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Old 08-25-2010, 10:09 PM   #1
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First Cruise

Well folks after 3 months of every weekend working on our "new" old boat a 35 Carver we took her out last weekend. It did not go exactly as planned.

I've done a lot to this boat which was generally in good condition when we bought her, but I wanted her just right and she did need some upgrading. My biggest issue which I thought was fixed was the fuel. The boat had not been used in 2 years before we bought her and the fuel had turned to gunk. Prior to purchase the fuel in the aux tank had been polished and a successful sea trial was done. We added 50 gallons to the aux tank and figured it had about 75 gallons in it when we started. Since the purchase I emptied the saddle tanks as best I could by using the fuel transfer pump and pumping through the fuel sending unit hole. So when we went out last weekend we felt we had a pretty sea worthy boat.

I live in Tampa but have the boat in Charlotte Harbor about a 2 hour drive south. The weekend was forecast to have rain with a good chance of T storms but in SW Florida that's a common forecast for 5 months of the year. We arrived at the boat early Saturday with the plan to practice docking her for a couple of hours before heading out. Marin's suggestion of using the shift levers as if your guiding your hips was a great one and came in very handy. After two hours of practice, a few mis-steps here and there, the admiral and I got the hang of it.
The plan was to motor about 25 miles to get fuel in the saddle tanks, and then motor an additional 25 miles to a marina where we would spend the night and either return the next day or stay until Monday.
It was however too late to go so we decided to wait until Sunday and since we didn't have to be back until Tuesday nothing would be lost in waiting a day.
We did take the extra time we now had on Saturday to take the boat to an open area and get her up on plane to get the feel of it and get some rpm vs speed figures so I could along with the engine manufactures fuel burn charts get some idea of mpg.

We did a few more practice sessions Sunday and headed out about noon for a 3 hour cruise, I thought. Getting out to Charlotte Harbor requires us to go through a self operated lock which we had difficulty figuring out. A boater in a bow rider was very helpful and we got in the lock. However when we got the gates open to go out a guy in a 30' cabin cruiser was blocking my way. I waited for 2 minutes or so and finally yelled at him that we couldn't leave until he gave us room. He finally moved and when we got a third of the way through, the gate started to close.* The gate hit the hull but did not prevent us from sliding through. I noticed about 6 boats waiting on the other side and determined someone with a remote control had closed the gate. I can't believe someone would do this. Later inspection did not show any damage.*

We got out into open water, got her up on plane and were happily cruising at 1800 rpms and about 12.5 knots. The new bridge canvas keeping us dry and warm from the occasional light rain showers. Everything was perfect for 30 minutes or so until the right engine rpm started fluctuating between 1600-1800 rpm. That lasted about a minute then the left engine did the same and finally after about another minute I could not get more than 1000 rpm out of either one of them. The only thing common to both engines is fuel and with fuel feeding both engines from the same tank, and the history, I come to the real quick conclusion that the racors were clogged. I got the admiral to steer the boat into the wind, shut the port down and went to take care of things.

Now anyone that's been around these "fast" boats, Carver's, Sea Rays, Cruisers, and recent Mainships, knows that the engine room was built to accommodate the engines only, not a person. So squeezing myself down into the "hole" I changed the port racor and noticed in doing so, much particulate matter floating around in the bowl. Stupidly I forgot to fill my gallon diesel can with diesel, so I tried using the racor drain to fill the can with enough fuel to refill the racor bowl. That didn't work. I reassembled everything and just about that time the stbd engine quit. So quick like a bunny I ran up topsides and set the anchor. That kept the boat from turning broadsides to the waves though they were only 2-3 feet, but enough to get queasy in a hot engine room. Back down to the hole I went and changed the stbd racor noticing again particulate matter in the bowl. Trying to start the engine did no good with the racor bowl half empty of fuel, so I started pumping the manual bleed pump. I pumped and pumped and pumped and finally after about 15 minutes and with no feeling left in my thumb we got the port engine started. Taking a 5 minute break the procedure was repeated until the stbd engine started.

With the engines started we had to take a minute an assess our situation. The marina we had intended to refuel was now closed but only 4 miles away and we did not have the fuel to return home. There were no other closer marinas to get fuel and I was not aware of nearby anchorages which would have done us no good because we needed fuel. I had never been to the marina we intended to refuel at and did not know the lay out or even if they had transient dockage. My biggest concern however was the engines. I didn't know how long they would stay running and if I attempted to traverse the channel leading to the marina and the engines quit, well ....... Another concern was if I did loose an engine, I had no confidence I could dock the boat on one engine. Much to think about. So remembering I reluctantly bought Boat US tow insurance I decided to ask for some advice. I called the local guy on the radio and he said the marina had several T docks that he thought we could use. Since no one was there, there would be no one to chase us off and under the circumstances he felt that would be the prudent thing to do. I agreed and he said he would keep a listening watch on the radio if we needed further assistance. So we proceeded ahead at idle rpm and after 45 minutes were docked with no further adventures.

Needless to say I was a bit rattled, this being our first time out on the boat, but after a few stiff gin and tonics, the world was right again. Surprisingly the admiral was enjoying this adventure and with the electrical hooked up, the air on and the gentle rain outside, we were quite content.

The next day dawned pretty much the same as the previous with mostly light rain with the occasional heavy rain. The new plan was to return home of course but with new fuel in the saddle tanks. With only 3 racor elements left I didn't want to start out without additional elements, so fortunately the marina was able to order 4 more to arrive at 1pm. We got the elements, refueled, re-watered and pumped the holding tanks. I switched tanks and replaced the racors. Off we go. Again everything is fine for 30 minutes cruising now at 2100 rpm's and 17 kts. This time the stbd engine would not hold above 1800, so again I changed the racor remembering to fill my diesel can. I also changed my other primary filter thinking that maybe it was partially clogged. I have multi-stage filtration ie, each engine has 2 primaries the racor being one and the secondary on the engine. We got up on plane again but after a short while were able to only get about 1900 rpm out of the engines, enough to get home in a reasonable amount of time.

I'll be back at the boat next weekend trying to figure out my fuel problem.*

Tim
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Old 08-25-2010, 10:29 PM   #2
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RE: First Cruise

It sounds like you need to have your saddle tanks (and maybe the day tank, too) pumped dry and then thoroughly cleaned. Just pumping the old fuel out won't do it in most cases. An amazing amount of sediment, water, and crud can end up in the bottom of a tank and bouncing the boat around sitrs it up and it gets pulled into the filters (but hopefully not the engines). The only way to get this crud out is to drain the tanks, open the inspection ports, and suck/wash/mop the crud out.

The ideal setup is to have the tanks feed/drain from their lowest points as this pulls everything out into the filters all the time and stuff doesn't just sit in the bottoms of the tanks. But many if not most boats don't have tanks like this (we do fortunately, thanks to the previous owner).

But other than the fuel issue it sounds like your boat performs as advertised. The important thing is that despite the fuel problem you seem to have had a good time. You do need to hunt up the fellow who activated the lock gate on you, however, and introduce him to the bottom of the lock.
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Old 08-26-2010, 06:29 AM   #3
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RE: First Cruise

"I'll be back at the boat next weekend trying to figure out my fuel problem."

Marin hit it. You'll have to get in there and REALLY clean out your tanks. Just adding fresh fuel probably won't get it. I've*cleaned several and I'm always amazed at the amount of crud is in there.
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Old 08-26-2010, 08:55 AM   #4
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First Cruise

Quote:
Marin wrote:

You do need to hunt up the fellow who activated the lock gate on you, however, and introduce him to the bottom of the lock.
Another good reason not to carry a gun aboard. I might actually use it!


-- Edited by timjet on Thursday 26th of August 2010 09:48:49 AM
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Old 08-26-2010, 09:07 AM   #5
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RE: First Cruise

Quote:
Anode wrote:

"I'll be back at the boat next weekend trying to figure out my fuel problem."

Marin hit it. You'll have to get in there and REALLY clean out your tanks. Just adding fresh fuel probably won't get it. I've*cleaned several and I'm always amazed at the amount of crud is in there.
I'm giving some thought on how to do this. I had cleaned out the saddle tanks as best I could before I refueled which simply consisted of attaching a pump to a tube and using the fuel sending unit hole to suck out as much as I could. That obviously didn't hack it. As far as I know there are no access holes in the tank, the fuel sending unit hole is the only way to see in and it's what maybe 2.5" in dia.
Two thoughts:
<ul>[*]Rent a fuel polishing unit and spend the better part of a day polishing fuel until the filters are clean. Not sure where to rent one though.[*]Use my two racors on the boat and plumb them together in series with the tank feed line to the inlet of racor one and the outlet of racor two back into the tank. Perhaps a 30 micron element in the lead racor and a 5 mic on the second.[/list]I'm open to suggestions.


Tim

*
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Old 08-26-2010, 09:25 AM   #6
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RE: First Cruise

*
If you have the fuel filters all you need to added is a fuel pump and some hose.* I convert our fuel filter system to include a fuel polishing.* Send me an email with your address and I will email a diagram.


*
Also might want to have double filters with a vacuum gauge so you can see if the filter is getting dirty, then change over to the clean filter, and change the old filter out. Again many boats have the double filters with vacuum gauge.


*
I would not pay someone else when you can spend the money improving what you have **********
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Old 08-26-2010, 09:42 AM   #7
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RE: First Cruise

Oh, I forgot.* *I bought the big double 180 gallon Racor so if there is a fuel problem the filters are big enough to handle it.* The DD 671 draws about 60 gallons per hour and returns about 55 gallons/hour, so the fuel is being clean/polished.** You couldrun the vacumm gauge up to the helm, and/ormove the filter for easier access?


*
You should only be running on one filter at a time, not both filters?***

Aren't locks fun!* That is one thing we do not miss!
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Old 08-26-2010, 09:56 AM   #8
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First Cruise

Quote:
Phil Fill wrote:

*
*


If you have the fuel filters all you need to added is a fuel pump and some hose.I convert our fuel filter system to include a fuel polishing.Send me an email with your address and I will email a diagram.
*


Also might want to have double filters with a vacuum gauge so you can see if the filter is getting dirty, then change over to the clean filter, and change the old filter out. Again many boats have the double filters with vacuum gauge.
*


I would not pay someone else when you can spend the money improving what you have

*
Phil,

I'm considering using the two racor's I have and polishing the fuel myself. I bought a jabsco oil change pump which I haven't installed yet and could use it to suck fuel through the racors.


I have vacuum guages on both racors and they did show in the red. However I noticed the port side gauge was not working on the last element change, probably got clogged with all the crud going through. I'll take my compressor down to the boat this weekend and clear the gauge out.


I really don't have the room in the ER for double filters like you suggest.


My e-mail: timjet101@verizon.net
any help is appreciated.

*



-- Edited by timjet on Thursday 26th of August 2010 09:57:31 AM
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Old 08-26-2010, 11:31 AM   #9
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RE: First Cruise

Tim
You know you have a fuel tank problem. Now you need to decide what action to take to resolve it.
1. If you can get the tanks open with access plates, you need to remove the fuel and have the inside thoroughly cleaned.
2. If you cant get inside the tanks, then try using STARTRON for diesel, which alleges to use a biological solution to eating up the crap that grows in old diesel.
3. You are on the right track when you considered changing your filtration system to be more of a multi-stage approach. Go read what Tony Athens has written about multi-stage filtration. Here is a very good article about fuel filtration....and why those with a single 2 micron filter as primary are running an inefficient filtration system. The author explains why MULTI-STAGE filtration should always be used instead.
http://tinyurl.com/3aylko3
4. The suggestion to add vacuum gauges is a good one. I have them on my own multi-stage fuel filtration and I watch them via a wireless network camera that connects to my fly bridge laptop PC. See a snapshot here.
http://tinyurl.com/ldr4zq

5. Purchase a case or so of Racor filter cartridges. I have WAY MORE cartridges than one might think is needed but I would surely rather have more than enough.
6. Add a stub to your fuel line near the filters that ends with a plug. If you need to fill your jug to be able to pour into the Racors, simply open the plugged stub and drain some fuel into your jug.

I run my fuel through three primary filters BEFORE it gets to the secondary on-engine filter. I have three Racor 500s with cartridges of 30-10-2 micron. A larger filter body would be better but I had the 500s and got two more so cheap I stayed with it. Plus my engine is a Lehman 120 and only draws 3 gph, so the Racor is fine for that application. And I have a seperate Racor 500 to feed the genset. So in my filter system, they are all Racor 500 and I can use any cartridge in any filter. That makes it a simple system to stock spares.


R.
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Old 08-26-2010, 11:35 AM   #10
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First Cruise

Given the time your boat sat I would doubt that polishing the fuel is going to solve the root cause of your problem, which is the "stuff" that's accumulated at the bottom of the tanks. Polishing the fuel will get you clean fuel (maybe) but the moment you start bouncing the boat around on a rough day that sediment that's still on the bottom is going to start getting stirred up and you'll be back where you are now.

At this point I think a better choice if you're going to spend money is to have proper inspection ports put in the tanks if it's possible to do this given the tank configuration and space on your boat.

If proper inspection ports are not an option, which means proper tank cleaning is not an option, then the only choice I can see at this point is to clean the fuel, either professionally or yourself if you have an effective filter and pump setup, and carry a LOT of fuel filter elements and be prepared to change them frequently if the waves kick up.

Or......... re-tank the boat and be done with the whole issue

Ralph's suggestion of multiple fuel filters is worth heeding.* if you want to get really fancy and make filter element changing underway easier---* if you have the space--- you can set up a parallel filter system for each engine. * This is a very common setup on commercial fishboats, most of which are single-engine.

This seteup has a pair of filters plumbed in parallel with valves that select which one is actually feeding the engine.* So you run on one and when it starts to clog up you change the valves so the fuel goes through the other one while you change the clogged element in the isloated filter.* Then when the element in the second filter starts to clog up you change the valves back and run on the clean filter while you change the dirty one.* The advantage of this is that you never have to shut the engine down.* The disadvantage is that you have to fork over the money for two filters instead of one and you need the space to install them and the plumbing and valves.

Vacuum gauges for the primary filters is a good idea, too, particularly in your situation where you have dirty tanks and relatively powerful engines.* The fancy way is to install the gauge at the helm and run a hose to a connection in the fuel line AFTER the primary filter.* The easy way (if you have Racors) is to install Racor's vacuum gauge that replaces the T-handle on top of the filter.* The advantage of Racor's filter-mounted gauge is that it's dead simple to install.* The disadvantage is that you have to go to the filter location to read the gauge.

We have Racor's gauges on the primary Racor 500s for our two FL120s.* The FL120 uses so little fuel that the gauge reads zero even at cruise rpm which is what other GB owners with these engines and gauges report.* However these other owners tell me that if an element should start to clog the vacuum gauge will indicate this is happening.* Of course I have to drop down into the engine room to read the gauges but on our boat that's actually very easy and quick.




-- Edited by Marin on Thursday 26th of August 2010 11:56:17 AM
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Old 08-26-2010, 11:45 AM   #11
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RE: First Cruise

One final thought:
Use a BAJA filter when you fuel up. At least use it to filter the first 20-30 gallons or so until you get confidence that you are getting good clean fuel from your purchase.
Always purchase fuel from places that are selling high volumes of fuel so you know its clean and fresh. You dont want to purchase someone else's old fuel.
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Old 08-26-2010, 02:31 PM   #12
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RE: First Cruise

*
I forgot, forgot!* So what is the stuff clogging the filters, algae, tarring, rust, water?


*
I would not fill up with new fuel until you get the fuel problem resolved, so if you do have to clean/polish the fuel and/or open the tank there is not so much fuel to deal with.


*
We have a walk around stand up engine room, with a tool bench, and storage for engine room stuff, so checking/fixing stuff is not a big deal! **I tend to forget what its like standing on your head to work on an engine?

i sent you the diagram and my phone number.
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Old 08-28-2010, 08:19 PM   #13
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RE: First Cruise

Phil,Thanks, I got your e-mail but wanted to reply on this forum.
The gunk in the tanks is most probably algae and or bio growth. The boat sat for 2 year without use and the fuel is probably older than that. I pumped out as much as possible but obviously did a poor job because when I refilled my saddle tanks I quickly clogged my filters.


I will set up a fuel polishing system using my existing racors if necessary. I want to first try and rent a unit if possible. Anyone know if this is possible? If I'm unable then I plan on using a new jabsco oil change pump I just purchased but haven't installed to suck fuel through the racors. Does this set up sound reasonable?


The situation right now is my saddle tanks are nearly full, about 85 gallons. The center/aux tank has about 35 gallons and if I can rent a fuel polisher, will polish this fuel too otherwise will remove it. Once I burn down the saddle tanks to about 35 gallons and the aux tank to about 10 gal, I will transfer all the fuel from the saddle tanks (about 70 gal) to the now empty or nearly empty aux tank.
I will then haul the boat and have the yard set the boat slightly bow high and with a slight stbd list. This will force the remaining fuel in the tanks aft and stbd directly above the fuel sending unit hole. I'll then remove and discard the remaining fuel in all the tanks. I think this will clean the tanks as much as possible without cutting them open.


Suggestions??
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Old 08-28-2010, 08:21 PM   #14
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RE: First Cruise

Quote:
Phil Fill wrote:
We have a walk around stand up engine room, with a tool bench, and storage for engine room stuff, so checking/fixing stuff is not a big deal! I tend to forget what its like standing on your head to work on an engine?
*
And you must of forgot about the mirror too. I've got 3 of various sizes!

*
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Old 08-28-2010, 08:52 PM   #15
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RE: First Cruise

Quote:
ralphyost wrote:

One final thought:
Use a BAJA filter when you fuel up. At least use it to filter the first 20-30 gallons or so until you get confidence that you are getting good clean fuel from your purchase.
Good idea. It never*occurred*to me to filter the fuel before it's pumped into the tank. However check this out:*http://www.practical-sailor.com/sample/Fuelfilter.html

*
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Old 08-29-2010, 06:03 AM   #16
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RE: First Cruise

If you attempt "fuel polishing" remember the the pump is installed backwards.

The pump should suck thry the filter , not push the fuel thru the filter.

Even tho pumps push far better than they suck the pump will grind the fuel and water together , creating an emulsion that is really hard to filter.

Also do not use fuel majic in a can as many are just emulsifiers (that DO work when the water content is minor ) but do not work with major water.

What does the outside of the filter look like?

If its all black grunge its ashphlating , the ancient fuel returning to its lumpy state.

No sweat to filter , just time .

If the outside looks like snot , sticky and gooey its bugs.

You MUSTY get rid of ALL the water in the tank to have a chance at killing the bugs.

Bottom drain works best.

The downfall of any polishing system is much of the gunk will stick , quite thickly to the tank sidewalls and bottom.

So when you next bounce , more is released inti the fuel.

Cure , aftermarket inspection plate , putty knife (stick actually) or power wash and vaccume to dry.

Have fun,
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Old 08-29-2010, 07:45 AM   #17
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RE: First Cruise

FF,
The racor elements look brown when removed. Nothing sticky. I did notice black flacks in the racor when I changed the elements last time.

I haven't seen any water in the racor bowl. I would assume I would see it there if there was an appreciable amount.

I'm trying to find a place that will rent me a fuel polisher. Any ideas??
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Old 08-29-2010, 08:31 AM   #18
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RE: First Cruise

Also check out the Valvtect retailer nearest you. At the very least they have a certification program that they inspect all of the tanks and equipment and certify it annually. I know this is only as good as the "certifier" but it does likely give another layer of comfort. They fuel is also pretreated with biocides and stabilizers so you don't have to mess with that. They still have to compete so I have found that they are no more expensive than the others....and in some cases less.
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Old 08-29-2010, 09:27 AM   #19
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RE: First Cruise

My above post was for the next tie you buy fuel. But as far as polishing goes now.... I know around our neck of the woods we have services that will polish fuel for a fee. Those same services will also clean tanks and even install inspection ports in them. For polishing, it is a couple hundred bucks. Obviously inspection ports are more involved and would be case by case. I would assume you would have these types of services in your area of Florida or nearby.


Also, I am talking outta my ass here(I do that a lot), but you may find it difficult to find somebody that would rent you the equipment. There is just way too much liability involved if you spill. You can murder somebody and get probation....but if you spill so much as a drop of diesel, you will make the front page of the USA Today(McNews) be tarred and feathered and we will never hear from you again!!!
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Old 08-29-2010, 09:41 AM   #20
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RE: First Cruise

John,

Is there a Valvtect additive that can be added to the present fuel?
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