Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 01-14-2019, 10:49 PM   #1
Guru
 
Comodave's Avatar
 
City: Au Gres, MI
Country: US
Vessel Name: Never Say Never
Vessel Model: President 41 DC
Join Date: Jul 2015
Posts: 3,429
Fitzgerald coliision story

Interesting arrticle about the Fitzgerald collision. Scary about the deck officers that could not pass a Nav Rules Test.



https://www.militarytimes.com/news/y...t-you-to-read/
__________________
Advertisement

Comodave is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-25-2019, 07:27 PM   #2
Member
 
Wild Blue's Avatar
 
City: Morro Bay-Los Osos, CA
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Wild Blue
Vessel Model: Selene 53
Join Date: Mar 2012
Posts: 20
Great USS Fitzgerald Read

Here's a very readable article with nice graphics about the USS Fitzgerald collision with container ship Crystal.

https://features.propublica.org/navy...crash-crystal/

After this read, the obvious recommendations are:
1. Buy each Navy ship a $25,000 Furuno commercial radar. Way easy to use and very reliable.
2. Look out the window more often.
3. Teach your crew that when you're in the world's most busiest strait, don't be training folks on the PORT side when all the traffic to avoid is on the STARBOARD side!

I think most recreational boaters could do a better job.
__________________

__________________
Alex http://www.mvWildBlue.com
Wild Blue is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-25-2019, 08:08 PM   #3
Senior Member
 
Action's Avatar
 
City: Phoenix, AZ
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Enigma
Vessel Model: 1997 Wellcraft Excel 26 SE
Join Date: Mar 2015
Posts: 134
Reminds me of ….

In the 80s I lived in the PNW. There a Washington State Ferry that grounded because it was off course. I believe the reason was the captian was engaged in extra activity with a female friend. In the reporting it was stated the ferry boats do not have depth sounders. The reason was the ferry boats are traveling a fixed route repeatedly that isn't suppose to change so there is no need for a sounder.

My thought was, they are carrying cars and some ferrys carry 40 to 100+. This one was about 50 if I recall correctly. And the state couldn't afford a hundred bucks on a depth sounder? With a sounder it isn't like the operator would avoid a grounding. (They don't exactly turn on a dime) However power could be reversed easily in an immanent grounding. Reducing the potential damage.

And being off course giving lessons to your gf on how to operate a ferry is an issue as well.
__________________
>>>>>>>>>>>Action
Action is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-25-2019, 08:13 PM   #4
Guru
 
Seevee's Avatar
 
City: st pete
Country: usa
Vessel Model: 400 Mainship
Join Date: Sep 2016
Posts: 1,980
Quote:
Originally Posted by Action View Post
Reminds me of ….

In the 80s I lived in the PNW. There a Washington State Ferry that grounded because it was off course. I believe the reason was the skipper was engaged in extra activity with a female friend. In the reporting it was stated the ferry boats do not have depth sounders. The reason was the ferry boats are traveling a fixed route repeatedly that isn't suppose to change so there is no need for a sounder.

My thought was, they are carrying cars and some ferrys carry 40 to 100+. This one was about 50 if I recall correctly. And the state couldn't afford a hundred bucks on a depth sounder? With a sounder it isn't like the operator would avoid a grounding. (They don't exactly turn on a dime) However power could be reversed easily in an immanent grounding. Reducing the potential damage.

And being off course giving lessons to your gf on how to operate a ferry is an issue as well.
Well, the question begs..... was she hot enough to sacrifice a grounding for?
__________________
Seevee
Seevee is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-25-2019, 08:46 PM   #5
Senior Member
 
Action's Avatar
 
City: Phoenix, AZ
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Enigma
Vessel Model: 1997 Wellcraft Excel 26 SE
Join Date: Mar 2015
Posts: 134
Good question. There wasn't a picture of the gf or the dude. There was a picture of the ferry stuck just off shore. No where near the dock, just a bunch of trees at the nearest shore.

I believe all of the passengers were removed from the ferry and it was dragged off of the grounding at high tide. There was some hull damage. No holing. I did find the event from 1983

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MV_Elwha

At 382 feet, displacing almost 4000 tons, 10,000+ HP from 4 diesel electric engines, 2 car decks with 144 car capacity and 2000 passenger capacity and they didn't think a hundred dollar (in 1980 dollars) Hummingbird was necessary.
__________________
>>>>>>>>>>>Action
Action is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-25-2019, 09:01 PM   #6
Senior Member
 
Action's Avatar
 
City: Phoenix, AZ
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Enigma
Vessel Model: 1997 Wellcraft Excel 26 SE
Join Date: Mar 2015
Posts: 134
Looks like Billy (the captain) passed away in 2003. No mention of his career ending event at the Washington State Ferry System in his obit.
__________________
>>>>>>>>>>>Action
Action is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-26-2019, 07:03 AM   #7
Dauntless Award
 
Wxx3's Avatar
 
City: New York, NY
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Dauntless
Vessel Model: Kadey Krogen 42 - 148
Join Date: Jan 2013
Posts: 2,659
I found this interesting:

"Normally, Benson directed the officer of the deck to call him if the ship deviated from its planned course by more than 500 yards to avoid traffic. But this night, Benson doubled the number to 1,000 yards, giving the officer more room to maneuver without having to wake him."

With these orders, if they don't deviate course, they never have to wake him.
How does an experienced officer not see that?

Even on Dauntless, the standing order is that if any boat gets within one mile of D to wake me. There is no misunderstanding that.
__________________
Richard on Dauntless,
New York

a Kadey Krogen 42 currently: https://share.garmin.com/dauntless
Blog:
https://dauntlessatsea.com
Wxx3 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-26-2019, 09:59 AM   #8
Guru
 
Ski in NC's Avatar
 
City: Wilmington, NC
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Louisa
Vessel Model: Custom Built 38
Join Date: Jan 2014
Posts: 4,908
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wild Blue View Post
Here's a very readable article with nice graphics about the USS Fitzgerald collision with container ship Crystal.

https://features.propublica.org/navy...crash-crystal/

After this read, the obvious recommendations are:
1. Buy each Navy ship a $25,000 Furuno commercial radar. Way easy to use and very reliable.
2. Look out the window more often.
3. Teach your crew that when you're in the world's most busiest strait, don't be training folks on the PORT side when all the traffic to avoid is on the STARBOARD side!

I think most recreational boaters could do a better job.
Well, I read the whole Propublica report. Wow.

This will probably get me in hot water on some levels, but one thing I noticed was that at the time of the collision, the officers in charge were women. OOD on bridge (appointed to operate the ship while capt slept), officer in charge of the combat center (where radar is, and traffic tracked) and officer in charge of the visual lookout. Some very young and inexperienced. Helm operated by a woman with 25 minutes (??) of experience on this actual helm.

Sounds sexist, but I have run boats with women on the crew, and my girl is often at our helm. My girl is smarter than I am on many levels, but one thing she is not good at is navigating at night and keeping a mental image of important nearby targets. The other women I crewed with were similar. They could do it, but it was not natural to them. I'm sure there are women out there that are natural excellent navigators, but I have not run into them.

And nobody stationed on stbd side as a visual lookout? Officer in charge of the lookout, her and her trainee were both on port side mostly occupied with some sort of training??

Ok, short manning. But you have what, 270 souls on board and you can't get someone out of a bunk for a stbd side lookout?

And no one seemed to be comparing radar echos to visual targets. That is a primary way of getting confidence in your radar. See something visually at say 2000yds and then check the screen. If it is not on the screen, then radar can't be trusted.
Ski in NC is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 02-26-2019, 10:38 AM   #9
Guru
 
Moonfish's Avatar


 
City: Port Townsend, WA
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Traveler
Vessel Model: Cheoy Lee 46 LRC
Join Date: Nov 2011
Posts: 858
Our daughter recently got deployed on the flight deck of the Theodore Roosevelt (her first job in the Navy). The carrier, which currently has a gold anchor, is in San Diego for a lot of refit work. They’re going out to sea for 2-3 days at a time on these short “shakedown cruises”. A couple weeks ago they came back to base early because, as she put it, “they broke the boat”...

I read the full article and decided that I wasn’t going to send her the link because she’s still so new and stressing about doing everything correctly. But I’m starting to rethink that. We’re flying down there this weekend to be with her for a few days (and see the granddaughter!). Methinks I’ll bring up the story of the Fitzgerald and discuss it with her.

She spent a lot of time sailing with us when she was in high school, and was also a deck hand and certified diver on a dive boat in Friday Harbor. She just might have more common navigation sense than some of the officers!
Moonfish is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-26-2019, 11:06 AM   #10
Member
 
Wild Blue's Avatar
 
City: Morro Bay-Los Osos, CA
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Wild Blue
Vessel Model: Selene 53
Join Date: Mar 2012
Posts: 20
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ski in NC View Post
Well, I read the whole Propublica report. Wow.

This will probably get me in hot water on some levels, but one thing I noticed was that at the time of the collision, the officers in charge were women. OOD on bridge (appointed to operate the ship while capt slept), officer in charge of the combat center (where radar is, and traffic tracked) and officer in charge of the visual lookout. Some very young and inexperienced. Helm operated by a woman with 25 minutes (??) of experience on this actual helm.

Sounds sexist, but I have run boats with women on the crew, and my girl is often at our helm. My girl is smarter than I am on many levels, but one thing she is not good at is navigating at night and keeping a mental image of important nearby targets. The other women I crewed with were similar. They could do it, but it was not natural to them. I'm sure there are women out there that are natural excellent navigators, but I have not run into them.

And nobody stationed on stbd side as a visual lookout? Officer in charge of the lookout, her and her trainee were both on port side mostly occupied with some sort of training??

Ok, short manning. But you have what, 270 souls on board and you can't get someone out of a bunk for a stbd side lookout?

And no one seemed to be comparing radar echos to visual targets. That is a primary way of getting confidence in your radar. See something visually at say 2000yds and then check the screen. If it is not on the screen, then radar can't be trusted.
IMO this may have been an ego problem, but not a woman problem. Reading carefully, it was a less senior woman on the bridge that voiced her observation to the woman officer in charge that a collision was probable, in plenty of time to stop or course correct.
__________________
Alex http://www.mvWildBlue.com
Wild Blue is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-26-2019, 11:30 AM   #11
Senior Member
 
Action's Avatar
 
City: Phoenix, AZ
Country: USA
Vessel Name: Enigma
Vessel Model: 1997 Wellcraft Excel 26 SE
Join Date: Mar 2015
Posts: 134
Training and experience!


If the training is read this book and there is a test. Upon successful completion of the test you get the "keys" to the boat ..... is a flawed concept. Especially on a vessel that is over 500 feet in length and displaces 9000 tons. Based on how the collision unfolded, the officers operating the Fitzgerald performed like they were out on their first boat ride in a 15' cuddy, not a 9000 ton steel war ship.


I hardly think that they were trained that way.


https://www.navytimes.com/news/your-...court-martial/
__________________
>>>>>>>>>>>Action
Action is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-26-2019, 02:54 PM   #12
Guru
 
AlaskaProf's Avatar
 
City: Tacoma, WA & Ashland, OR
Country: US of A
Vessel Name: SEEADLER
Vessel Model: RAWSON 41
Join Date: Jun 2016
Posts: 784
Quote:
Originally Posted by Action View Post
Good question. There wasn't a picture of the gf or the dude. There was a picture of the ferry stuck just off shore. No where near the dock, just a bunch of trees at the nearest shore.

I believe all of the passengers were removed from the ferry and it was dragged off of the grounding at high tide. There was some hull damage. No holing.

Washingtonians have a morbid fascination with their ferry system and its occasional frap-ups, but this one was the all-time prize winner. My recollection differs, but I think if one cared enough to check the Seattle Times archive, he'd find it pretty close to accurate:


The Elwha notified no one of the event until they arrived at Friday Harbor, with a pronounced list and pumping furiously. The FHFD turned out several pieces of pumping equipment to keep the vessel afloat.



Both of them being "of a certain age", there was no suggestion that they were engaged in inappropriate activity, other than her illegal presence on the bridge. The captain asked the lady if she'd like to take a little tour to pass by her house and see what it looks like from the waterside. The woman, who lived in a place known as Grindstone Harbor for a good reason, declined, but the captain insisted, and as might be guessed, found the Grindstone, definitely holing the vessel significantly.


His actions remain completely inexplicable, the "harbor" is a little cove, maybe a couple acres, much silted and the well-charted "stone" blocks much of the entrance--I have over-nighted there in a 27 foot boat; felt no desire to do so in my current 41-footer. Most unlikely that a depth sounder would have penetrated the overweening brainfart that had to be going on.



Several days later, the "Mystery Woman" held a rollicking press conference at which she declared she was tired of being villified as "The Siren of the San Juans," and had she been aware that her presence on the bridge was illegal, she certainly would not have been there. She, quite credibly stated that she told the captain that she knew exactly what her house looked like and didn't think this ill-advised excursion would add any useful knowledge.


BTW: The road on the west side of Grindstone Harbor is now officially Elwha Rock Road.
__________________

AlaskaProf is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off





All times are GMT -5. The time now is 03:18 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0
Copyright 2006 - 2012