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Old 08-10-2016, 09:21 AM   #21
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Originally Posted by ksanders View Post

Within the US states, it is my opinion that you would not run into trouble carrying whatever you want while on your boat.
In New York State non-residents are not allowed to possess hand guns. A resident must have a permit. In Michigan you must have a CCL to have a loaded hand gun in a conveyance, which is what a boat is considered to be.

Also, "assault" rifles are illegal in many Loop states including NY, NJ, MD, CT, IL, and MA.

Oh, and a law enforcement officer can board and search your boat at any time without a probable cause.
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Old 08-10-2016, 09:29 AM   #22
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Thinking about going to the Great Lakes next year and am looking for any info
On regs along the way.
You should study gun laws of each state you will be visiting.
This site, for example: https://www.nraila.org/gun-laws/state-gun-laws/
Since it is hard to avoid NY and it has the most restrictive gun laws in the area, it is a good idea to start with it. Canada is a little better than New York, but not by much.
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Old 08-10-2016, 09:33 AM   #23
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Originally Posted by Lost Horizons View Post
In New York State non-residents are not allowed to possess hand guns. A resident must have a permit. In Michigan you must have a CCL to have a loaded hand gun in a conveyance, which is what a boat is considered to be.

Also, "assault" rifles are illegal in many Loop states including NY, NJ, MD, CT, and MA.

Oh, and a law enforcement officer can board and search your boat at any time without a probable cause.
Well.....theres a bit of a twist to that.

If the gun remains onboard and you are cruising, I believe there is case law that says your boat is your "domicile". It must work OK as I can't recall a "cruisers" gun story in NY in my entire life...may be out there...but very scarce info if there is.

The other is an LE officer may board and conduct no warrant searches only within their limitations...the USCG is limited to man sized spaces and safety issues (could care less about weapons other tan you saying where they are unless you have warrants), fish and game may inspect for catches and not necessarily the whole boat without probable cause, same for most state and local LE guys to.

While there is some loosely worded legislations saying they can, I believe there is just as much law saying they cant.

My USCG, assistance towing and cruising experience suggests what Kevin Sanders said to ring true...chances are in the US, unless you take the gun off the boat or use it, or brandish it....you will never run afoul of the law. Internationally...all bets off.
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Old 08-10-2016, 09:51 AM   #24
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Well.....theres a bit of a twist to that.

If the gun remains onboard and you are cruising, I believe there is case law that says your boat is your "domicile".
Unfortunately, no. Of course, I will be happy if you prove me wrong and quote a law confirming it.

I was stopped and boarded at the mouth of Detroit River a few years ago by a Border Protection patrol while sailing from Ohio to Michigan. Was asked whether there were firearms on board, and then was demanded to show a carry license.

I was curious about their right to ask for the license, investigated it and confirmed that according to Michigan law you indeed must have one (unless you are transporting an unloaded gun locked in a trunk).
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Old 08-10-2016, 10:01 AM   #25
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"Permits the interstate transportation of unloaded firearms by any person not prohibited by Federal law from such transportation regardless of any State law or regulation. "


https://www.congress.gov/bill/99th-c...senate-bill/49


but that's where it gets ugly...local and state authorities have been ignoring this and individual fights have been going on for years.


I had a local prosecutor return my gun in the face of HIM violating the state law. He believe the state aw to constitute an illegal search and SEIZURE...so he returned mine and others being held.


So I cant prove whether or not its legal better than anyone else since there is no "law" these days on guns. Too much emotion and politics.


The bottom line with law enforcement seems to be as much interaction and situation as "policy" or "law". Most of the time the situation is no situation at all. The other, you might have a legal fight to get your gun back....but that can be true of so many local laws each and all of us are unfamiliar with.
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Old 08-10-2016, 12:24 PM   #26
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"Permits the interstate transportation of unloaded firearms by any person not prohibited by Federal law from such transportation regardless of any State law or regulation. "


https://www.congress.gov/bill/99th-c...senate-bill/49
In theory, it should work for offshore passages in territorial waters, kind of an innocent passage thing. It will most likely not apply while traveling Erie Canal.
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Old 08-10-2016, 12:34 PM   #27
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"Permits the interstate transportation of unloaded firearms by any person not prohibited by Federal law from such transportation regardless of any State law or regulation. "
I know that is true when moving household to a new state. I just researched that as I am moving from Ct to Fl soon and will be transporting both firearms and ammo in my truck & trailer.
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Old 08-10-2016, 02:09 PM   #28
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In theory, it should work for offshore passages in territorial waters, kind of an innocent passage thing. It will most likely not apply while traveling Erie Canal.
Actually that statement is in that law on purpose to allow people to travel through states, free of having to follow local laws in order to hunt other states, carry states, etc.

I have been kedvto believe you are only allowed to stop for gas...not even lodging to make it palatable by tough states.

So cruising would be tough, but a boat is considered a house in some situations so the castle rule can apply.

That is why I said it can be an issue or not...depends a lot in when, where and how the stop goes.
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Old 08-10-2016, 03:47 PM   #29
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From the latest Passagemaker newsletter.

Jack Says ‘Yes’ To Guns On Board Yacht, Faces Charges in New York City | | PassageMaker
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Old 08-10-2016, 05:18 PM   #30
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Timely.....

Pretty chickenshi* of the USCG...really not their jurisdiction unless they have an agreement.

Shame when the feds give in to the locals and won't defend the federal law.

And no this isn't a political statement, just one of jurisdiction.

Hopefully I will hear the outcome...anyone hears of it...please post.
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Old 08-10-2016, 07:06 PM   #31
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The issue this thread (and its predecessors) seeks to address would not exist if USA had uniform gun laws. The conflict between state gun laws must be a nightmare for US TFers.
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Old 08-10-2016, 07:26 PM   #32
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The issue this thread (and its predecessors) seeks to address would not exist if USA had uniform gun laws. The conflict between state gun laws must be a nightmare for US TFers.
For most of our nation's history, we had only federal laws regarding guns. Those who couldn't impose their will at the federal level, then switched to the state level.

Gun laws and boat use taxes are 2 big bones of contention for those that want to cruise the USA.

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Old 08-10-2016, 08:33 PM   #33
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The issue this thread (and its predecessors) seeks to address would not exist if USA had uniform gun laws. The conflict between state gun laws must be a nightmare for US TFers.
No different than dozens of other things such as use of radar detectors or hand held cell phones or speed limits when driving. Or liquor laws, to name just a few. Boating is super simple in comparison.
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Old 08-10-2016, 08:45 PM   #34
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No different than dozens of other things such as use of radar detectors or hand held cell phones or speed limits when driving. Or liquor laws, to name just a few. Boating is super simple in comparison.
Relieved to hear it`s not really a problem after all.
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Old 08-10-2016, 09:58 PM   #35
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Firearms on the Great Loop Route laws and regs?

Being as I am from the fine state of Taxachusetts, and have a class A LTC I am mighty chagrined to hear my politicians rant about how 'safe' Mass is, and how the State Police are the finest in the land and don't accept ANY of the other 49 states authority as being on par as far as background check, record and database. One shining example of stupid is as stupid does. I NEVER carry into, through NYC. Mandatory sentence for anyone without NYC. Yes. CITY license for handgun.

Not that I would espouse it, But before you get to NJ waters, and until you clear the 5 boroughs dismantle and stow the handgun in separate areas of the boat. Then reassemble. Don't carry. The penalty is too great. But, on the other hand..... Don't stop in NJ or NYC. Don't give them your money.
NYC does NOT have a castle law regarding handguns. Mass does.
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Old 08-10-2016, 11:54 PM   #36
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Relieved to hear it`s not really a problem after all.
It applies to so many things. We're in a strange situation with so many state laws, some city laws, on top of federal laws. Most countries are more uniform across the country. Canada has some province differences. We were divided into states when distances were so great in time and communication. Now no state wants to relinquish rights. The relationship between states and federal really needs a major reworking but it's not going to happen. I don't own a gun, never have, never will, but I still sympathize with those who do and follow all laws trying to stay legal but then face issues of travel. This isn't just a boating issue either. People have issues in cars as well. They arrive at their destination and are subject to different laws. A question that we can't really answer and would require one to do many hours of research state by state is absurd. Laws should be simple and clear. Gun laws are the opposite.
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Old 08-11-2016, 02:59 AM   #37
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It applies to so many things. We're in a strange situation with so many state laws, some city laws, on top of federal laws. Most countries are more uniform across the country. Canada has some province differences. We were divided into states when distances were so great in time and communication. Now no state wants to relinquish rights. The relationship between states and federal really needs a major reworking but it's not going to happen. I don't own a gun, never have, never will, but I still sympathize with those who do and follow all laws trying to stay legal but then face issues of travel. This isn't just a boating issue either. People have issues in cars as well. They arrive at their destination and are subject to different laws. A question that we can't really answer and would require one to do many hours of research state by state is absurd. Laws should be simple and clear. Gun laws are the opposite.
Confusing, so how does all this state/federal jurisdiction squabble stack up against the oft mentioned second amendment.I assume US federal law trumps state law,with the constitution providing the guiding principles in codifying legislation, or maybe not?
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Old 08-11-2016, 04:24 AM   #38
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Confusing, so how does all this state/federal jurisdiction squabble stack up against the oft mentioned second amendment.I assume US federal law trumps state law,with the constitution providing the guiding principles in codifying legislation, or maybe not?
The problem becomes one of practicality.

A state legislative body can enact any law they want to enact. Even the US congress can enact any law they want to.

Then when someone gets charged under that law, they can challenge it, making in the case of firearms a claim that the law infringes on their 2nd ammendment right to keep and bear arms.

Until just a few years ago it was untested as to wether that 2nd ammendment right was vested in the individual or the state "militia". This question was answered by the US supreme court in District of Columbia Vs Heller (2008), in which the court found that the right to keep and bear arms is vested in the individual.

So...

From a practical standpoint until somebody actually tests wether a particular state law is valid, it is presumed to be valid, and in enforcable as such.

This gets even more interesting in the case of boats. For example a jurisdiction could have a statute in place allowing the possession of a loaded firearm in your home, but ban the possession in a vehicle. Then the question becomes wether a boat that you are living on represents your "home" or a "vehicle". There might even be case law where a court found that a boat is a vehicle, but until the specific question gets asked of a court as to wether a boat that you are actually living on is a "home" or a "Vehicle" then you could be charged under that statute for illegally possessing a firearm in a "vehicle" even though to you it is your "home".

You could also challenge the law by making a claim that a law banning possession of a loaded firearm in a "vehicle" infringes on your right to keep and bear arms.

Only time and dollars for legal fees will answer these questions.
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Old 08-11-2016, 05:27 AM   #39
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Confusing, so how does all this state/federal jurisdiction squabble stack up against the oft mentioned second amendment.I assume US federal law trumps state law,with the constitution providing the guiding principles in codifying legislation, or maybe not?
It doesn't conflict with the second amendment at all as long as their are provisions to allow people deemed safe to own firearms deemed safe. The second amendment by no means says anyone can have a gun wherever they want with no regulation. Also, the second amendment is about a militia being necessary for a free state/country. Well, we have military.

This is really no different than interpretations of the first amendment. First, the first amendment only says what Congress can do. Freedom of religious expression was the area covered with freedom of speech, the press, and the right to assemble following. However, freedom doesn't mean unlimited. One person's rights can infringe on the rights of others. The first example often mentioned when discussing freedom of speech is that you can't yell "fire" in a crowded theater. Seems common sense, but that's a limitation on speech just as you can't threaten bodily harm and you can't say things that violate other constitutional rights.
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Old 08-11-2016, 06:49 AM   #40
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"It doesn't conflict with the second amendment at all as long as their are provisions to allow people deemed safe to own firearms deemed safe"

I missed that , where is it written? Who deems who "safe".?

"The second amendment by no means says anyone can have a gun wherever they want with no regulation. Also, the second amendment is about a militia being necessary for a free state/country. Well, we have military. "

In that era the "militia" was EVERY male from 15 to about 50.

"Regulated" meant a weapon in good working condition , usually with a supply of powder and ball.

Word meanings change over 200+ years their Concept does not.
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