmost sail....OK...and if you don't think theres specific "at least customs followed by the USN, USCG, ACOE, NOAA, Customs, DEA and whoever else is out there these days where they fly the US flag UNIFORMLY...then OK to that also...

Here's something else when seeing where the USN fly it...

In the US, the Navy flag directive says the national flag goes at the truck of a mast with a crosstree and no gaff, and at the gaff of a mast equipped with one. This is also the practice prescribed by the New York Yacht Club Yacht Routine (binding only on the NYYC, but also used by many other clubs) and Chapman's Piloting (a boating manual).
__________________

psneeld is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Tags
etiquete, flag

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off





All times are GMT -5. The time now is 10:18 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2017, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0
Copyright 2006 - 2012