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Old 09-15-2010, 12:44 PM   #21
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RE: First post, and yet another "what boat" post

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timjet wrote:

I'm going to through my 2 cents worth in here because I was in a similar situation a few months ago. I just sold my sailboat and came to the good folks here to get advice on a trawler/motor yacht. I found this forum to be the friendliest and most helpful of the several I frequent.

I first started looking at the mid 80's Asian built trawler displacement hull boats as there were many in my area of SW Florida, and they were in my price range of 50 - 75k. Someone also suggested the Bayliner 38's of the same vintage. After sailing for 20 odd years I didn't want something fast, I wanted economy. What I discovered after looking at perhaps 20 boats is that most were in need of significant cosmetic repair and some were downright horrible. I also found that most had not been used in some time and that added to their worn look. After looking at a 40 Mainship that had been neglected for some time my wife was about to give up until the listing broker suggested we look at a late 90's 34 Mainship, suggesting that the newer boats being computer designed have more room for their size compared to the older generation of boats. Though these newer boats cost more, the broker mentioned that by the time you spend the money to get the older boat up to speed you may very well be close to the cost of the newer ones. Well that's all it took, my wife was sold and we started looking at a completely different type boat. All these newer boats were fast boats something I did not really want to consider because of the economy. However I soon realized that the most important aspect of choosing a boat is having the wife's approval, so out went the economy and in came speed and lots of horse power.

We finally settled on a Carver that get's 1 mpg and my wife is thrilled. Not what I thought I wanted, but like several have said before, once you get a taste for speed, you'll never go back. Cruising at 20 kts opens up a lot more options in terms of cruising areas that just don't exist at 8 kts.
But it's not just as simple as that, there are other considerations when choosing a fast boat over a slo boat. My Carver has 660 HP between it's 2 diesel engines and they can be temperamental. They ain't cheap to fix either, just paid $1150 to have a raw water pump replaced on my port engine. Throw in the tubo charger and after cooler and it gets complicated, nothing like the normally aspirated Lehmans and Perkins installed on many of the true Trawlers.
I would never consider purposely motoring in seas of 4 ft. This is not the place for a planning hull, so a fast boat is a coastal cruiser not a blue water boat. And lastly don't forget the single vs twin argument. That's always good for a heated debate.

So if economy is your thing, find a single engine boat with a simple engine and learn how to keep it running and carry the right spares. But don't listen to me, I started on a very different path kinda like you and look where I ended up. But hey, the admiral's happy and I'm kinda getting use to 20 kts. My sailboat buddies are kind of envious cause I start happy hour several hours before they do, that is until I pull up to the fuel dock.
Your post is pretty timely as after doing pretty generic searches, I have started gettign mroe specific with bayliners, carvers, etc. Liking what we see, and of course the wife is leaning towards those as well. BUT (there's always a but) are you saying that these types of boats wont get us to the bahamas, caribbean, etc? That's discouraging, as that is dfeinitely in our plans.

*
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Old 09-15-2010, 12:52 PM   #22
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RE: First post, and yet another "what boat" post

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COCG47 wrote:

The advice in this forum is great, and there have been several super responses to your post.* The SOUNDINGS article mentioned was excellent and will be helpful.* Wish I had been on this site when I bought my boat, but it probably would have given me even more to fret about as I searched.*

What we found in our search was that it was all about compromises, and I still feel that way.* I didn't get exactly what I wanted, but I'm pretty damned happy with what I got.

My budget was quite a bit tighter than what you are talking about.* I could have gone as high as you are talking, but I purposely limited myself to less than 100K.* I did this because I knew I was going to have to put money into whatever I bought, and I was also worried about being "boat poor" since I was taking out a loan.* I wanted something I could easily afford following my upcoming retirement from the military, with plenty of income to spare for maintenance, repairs and living expenses.* My friends with newer boats seem to be dumping a ton of money into theirs, so I*decided to go with a small initial outlay of funds.

My size range was 36 - 50 ft.* Like you, I was looking for something economical, and I was looking for something that I wouldn't be "roughing it" in.* We were making the jump from a Catalina 36 sailboat, and moving aboard, and I wanted to be comfortable.* What's funny in my case, was that my wife was really pushing the liveaboard thing, not me, and so comfort was more of a key for me than her.*

We found as we looked that 36 ft was too small for us.* Our kids are grown and gone, but we have them over from time to time, and we get lots of friends visiting for the weekend.* We also have a large dog and two cats.* When you have visitors, privacy is very important, so two decent cabins, fore and aft, with their own heads was key.* If we were hermits, we could have gotten away with a 36 footer.* We wanted a full walkaround queen bed, so that was a key, particularly after sleeping in sailboat Vee-berths for years.* I wanted a real shower, and not a sailboat one where the entire head was the shower.* I also wanted a decent sized saloon with galley down plus an eating area, and we found we needed to be over 40 ft for that (at least in our search).*

Now that I have it, I will tell you that our 46 footer (around 50 ft LOA) is bigger than I'd like.* It has all the interior amenities we want, but it is tough to find dockage for it, and when we do, it is expensive.* We'll eventually anchor out more, but the generator needs work, and everything is powered by AC on the boat.* This is something I will definitely change over time, and if I had really thought about it when I was searching, this would have been a factor.* I have no desire to run the generator all the time, so I'll be adding an inverter, increasing the house bank, and probably going to propane for at least the stove, and maybe the fridge.* I may also add some solar charging capability, and I'm going to improve the DC lighting.* I'll also plan on getting the heck out of Florida in the summer, so I don't need to run the A/C 24/7.* Right now I'm trying to figure out what to do with a new dinghy, and adding an extra few feet for davits is not something I want to do, but may have to.* That will make finding slips even harder.* 40 - 42 would be ideal I think.

I was very focused on fuel economy as we were coming from a sailboat background, and looked at alot of boats with smaller diesels or single diesels.* At first I said I only needed to go 8 kts.* I ended up with a boat with two CAT 3208s.* I've found that I like having the power, both to get from point A to point B, and also to get out of weather quicker.* I generally still cruise at about 7 - 9 kts*for fuel economy, but I can go 15 -*17 if I need to, or if I feel like throwing away my money.* I also like the maneuverability provided by the twin engines.* It is a breeze to dock in virtually every condition.* I have been docking ships my whole career, and am comfortable with twin and single screw, but I'm glad I went with twin screw.* Engines are an area where I'm glad I compromised.

The hull trade-off is something you need to think about.* I looked at everything from planing hulls to full displacement.* I wanted something full-displacement.* As I said, ended up with a semi-displacement hull, and I'm pretty happy with the*choice as I have learned to like the ability to go a little faster.* I'm concerned however with the fact that I have no protection for my props and rudders that*I would have with a full displacement boat.* Will just have to be careful with watching my depth, but worry about logs and flotsam in particular in inland waters.* Stability is another factor here.* My boat is definitely a coastal cruiser (which is what I'll be doing), and is actually very stable since I looked for a relatively low profile.* It wouldn't be as good in a seaway as a full displacement boat, but it beats the heck out of the newer, faster,*top-heavy boats I see around this area.* Stability is an area I thought long and hard about, and decided I wouldn't be offshore enough to need a full diplacement hull, but I still didn't want to roll.

I got a boat with a flybridge and lower helm.* I've seen lots of opinions on this on this forum, but I've found that I don't like the visibility forward from the lower helm.* I also have zero visibility aft from the lower helm, which is dangerous in a channel.* I've been in all kinds of crappy weather on the flybridge, and a decent enclosure is all you need.* Out in the ocean, I could see using the lower helm, but in coastal or inland waters, I don't like it.* I*felt I needed a lower helm during my search, but if I had it do over again, I wouldn't insist on one.

My boat is a sundeck model with no cockpit.* The topside living space is phenomenal with a wonderful sundeck, a huge flybridge, and a correspondlingly large aft cabin and saloon.* Two things I don't like with this setup - 1.* I can't see anything when backing down into a slip, which is made more difficult by the Admiral's trouble with port and starboard as she is acting as my eyes aft; and 2.* line handling and getting on and off the boat at anchor (especially with the dog) are a bear.* If I had to do it over again, I would like a cockpit aft.* I would lose interior living space, but it would be worth it.

Last item - Get a boat with wide side decks and good railings for safety, with plenty of handholds inside and out.* This was a must for us, and I'm glad we did it.

As far as condition goes, that all depends on how much work you are willing to do and how much money you want to drop.* Mine needs alot of work, and I'm slowly working through it.* It would be much easier if I didn't live on it, and it would also help if I didn't have to go to work every day.* Whatever the boat needs*has to be figured into your budget - both time and money.* In the first month, I dropped 10K replacing every hose and*belt, exhaust mixers, flushing engines and heat exchangers, replacing engine mounts and realigning the engines, and other mechanical things.* I still need to do*work on the plumbing and the wiring, fix or replace the GENSET, paint the bottom, pull and straighten a slightly bent rudder, fix some window leaks, repair damage to some of the gelcoat, properly bed the hardware on the foredeck, replace some seacocks, replace the aft fuel tanks, and assorted and sundry other more minor repairs.* After I've done all that, I have some work to do on interior woodwork that was damaged by water leaks, complete topside cosmetic work, and upgrade the electronics to something from this century.* Sounds daunting, but it's all good.* I like doing the work, and I got the boat for less than 50 percent of market value.

I saw on an earlier post that someone recommended making a list with pros/cons to help decide which way to go on different features.* I think this is a good idea and my wife and I did it mentally, and discussed every one.* I also recommend you talk to people at marinas, and if you could afford to charter a trawler, do that to determine what you want and need.

Hope this helps.

Glenn
M/V SYREN
Jefferson 46
Wow, it sounds like you and I have much of the same criteria. I think you just descrbed my perfect boat from what you got to what you would do to have it all over again. very helpful...thank you!

*

Josh
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Old 09-15-2010, 02:43 PM   #23
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RE: First post, and yet another "what boat" post

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Egregious wrote:

Here's a good article on the subject:
http://www.soundingsonline.com/featu...e-trawler-code

This article also speaks to the issue of speed, and how some people may say they don't care how slow they go but most would like to go faster.

The print magazine actually had a "decision tree" which led you through all the options: twin/single, keel/shallow draft, galley up/down, etc.* I'll see if I can find it.
Finally got around to that article. Good info. Thanks!
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Old 09-15-2010, 09:16 PM   #24
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RE: First post, and yet another "what boat" post

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syf350 wrote:
Your post is pretty timely as after doing pretty generic searches, I have started gettign mroe specific with bayliners, carvers, etc. Liking what we see, and of course the wife is leaning towards those as well. BUT (there's always a but) are you saying that these types of boats wont get us to the bahamas, caribbean, etc? That's discouraging, as that is dfeinitely in our plans.
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Josh,
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The previous owner of my Carver had the boat in the Bahamas I believe a couple of times. The newer Carvers, Cruisers, Mainships, and Sea Rays with a planning hull are not designed to take long blue water cruises. The Bahamas from West Palm Beach is a short 49 miles I believe and I can do it in under 3 hours. Lots of folks in these types of boats do. Weather forecasting over a 3 day period has gotten pretty accurate and you can with a lot of assurance pick a weather window to avoid conditions that would task you and your boat regardless of the hull form.*However if your plans include places that will require long routine voyages, these are not the boats to consider.
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Another possible thought is a semi-displacement hull that will plane, but does a better job handling when the seas pick up. I looked at the Mainship 35/39 and though they were out of my price range, perhaps they would be a good fit for you. These boats came in both single and twins and many are powered by the very reliable Yanmar diesels. Many for sale here in SW Florida. Perhaps John Baker will chime in on this as I think he has more knowledge on these boats than I.
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One thing to consider when thinking of fuel economy: As Marin mentioned in a previous post, the cost of fuel regardless of how fast you go generally is small when compared to the total cost of boat ownership. If I use my 1 mpg Carver 100 hrs a year the cost of fuel will just about equal the cost of the annual slip fee.
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And unless you just like fixing up a boat, newer is better. Better design, better more modern materials, better resale, better everything. For example of a better design, I love the stairs leading from the swim platform to the sundeck not the ladder arrangement on the older sundecks. It's what sold my wife.*A newer boat will probably cost you less in the long run anyway. In your price range you have a lot of flexibility so take your time and do it right. And I agree with some of the previous posts, do not get too big a boat. Harder to handle in close quarters and harder to find dockage. Better to spend the saved money on a newer boat or nice dink, or lift system to stow it.
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Old 09-16-2010, 06:21 AM   #25
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RE: First post, and yet another "what boat" post

Tim

There are hundreds of planing hulls that make long offshore runs every day into large seas. Such as big outboards like the Yellowfin or inboards like the Viking or Bertram. But these are not designed as family boats suffering from lots of windage and a high CG so are "considered" more seaworthy. This past June I was stuck in Port Hardy in my trawler with several other boats waiting for the weather to subside so I could round Cape Caution. Two 24 foot sport fishing boats took off into 3 meter swells and 25 knot winds and made it just fine to Duncaby where they were working. Wet, yes, unsafe no.
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Old 09-16-2010, 10:41 AM   #26
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RE: First post, and yet another "what boat" post

I assume semi-displacement is like Mainship's 430 "fast trawler"?
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Old 09-16-2010, 06:35 PM   #27
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RE: First post, and yet another "what boat" post

We have a Mainship 390 and it handles 4-5" seas very well as long as they are on the bow.* A following sea is a completely diffrent story as the waves can build up under the molded in swim platform and really push you around.* they're built pretty well and you get a lot of boat for the money.
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Old 09-16-2010, 08:13 PM   #28
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RE: First post, and yet another "what boat" post

Our lobster boat also handles four foot seas with no discomfort. In fact she handles it best at full cruise of fifteen knots. But, given calmer waters, she likes to put along at about eight knots. The best of both worlds.
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Old 09-17-2010, 08:38 AM   #29
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RE: First post, and yet another "what boat" post

"Seas" is a very subjective term. My boat could handle 200ft seas as long as the period was about 5 minutes apart. And the "seas" we get in Galveston bay are sometimes BRUTAL and they are only 2-3 feet...straight vertical and about 2 seconds apart.

IOW, not all "seas" are created equally.

NOW, a Carver will make it just fine to the Bahamas or anywhere a "trawler" can take you as long as you consider weather and fuel. Like all boats, you do not want to be in conditions that challenge the structural integrity of the boat. If you are at that extreme, you are in SERIOUS trouble and your nerves are likely more fragile than the boat....IOW, the boat can handle more than you can....even a Carver. I get a little irritated when people refer to Carvers as somehow inferior boats. They are still built well enough to outlast most crew!!!!
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Old 09-17-2010, 10:35 AM   #30
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RE: First post, and yet another "what boat" post

John*Right you are. I should have specified *a four foot chop, which is very close and steep. Four foot swells obviously offer no concern to anyone. Building on handling in these seas, I might add for our newbie the difference in ride between a planing hull and a semi-displacement hull like mine is significant. Where a planing hull will pound in heavy seas, the semi-displacement hull cuts through it with little if any pounding. My point being that if you might like to cruise at fifteen knots in most weather, I would recommend the semi-displacement hull.
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Old 09-17-2010, 10:38 AM   #31
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RE: First post, and yet another "what boat" post

Agreed Carey ref semi comment. We could add that due to you going "though" the weather instead of bounding over it, it can be a wet ride in certain wind conditions(ie cross wind).
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Old 09-17-2010, 11:00 AM   #32
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RE: First post, and yet another "what boat" post

so what brands, models, are semi-displacement? or what's the easy way to tell?

I assume the carvers, and bayliners are planing hulls?
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Old 09-17-2010, 11:11 AM   #33
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First post, and yet another "what boat" post

Almost all "trawlers" are semi-displacement. I don't know about Bayliners but I would bet they are more of a planing hull. And yes, Carvers, Sea Rays and such would be planing. Not all hulls are created equally. We could go on and on about this. Are you looking for a boat that can do some speed???

The reason why manufacturers build semi hulls and then "Under" power them to go displacement speeds is initial stability. *The added flotation laterally causes the boat to resist roll...initially. *IOW, when you step aboard while the boat is at rest, it will resist rolling whereas a full displacement boat will be a bit more tender because there is no dynamic force resisting the roll. *Another reason manufacturers do this is interior space...it allows them to carry volume pretty much full beam from the waterline down to the chine.....whereas a full d hull would be continuously tapering below the water line....


-- Edited by Baker on Friday 17th of September 2010 11:19:19 AM

-- Edited by Baker on Friday 17th of September 2010 11:21:49 AM
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Old 09-17-2010, 11:15 AM   #34
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First post, and yet another "what boat" post

I didnt think speed was going to be all that important, but have also read that plenty of people think that and then get very used to it once they have it. so, maybe?

I thought trawlers were full displacement? Semi-displacement means that it can get up on somewhat of a plane, correct?

A lot of stuff going on in the water world!





-- Edited by syf350 on Friday 17th of September 2010 11:16:27 AM
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Old 09-17-2010, 11:20 AM   #35
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RE: First post, and yet another "what boat" post

I edited my above post and added more so read above my edited portion. Also I will go look for a discussion Marin and I had ref hullshape....
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Old 09-17-2010, 11:33 AM   #36
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RE: First post, and yet another "what boat" post

Here you go....

http://www.trawlerforum.com/forum.sp...rt=oldestFirst
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Old 09-17-2010, 12:45 PM   #37
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RE: First post, and yet another "what boat" post

good read.....but your making my head explode
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Old 09-18-2010, 06:11 PM   #38
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RE: First post, and yet another "what boat" post

JohnI'm not sure what makes a wet boat, but yes, we can get spray across the windshield, mostly generated by wind blowing the water thrown out from the bow. In that sense, I would say it can be a wet ride. The bow rides so high at cruise, that the initial ride is very dry. At rest or slow cruise, the bow is six feet off the water. At speed it is closer to nine feet off. So, she is not a wet boat unless the wind is blowing across the beam.
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Old 09-18-2010, 06:14 PM   #39
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RE: First post, and yet another "what boat" post

JohnI'm not sure what makes a wet boat, but yes, we can get spray across the windshield, mostly generated by wind blowing the water thrown out from the bow. In that sense, I would say it can be a wet ride. The bow rides so high at cruise, that the initial ride is very dry. At rest or slow cruise, the bow is six feet off the water. At speed it is closer to nine feet off. So, she is not a wet boat unless the wind is blowing across the beam.
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Old 09-18-2010, 08:44 PM   #40
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RE: First post, and yet another "what boat" post

John, Carey,It's the water. Spray rails reduce wetted surface but many of them break up the bow wave into fine spray that the wind easily blows around. My boat has no spray rail and I'd call it better than average on the wet question and I'm sure much of that is due to it's slow fwd progress (6.15 knots). Good thing as I don't have enough power to raise the bow much more than 2". But the bow starts out quite high. But * *...like the beer * *..it's the water.
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